Wasted talent XV

[TheSaffycen]

1.Corbisiero -One year without injury was a Lions winning player
2.Brits -is more than fair enough
3.Census Johnston Only- 47 Samoa caps for one of the worlds best tightheads.
4.
5.
6.Ferris
7.Seymour- No England Caps but always performed at club level
8.Spies- Amazing player but injuries stopped him being a great.
9.Hougaard ? He looked so good when he burst on but never reached potential.
10.Evans Again in the shadow of greatness
11.Gear - Only 14 Caps !!
12.
13.Henson- Bit of a prick but so talented
14.Ranger- Could be just not enough talent but surely better than 6 caps
15.Hernandez- 53 caps is a lot but considering was the best full back in the world in 2007.

 

[RedruthRFC]

Would it be facetious to add Sergio Parisse's name to the list? He commands huge respect in rugby circles, but surely would have won many more plaudits if he was born in a top 4 nation. Such a shame he couldn't find a Kiwi granny - in his pomp he would have been amazing to watch in Super rugby and for the ABs.

 

[Peat]

I'd throw out Nick Duncombe's name for 9. Already internationally capped when he died of meningitis at the age of 21 (I think) - crazily enough he could have been England's scrum-half this world cup.

I'd also argue for Tom Rees being a good shout for openside, Jamie Forrester at 8... gods, you could probably do an incredibly one from just England, Hobson and Blaze at lock, Varndell on the wing...


Might be interesting to try and split this into four XVs and see which one is stronger.

The first being players who were let down by injury - guys like Ferris, Rees, even arguably Wilkinson and Thompson

The second being players let down by their personalities - Caucau, Delon Armitage, Guildford, Hartley

The third being players who missed out due to international selection criteria - the Armitages, Nacewa fooled into committing for Fiji, half of New Zealand, also guys like Brussow and half of France who didn't get picked for bewildering reasons

And the fourth being players who missed out due to being behind international legends despite huge amounts of talent themselves - Simon Shaw, Johann Muller, Paddy Wallace, and again half of New Zealand. Might be some overlap between this and above to say the least.

I think I'd add Fitzgerald and Earls.

Someone else who might be borderline is Eoin O'Malley, really could have been special.

Fitzgerald and Earls haven't had the easiest rides sure enough, but I feel like we saw enough of them and will see enough more of them for them to be footnotes in the discussion.

Without wishing to be provincial, Nevin Spence would be the only Irish back I'd press for - he was born to play international rugby yet never got on the pitch at all.

O'Malley was a great shame and so too McKinley, and I've never heard an Ulster fan who didn't have a huge amount of respect for David Pollock, then there's Fez and all, but Spence I think stands as the biggest waste of all.

 

[psychic duck]

From a Welsh perspective:

Gareth Delve. Could have been something quite special, but injury and playing abroad prevented that.
Justin Tipuric. A bit early in his career to say he hasn't reached his potential, but he's been behind Warburton thus far. One of the most gifted rugby players around, and he struggles to get a start!
Dwayne Peel. Similar to Shaw, seems a little silly to be saying that a 70 something cap player didn't reach his potential, but he was cast aside earlier than he probably should have been.
James Hook. Never got going under Gatland really. Again 70+ caps, but still not close to fulfilling the potential he showed at the beginning of his career.
Gavin Henson. For a multitude of reasons he didn't get anywhere close to fulfilling his true potential.

Actually Peel and Henson did fulfil their potential in a sense. Henson may not have reached his potential in terms of being a 100 cap player, but he did when he was on the pitch as as a two time Grand Slam winning Lions starter, who reached the very top and his potential as one of the best in the world at 12, albeit not for very long. Likewise Peel, although discarded too early, achieved more than 90% of British & Irish scrum halves. Hard to say he didn't reach his potential. Tipuric also isn't underachieving, he just has a phenomenal player ahead of him at international, doesn't mean he's not playing to his potential. None of those are players who wasted away talent not focusing and failing to kick on.

The only two on this list who actually underachieved in the sense of performances for Wales are Hook and Delve. The former because he insisted on playing in his worst position at 10. The latter because he simply didn't really seem to want to play for Wales, and opted to jet over the world to Melbourne Rebels or Japan instead.

Also people mentioning Isa Nacewa on this thread. He was in the Schmidt era possibly the best utility back in Europe. Just because he didn't play international rugby, doesn't mean he wasted and didn't fulfil his talent and potential.

This reads more like a 'should have played more at international level' thread, than a 'players who wasted their talent' thread. Players who waste their talent are often players who find things too easy and go off the rails and lose focus, or talents who just don't reach their potential with injury. Not 70+ capped Lions starting Grand Slam winners.

