• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

Why don't we just make our own rugby game

TRF_Olyy

English Arrogance
Staff member
TRF Legend
TRF Supporter
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
100,000,898
Reaction score
6,241
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Sale

Rugby League Live developers were BigBen Interactive - agree those games are probably the best. However I was talking about Alternative Software.
Maybe Alternative Software did distribution for them in the NH as well?
 

Balmer483

Academy Player
Joined
Jul 28, 2020
Messages
13
Reaction score
2
Maybe Alternative Software did distribution for them in the NH as well?
So if you made a rugby game a bigger company would distribute it for you? You think they do that for a fee of the overall sales?
 

nik

Academy Player
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
204
Reaction score
14
Maybe Alternative Software did distribution for them in the NH as well?
I think you are right, they are the distributors in UK for RLL games. Also seems to be for Rugby Champions. Sorry I thought they were developers of Rugby Champions, but instead its Biological Systems Modeling. They are a 2 man operation apparently.
 

Balmer483

Academy Player
Joined
Jul 28, 2020
Messages
13
Reaction score
2
I think you are right, they are the distributors in UK for RLL games. Also seems to be for Rugby Champions. Sorry I thought they were developers of Rugby Champions, but instead its Biological Systems Modeling. They are a 2 man operation apparently.
Whats you opinion on making a game like this from this base?
 

nik

Academy Player
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
204
Reaction score
14
My opinion is these guys at Biological Systems Modelling are already doing it - for some time. I haven't played Rugby Champions but I have seen videos and it's seems to do the basics very well - but it is very basic in terms of graphics licenses etc. Its better to team up with these guys and to take things to the next level than starting something new from scratch. I believe these guys are also on the forum.

 

ncurd

International
TRF Legend
Joined
Feb 7, 2015
Messages
8,397
Reaction score
2,152
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Bath

Basic maths is you are in the know haha
So how many years experience would you need to work on a game like this? Also could you do it with 25 people?
Say we start it, get the funding build it for a year. Is there potential to sell that to a larger company so it gets completed by them in the 3 year mark and still have the bones of the project?

If so it is closer to 1 million quid for staff. Once again the largest game funded on kickstarter was 12 million, and it was only a board game. Kickstarter is just one funding source. Would you work on a rugby game?
As someone who plays a lot of board games (and actually knows board game developers some of whom use kickstarter, also I've backed a few games). There's a huge amount that goes into them before time to KS.

Basically 99% of the time all the KS is paying for is the production runs the entire development of the game has already been done. This isn't just I have an idea, usually they've designed the entire thing. Sent out dev copies for board agme reviewers to try out and generally have the entire rulebook already on hand. People who play a lot of board games will generally read a rulebook before buying a game to understand if its something they like and therefore know if its something worth backing. As noted most successful ones all they realy paying for is manufacture of the games.

This also doesn't stop it not being business where most people are barely making a profit and alot of KS are about keeping companies a float and delivering the previous KS rather than the current one due to misunderestimates.

I wouldn't work in the computer games business, one I don't have the experience and that ship sailed a long time ago for me. Two the business practices are questionable at best. And lastly I'm quite comfortable where I am, I can work from home, post ******** on TRF, watch a test match in the background and as long as I'm meeting my deadlines in terms of the overall program my life is quite easy. I'd rather be successful and continue what I'm doing than risk it all. Plus in terms of jobs satisfaction for an experienced software developer it actually doesn't matter if you into the 'product' the actual problem solving in the day to day is where the fun is regardless of what its for.Either way I get to work with satellites.
 

ncurd

International
TRF Legend
Joined
Feb 7, 2015
Messages
8,397
Reaction score
2,152
Country Flag

England

Club or Nation

Bath

BTW should also add when you factor into indirect bookers (people who don't bill time to accounts) and all the other people you hire into a company and verheads even if you do encourage home working. Officially I cost £120/hr I don't see even a quarter of that.
 

Balmer483

Academy Player
Joined
Jul 28, 2020
Messages
13
Reaction score
2
BTW should also add when you factor into indirect bookers (people who don't bill time to accounts) and all the other people you hire into a company and verheads even if you do encourage home working. Officially I cost £120/hr I don't see even a quarter of that.
I have a fair understanding of the obstacles so that helps.

So what you are saying we need is
1. A demo
2. a business plan to account for overheads
3. market hype
4. the right people
5.funding

Is that a fair summary?
 

MojoPin

Academy Player
Joined
Sep 30, 2014
Messages
317
Reaction score
6
Country Flag

Wales

Club or Nation

Cardiff

I work in the games industry so it's definitely interesting to see the conversation here! Even small projects are a very big undertaking though as others have said. With the right people though, technically anything is possible.

