Wasted talent XV

[TRF_stormer2010]

Reading round these pages about guys like Sireli Bobo and Frans Steyn got me thinking who has the international game missed for the majority or best of their careers through whatever reason.

1
2 Schalk Brits / Craig Burden
3 Carl Hayman
4
5
6 Rocky Elsom
7 Steffon Armitage / Heinrich Brussow
8
9 Rory Kockott
10 Nick Evans
11 Sireli Bobo
12 Frans Steyn
13 Richard Kahui / what was that Auckland Blues utility back's name again?..
14 Rene Ranger
15 Isa Nacewa / Delon Armitage / Nick Abendanon

.. I se I'll have to think about a few and get back here. Who am I forgetting off the top of my head?

Frans Steyn at ~50 odd caps is possibly a strecth but in the modern era 50 caps in 10 years isn't lot as he has missed a lot of time in a green jersey. I could then add both Willem Alberts and Duane Vermeulen who had criminally long been overlooked... this might get tricky. Ben Smith on 40 caps at 29 could make this list then also.. Hmm. And I havn't even considered NH players so much yet apart from the obvious English ones at Toulon.

 

[goodNumber10]

are we only talking current players? Cause i got a few if not...


1
2 Schalk Brits / Craig Burden/John Olver
3 Carl Hayman
4
5 Simon Shaw
6
7 Steffon Armitage / Heinrich Brussow/Andy Robinson
8 Dean Richards
9 Nigel Melville/Rory Kockott
10 Nick Evans
11 Sireli Bobo
12 Frans Steyn
13 Richard Kahui / what was that Auckland Blues utility back's name again?..
14 Rene Ranger
15 Isa Nacewa / Delon Armitage / Nick Abendanon

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

4. Leo Cullen
6. Can Ferris count?

Only two Irish I can think of. That have played somewhat recently. A lot harder to think of forwards than backs!

 

[goodNumber10]

4. Leo Cullen
6. Can Ferris count?

Only two Irish I can think of. That have played somewhat recently. A lot harder to think of forwards than backs!

Ferris has to be in there.

Fitzgerald?

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

are we only talking current players? Cause i got a few if not...


1
2 Schalk Brits / Craig Burden/John Oliver
3 Carl Hayman
4
5 Simon Shaw
6
7 Steffon Armitage / Heinrich Brussow/Andy Robinson
8 Dean Richards
9 Nigel Melville/Rory Kockott
10 Nick Evans
11 Sireli Bobo
12 Frans Steyn
13 Richard Kahui / what was that Auckland Blues utility back's name again?..
14 Rene Ranger
15 Isa Nacewa / Delon Armitage / Nick Abendanon

That cracks the door wide open LOL! I think I'll stick to 'could concievably still be playing' and use Victor Matfields' 39 as a yardstick.

At lock I think SA's Francois van der Merwe, Gerhard Mostert and Juandre Kruger have been unlucky not to have seen much (or any) time at test level. Ernst Joubert at 8 maybe. Francois Louw another one who could have had more test caps.

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4. Leo Cullen
6. Can Ferris count?

Only two Irish I can think of. That have played somewhat recently. A lot harder to think of forwards than backs!

Ferris is a auto-pick. The fact I didn't think of him just highlights the issue.

Francois Trin... come to think of it I'm not even going to go down the French route there have been so many good players sitting on the sidelines.

 

[goodNumber10]

That cracks the door wide open LOL! I think I'll stick to 'could concievably still be playing' and use Victor Matfields' 39 as a yardstick.

At lock I think SA's Francois van der Merwe, Gerhard Mostert and Juandre Kruger have been unlucky not to have seen much (or any) time at test level. Ernst Joubert at 8 maybe. Francois Louw another one who could have had more test caps.

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Ferris is a auto-pick. The fact I didn't think of him just highlights the issue.

Francois Trin... come to think of it I'm not even going to go down the French route there have been so many good players sitting on the sidelines.

fair enough:

Cipriani at 10
Kvesic? & Robshaw at 7/6 (robshaw should have been playing in the last world cup)
Simon Shaw for certain. (though it feels kind of wrong saying a 71 test player was a wasted talent)

Mathew Tait?

 

[big ginger 8]

4. Leo Cullen
6. Can Ferris count?

Only two Irish I can think of. That have played somewhat recently. A lot harder to think of forwards than backs!

I think I'd add Fitzgerald and Earls.

Someone else who might be borderline is Eoin O'Malley, really could have been special.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

fair enough:

Cipriani at 10
Kvesic? & Robshaw at 7/6 (robshaw should have been playing in the last world cup)
Simon Shaw for certain. (though it feels kind of wrong saying a 71 test player was a wasted talent)

Mathew Tait?

All good shouts.

I think I'll let it run a while, see who cares to thrw in a few more candidates and update the OP later on.. maybe get a poll going. We'll see how she goes.

Toeava! Thats wh I was thinking of. Isaia Toeava. 35 caps, a lot of them (if not most of them) off the bench.. a waste of his talent IMO but there'll be a lot of NZ backs (midfielders esp with Nonu/Smith being a fixture for so long- I mean Kahui only has 17 caps!! So much class and only 17 caps between his injuries and Nonu/Smith there) that could feature here. SA has also had the same in the lock department where Botha/Matfield had it sewn up for a long time. Andries Bekker and the others I've mentioned all could've achieved more on the test stage with more chances IMO.

 

[YoungScud]

Roddy Grant

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Kvesic?

Christ, hes like 23/24 isn't he?
I know people like to shoe horn him into every conversation but saying he's a wasted talent is laughable.