 

[RedruthRFC]

This reads more like a 'should have played more at international level' thread, than a 'players who wasted their talent' thread. Players who waste their talent are often players who find things too easy and go off the rails and lose focus, or talents who just don't reach their potential with injury. Not 70+ capped Lions starting Grand Slam winners.

IMO a player with the potential to win 100+ caps and be regarded as a all time great who wins 70+ and doesn't fall into that category is indeed (for whatever reason) a waste of talent.

Maybe OP can clarify exactly what he means by "wasted talent".

 

[nickdnz]

A few come to mind that haven't been mentioned:

Aled de Malmanche: For a time was probably the best hooker in New Zealand besides lineout throwing which cost him a great career. He was a great ball carrier, extremely good scrummager and physical defender. Managed only 5 games.
Lelia Masaga: Was in my opinion the most devastating winger with ball in hand in Super Rugby from 2008-2013. Managed only one test for New Zealand before being dropped due to potentially some defensive issues.
Rico Gear: May have recently retired - for a guy who still holds the records for tries in a Super Rugby season, he only managed 19 games for the All Blacks, missing out on all RWC. Hosea is also pretty unlucky, but for Rico you have to think it is some terrible luck he had to try and get a spot with Rokocoko, Howlett, Sivivatu and Muliaina all established.
Daniel Braid: In most countries I think he would have had a very long and success career as a first choice 7.
Scott Waldrom: Very underrated 7 in my opinion. Broken backs and necks always broke his momentum - and thus only managed 1 cap for New Zealand.
Luke McAlister: He could have been to the 12 jersey for the All Blacks, what Daniel Carter was in the 10. Leaving in 2007 was a huge mistake, and he never got the chance on his return.
Jason Eaton: In 2005 he had one of the best seasons of any lock in New Zealand. After a leg injury he never really got back his form.

 

[Mcfadden]

A few come to mind that haven't been mentioned:

Aled de Malmanche: For a time was probably the best hooker in New Zealand besides lineout throwing which cost him a great career. He was a great ball carrier, extremely good scrummager and physical defender. Managed only 5 games.

I was going to say Aled as well. Unfortunately not really good enough throwing the ball in straight to ever be the incumbent. But man, could he break tackles. Kinda like for a period of time how you can always bet Andrew Hore would turn the ball over if he got over top of it, you could guarantee de Malmanche would bust through the first tackle. Often the second and third as well.

I heard when he went to Europe he would be eligible to play for Wales? But obviously never eventuated. Does anyone ever remember Ti'i Paulo who played for the Crusaders? I always thought he could have been big. It was frustrating at the time that he didn't get more time on the field, but he was playing second fiddle to Cory Flynn.

Also agree and was thinking the same Re: McAlister. He did a bit of a Ranger in the sense that when he left, he was in tremendous form. It was such a shame at the time.

I won't add many others to the list, but I do want to mention Richard Kahui. If there is one guy who could have challenged Conrad Smith for the 13 jersey over the years, it's him. Kahui has the speed, skill and could flatten guys with tackles. At the 2011 World Cup the All Blacks were very fortunate to have him in the mix, but I wish I could have watched his international career take a more consistent shape. Maybe not as astute as Conrad defensively (Smith's tackles are text book most of the time), but I'll take a risk and say Kahui, when at his best, had the better offensive skills. When I watched the Lions vs Wikato final in 2006 I knew he was a very special player.

 

[dullonien]

Actually Peel and Henson did fulfil their potential in a sense. Henson may not have reached his potential in terms of being a 100 cap player, but he did when he was on the pitch as as a two time Grand Slam winning Lions starter, who reached the very top and his potential as one of the best in the world at 12, albeit not for very long. Likewise Peel, although discarded too early, achieved more than 90% of British & Irish scrum halves. Hard to say he didn't reach his potential. Tipuric also isn't underachieving, he just has a phenomenal player ahead of him at international, doesn't mean he's not playing to his potential. None of those are players who wasted away talent not focusing and failing to kick on.

The only two on this list who actually underachieved in the sense of performances for Wales are Hook and Delve. The former because he insisted on playing in his worst position at 10. The latter because he simply didn't really seem to want to play for Wales, and opted to jet over the world to Melbourne Rebels or Japan instead.

Also people mentioning Isa Nacewa on this thread. He was in the Schmidt era possibly the best utility back in Europe. Just because he didn't play international rugby, doesn't mean he wasted and didn't fulfil his talent and potential.