For what it's worth, I'd say the best place to start is with a rock solid concept/outline of what you want to accomplish, otherwise it's very difficult to figure out what kind of budget, resources etc you'd need. Things you'd need to consider would include:

1. Overview of the game - what style are you going for and how does the core gameplay loop work? For example, are you going for a Rugby 08/Rugby Challenge esque 3D game or a 2D management game, etc.
2. What levels of polish are you aiming for? Graphics, physics/engine, sound, licences, gameplay modes - be specific and detailed.
3. Who are you targeting? And "rugby fans" isn't a good enough answer - need to show an understanding of the gaming landscape and the audiences within it.
4. Produce some concept art and/or renders to illustrate everything you're talking about
5. What personnel do you have available and what else would you need to achieve everything outlined in this document?
6. Target platforms.
7. USP - unique selling point
8. Market analysis - what's the current state of rugby games? What are their strengths, weaknesses and commercial performance? How does this project compare to those and how doe sit set itself apart? How many potential customers are there?
9. Finances - how much do you need to deliver the project and how will it be spent?

Probably forgetting a few other things as this is just off the top of my head from pitching documents I've seen, but you get the idea. I guess what I'm saying is that the game needs to exist in a theoretical form before anything else can be planned or done. Gameplay systems and positioning need to be thought out carefully.
 

HB_AJ

Academy Player
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
140
Reaction score
1
Country Flag

Canada

Club or Nation

England

How hard could it be?!

Happened to open the TRF email digest and see this post. Have to admit, it put a smile on my face.

I do miss the banter of this site. Watching the anticipation and reception of Rugby06 remains one of my greatest memories.

Good luck with the game!!

Top tip: be careful building Rugby AI from scratch and make sure you have the best mocap team in the world if you plan to capture 16 players at once.

Oh yeah, and when you’re picking your cover athlete make sure you pick the England player who will kick an iconic championship clinching drop goal at the death. Makes all the difference.

;-)

PS. No longer at HB, but can’t be arsed to change the username. Hope you’re all well!
 

Mario

Academy Player
Joined
Jun 1, 2004
Messages
234
Reaction score
9
Newsletter and this thread brought me back too.

How hard could it be? Super hard. Rugby games are about the most complicated sports game you can make, with a market size that can't support a budget the same level as top tier sports games, but with a fan base that demands that level of quality.

Good luck on your journey.
 

GPRed

Academy Player
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Messages
149
Reaction score
46
Country Flag

New Zealand

Club or Nation

Boston

Hi Guys, I'm one of the two developers that made Rugby Champions. Our basic philosophy was that Rugby games, after a promising start have not really produced gameplay that captured the sport. And so we decided to focus on gameplay.

People love great graphics and these get priority, since good cut scenes and visuals sell games. Unfortunately, with a smaller market than sports like football and American football, this tends to consume the budget leaving little leftover for AI and gameplay. The result is you get stuck in the loop of good graphics with each upgrade but gameplay that doesn't really change.

This is compounded by the fact that rugby is a complex sport and hard to program gameplay. No doubt about that!

Our idea was to develop the gameplay and drop the graphics in when budget allowed, and continually improve the game based on community feedback to essentially develop the great game we all want together over time.

We aren't claiming we are all the way there with the gameplay, there is plenty of room for improvement over time. But many people who have taken the time to learn the controls have said it is the best gameplay experience they have had in a rugby game, and that has been really exciting. Given that we have achieved this with a team of two, I think we could do something amazing with the resources utilised by other rugby games.

It's not as difficult as it once was to create great graphics, so we look forward to improving that aspect of the game when resources allow. Given our head start on the gameplay, we could certainly do it for less than the million pounds suggested :)

I think without a continual loop of community feedback and developers that love the game, a truly great rugby game may never be made. That's the key to overcoming the budget limitations in my opinion.
 
Last edited:

nik

Academy Player
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
204
Reaction score
14
Hi Guys, I'm one of the two developers that made Rugby Champions. Our basic philosophy was that Rugby games, after a promising start have not really produced gameplay that captured the sport. And so we decided to focus on gameplay.

People love great graphics and these get priority, since good cut scenes and visuals sell games. Unfortunately, with a smaller market than sports like football and American football, this tends to consume the budget leaving little leftover for AI and gameplay. The result is you get stuck in the loop of good graphics with each upgrade but gameplay that doesn't really change.

This is compounded by the fact that rugby is a complex sport and hard to program gameplay. No doubt about that!

Our idea was to develop the gameplay and drop the graphics in when budget allowed, and continually improve the game based on community feedback to essentially develop the great game we all want together over time.

We aren't claiming we are all the way there with the gameplay, there is plenty of room for improvement over time. But many people who have taken the time to learn the controls have said it is the best gameplay experience they have had in a rugby game, and that has been really exciting. Given that we have achieved this with a team of two, I think we could do something amazing with the resources utilised by other rugby games.

It's not as difficult as it once was to create great graphics, so we look forward to improving that aspect of the game when resources allow. Given our head start on the gameplay, we could certainly do it for less than the million pounds suggested :)

I think without a continual loop of community feedback and developers that love the game, a truly great rugby game may never be made. That's the key to overcoming the budget limitations in my opinion.
You guys have developed a promising game gameplay wise. Hopefully we see Rugby champions 2 on console.
 