 

[goodNumber10]

Christ, hes like 23/24 isn't he?
I know people like to shoe horn him into every conversation but saying he's a wasted talent is laughable.

well quite.

 

[Mumbles119]

James Simpson-Daniel

It depends if we are looking at the reason for being a wasted talent is due to non-selection, or non-availability like the very injury prone James Simpson Daniel?

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

James Simpson-Daniel

It depends if we are looking at the reason for being a wasted talent is due to non-selection, or non-availability like the very injury prone James Simpson Daniel?

Well I suppose that's up in air.

My thoughts were running along the lines of:
- unavailability due to restrictions on foreign based players (Armitage etc)
- injury (Kahui etc)
- simply not in favor of current/past coaches (Brussow etc)
- a class act but in behind other players (Nick Evans etc)
- picking club over country (Nacewa? I know there'll be a few PI players)
- other (Bobo)

Generally, I'm looking for guys who are approaching the end of their careers or have just finished that didn't reach their percieved potential in test rugby.

 

[TRF_heineken]

Heinke van der Merwe, Nick Abendanon, Sam Tuipolotu, Yannick Nyanga

 

[dullonien]

From a Welsh perspective:

Gareth Delve. Could have been something quite special, but injury and playing abroad prevented that.
Justin Tipuric. A bit early in his career to say he hasn't reached his potential, but he's been behind Warburton thus far. One of the most gifted rugby players around, and he struggles to get a start!
Dwayne Peel. Similar to Shaw, seems a little silly to be saying that a 70 something cap player didn't reach his potential, but he was cast aside earlier than he probably should have been.
James Hook. Never got going under Gatland really. Again 70+ caps, but still not close to fulfilling the potential he showed at the beginning of his career.
Gavin Henson. For a multitude of reasons he didn't get anywhere close to fulfilling his true potential.

There's probably a ton of NZers that could fall under this category. The likes of Xavier Rush, Ben Blair, Regan King, Marty Holah that were involved with Welsh regions for a start. Some of those probably fall wide of the criteria though....

 

[goodNumber10]

From a Welsh perspective:

Gareth Delve. Could have been something quite special, but injury and playing abroad prevented that.
Justin Tipuric. A bit early in his career to say he hasn't reached his potential, but he's been behind Warburton thus far. One of the most gifted rugby players around, and he struggles to get a start!
Dwayne Peel. Similar to Shaw, seems a little silly to be saying that a 70 something cap player didn't reach his potential, but he was cast aside earlier than he probably should have been.
James Hook. Never got going under Gatland really. Again 70+ caps, but still not close to fulfilling the potential he showed at the beginning of his career.
Gavin Henson. For a multitude of reasons he didn't get anywhere close to fulfilling his true potential.

There's probably a ton of NZers that could fall under this category. The likes of Xavier Rush, Ben Blair, Regan King, Marty Holah that were involved with Welsh regions for a start. Some of those probably fall wide of the criteria though....

spot on

 

[ratsapprentice]

Delve always struck me as a guy with the strength of character required to be a very good coach/manager if he has the requisite technical ability. Anyone know whether it's something he's pursuing?

 

[dullonien]

Delve always struck me as a guy with the strength of character required to be a very good coach/manager if he has the requisite technical ability. Anyone know whether it's something he's pursuing?

Not sure yet. He's with the Ospreys this season as a player, so we'll see after that I suppose.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Caucau must be a candidate thanks to his lack of focus / commitment - just seven Fiji caps is a terrible return given that he was a human highlight reel with Blues.

From England, how about Jeff Probyn (strange as it sounds, but Simon Shaw has been mentioned)? He had a pretty damn decent career, but his record could have been ridiculous (compared to his peers) had he been selected before the age of 31. Also, how about Ben Sturnham? He exploded onto the scene in the late nineties and won three caps on the 1998 Tour of Hell, but after this failed to really establish himself on the club scene talk about as an international - one of the most ridiculous athletes English rugby has ever produced.

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Another (possibly somewhat biased) English shout - Bert Solomon. His face didn't fit in English rugby circles at the time, but he was eventually selected in 1910 and scored a try against Wales, winning the plaudits of rugby journalists of the day along the way. However he found himself out of place among his team mates and declined further caps. Adrian Stoop thought enough of him to visit him (complete with entourage) and present him with (IIRC) a whisky glass while visiting Cornwall. He is anecdotally credited with inventing the dummy.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Caucau must be a candidate thanks to his lack of focus / commitment - just seven Fiji caps is a terrible return given that he was a human highlight reel with Blues.

From England, how about Jeff Probyn (strange as it sounds, but Simon Shaw has been mentioned)? He had a pretty damn decent career, but his record could have been ridiculous (compared to his peers) had he been selected before the age of 31. Also, how about Ben Sturnham? He exploded onto the scene in the late nineties and won three caps on the 1998 Tour of Hell, but after this failed to really establish himself on the club scene talk about as an international - one of the most ridiculous athletes English rugby has ever produced.

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Another (possibly somewhat biased) English shout - Bert Solomon. His face didn't fit in English rugby circles at the time, but he was eventually selected in 1910 and scored a try against Wales, winning the plaudits of rugby journalists of the day along the way. However he found himself out of place among his team mates and declined further caps. Adrian Stoop thought enough of him to visit him (complete with entourage) and present him with (IIRC) a whisky glass while visiting Cornwall. He is anecdotally credited with inventing the dummy.

Oh, my. I've been saying 'Bobo' instead of 'Caucau'. I guess that again just serves to illustrate that his name is not as ingrained as it shoud/could be.