This reads more like a 'should have played more at international level' thread, than a 'players who wasted their talent' thread. Players who waste their talent are often players who find things too easy and go off the rails and lose focus, or talents who just don't reach their potential with injury. Not 70+ capped Lions starting Grand Slam winners.

I see what your saying, and it's easy to agree, but I think potential can stand for more personally.

Take Henson, he's never been to the WC, and never played an integral part of a Lions tour (2005 doesn't count as he played second fiddle to an out of position Wilkinson, for some unknown reason). He had the talent to do both.

Whilst it's true that he was part of 2 grand slam winning sides, he could, and probably should have been part of at least 2 more.

Definitely capable of more Imo.

 

[TobesHodges]

Haha I like this, can you do a "Cut from the World Cup XV" as well.

Elton Jantjes, Danny Cipriani, patriounoud(France full back), Parrisse(internationally), Kahui to name a few..

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

IMO a player with the potential to win 100+ caps and be regarded as a all time great who wins 70+ and doesn't fall into that category is indeed (for whatever reason) a waste of talent.

Maybe OP can clarify exactly what he means by "wasted talent".

Yeah, maybe I didn't put what I meant as succinctly as I could have.

My intention was to, in quite broad terms, consider who (at close to the end of their carreers) could've concievably been pushing for 'legend' status and be close enough to that magical 100 cap mark had it not been for some of the reasons mentioned previously limiting their involvement in specifically test rugby (which I see as the pinnacle of the game still- that's a whole different topic that one).

A guy I feel could fit into that category that hasn't been mentioned yet is Fourie du Preez. At his best he had a horror run of injuries, came back in time for the 2011 RWC but wasn't at his best and went missing in Japan thereafter and injured on and off in the meantime (along with contractua obligations) limiting his involvement to date. 70 caps seems a lot but it could've been 130 and legend status were it not for injury. We've missed him.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't think you can count Parisse as wasted talent - over 100 international caps, captains his country.

If you start saying they're wasted because they don't play for a higher placed nation you're in dangerous territory - is Stuart Hogg a wasted talent because he plays for Scotland and not New Zealand?

 

[Horacito]

Sergio Parisse could have played for Argentina, he just didn't want to. He would have had to go through some rough years, but he could be now in the perspective of getting a pretty exciting WC instead of group stage WC and going home. He is probably a patriotic man, which is perfectly respectable.

Hernández to me wasn't wasted potential, he had too many injuries. Also, he wasn't best fullback in 2007, he was best fly half of the year.

By that standard Johnny Wilkinson would be a load of wasted talent, with all those injuries who didn't allowed him (or us, for the case) enjoy his prime years with national team, or even go further than his peak at 24 years old at WC 2003.

 

[ZeroTwo]

I don't think you can count Parisse as wasted talent - over 100 international caps, captains his country.

If you start saying they're wasted because they don't play for a higher placed nation you're in dangerous territory - is Stuart Hogg a wasted talent because he plays for Scotland and not New Zealand?

You won't be saying that after we win the world cup.

 

[goodNumber10]

Sergio Parisse could have played for Argentina, he just didn't want to. He would have had to go through some rough years, but he could be now in the perspective of getting a pretty exciting WC instead of group stage WC and going home. He is probably a patriotic man, which is perfectly respectable.

Hernández to me wasn't wasted potential, he had too many injuries. Also, he wasn't best fullback in 2007, he was best fly half of the year.

By that standard Johnny Wilkinson would be a load of wasted talent, with all those injuries who didn't allowed him (or us, for the case) enjoy his prime years with national team, or even go further than his peak at 24 years old at WC 2003.

I agree with you about Hernandez being the best 10 in the world at the time.

 

[McTallshort]

Jeff probyn should have played in the 93 lions but lost out to horse trading. Also Ben Clarke quite possibly one of the best back row players of the 90s but made a bad choice when the game went pro

 

[Irish boy]

James Forrester could have been unreal another Dan Ward Smith.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Anthony Allen @12 was criminally wasted esp as at the time England had a crap 12 selection policy.

 

[TobesHodges]

Mauro Bergamasco at 9 was a wasted talent.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Berrick Barnes possibly ? I really rate the guy but just so much Aussie talent at 10/12/15 means he got 51 caps. Or is that about his level ? If he was English he probably would've had 90+

 

[Rich Taff]

If we can add a 'dumbass, deluded, makes me want to rip of my own arm, (just to have something to beat her with and shut her up), ex-opera singer, ruined his career and young life - wife' category, then Henson is no.1