Woldog

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Sep 23, 2008
Messages
1,696
Reaction score
252
Country Flag

Australia

Club or Nation

Reds

TRF is in the credits for Rugby 2011, so technically we did all make(/contribute) to a rugby game.
Case closed.


But yeah, game development is...........a big task. Monumental, in fact.
It's not something you can just stumble into and to crowdsource it? Crazy amounts of money, and even then you only have to look at the number of kickstarts that go belly up



Edit:
View attachment 8313
There are 6 members of TRF in the credits of RC4.

People don't understand some simple things about rugby when compared to other AAA sports games

Madden - Amazing Graphics, 2nd to none realism on plays. But every complete play it resets everyone. So the game essentially is about making single set plays for both teams. Much easier than rugby that is free flowing and at times completely random.

NBA 2K series - Basketball has is easy 5 on 5 anyone who has played the game knows how easy it was to trick the AI into coming of their man that they had to ruin the pick and roll mechanic to make it harder.

Fifa - No idea never played it.

Rugby never stops unless there is a breakdown in play, you have to program 15 players to think for themselves, to plug gaps, to know when to push in for forward drives, when to drop back for kicks. It's not that simple. Anyone who thinks we can just "Make a game" is dreaming. As @Mario said it's not as easy as people think and he developed the original Rugby Challenge in 2011(? I think it came out then maybe). Every single rugby game gets **** on for the same reasons everytime.

Rugby 20 - crap graphics, not enough licences. Too simulation like not enough fun factor

Rugby Challenge 4 - Too much focus on graphics, too similar to RC3. Not enough simulation, not enough licences.

Then you get the ultimate dreamers

Why doesn't RC4 and Rugby 20 just join their games, Why doesn't resident overlords EA come back and make a game. The answer for every question in this thread is money. More money better game. But who wants to put money into a game that won't make any money back when it either gets ripped on by the fans or it just gets pirated on PC?
 
Last edited:

TRF_heineken

RIP #J9
TRF Legend
TRF Supporter
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
11,375
Reaction score
1,240
Country Flag

South Africa

Club or Nation

South Africa

There are 6 members of TRF in the credits of RC4.

People don't understand some simple things about rugby when compared to other AAA sports games

Madden - Amazing Graphics, 2nd to none realism on plays. But every complete play it resets everyone. So the game essentially is about making single set plays for both teams. Much easier than rugby that is free flowing and at times completely random.

NBA 2K series - Basketball has is easy 5 on 5 anyone who has played the game knows how easy it was to trick the AI into coming of their man that they had to ruin the pick and roll mechanic to make it harder.

Fifa - No idea never played it.

Rugby never stops unless there is a breakdown in play, you have to program 15 players to think for themselves, to plug gaps, to know when to push in for forward drives, when to drop back for kicks. It's not that simple. Anyone who thinks we can just "Make a game" is dreaming. As @Mario said it's not as easy as people think and he developed the original Rugby Challenge in 2011(? I think it came out then maybe). Every single rugby game gets **** on for the same reasons everytime.

Rugby 20 - crap graphics, not enough licences. Too simulation like not enough fun factor

Rugby Challenge 4 - Too much focus on graphics, too similar to RC3. Not enough simulation, not enough licences.

Then you get the ultimate dreamers

Why doesn't RC4 and Rugby 20 just join their games, Why doesn't resident overlords EA come back and make a game. The answer for every question in this thread is money. More money better game. But who wants to put money into a game that won't make any money back when it either gets ripped on by the fans or it just gets pirated on PC?
I hear you. And you do have valid points to make here. But surely if the sport is growing as much as it is the past couple of years, then surely the market for a game would also grow?

Has any of the game developers done the market research on this the past 5 years or so? The reason why the sales of these games are so poor, is because the marketing of the games are non-existent. There is definitely a hunger to have a proper, well engineered, finished product. But the morale of the rugby gamers are so low, because the companies making the current crop, just keeps on dishing out the same crappy stuff, and just edits a few things here and there, and expect the public to pay big bucks for a below par product.

The reason why people are mentioning these games you listed above (mostly FIFA and Madden), is because they continuously improve their games, and continuously sell the product to the masses. I know Rugby might not have such a big following as these sports have, and the funding does play a major role, I get that. The suggestion was that EA has the models already in place, and they can use these models as a basis to work from, and take it from there. By saying this, a Company like EA, can save a lot of money.

But If they don't want to do it, we will have to look at maybe PES, 2K Sports, Acitvision or even some Japanese companies on the bandwagon especially after the success of last year's world cup in Japan.

The only way any South African would know that RC4 is out now, is if they are on this forum, or follows RC on facebook. THAT"S IT.

It's not showing or premiering on PSN, you have to search for it specifically, to even see it.
 

Mario

Academy Player
Joined
Jun 1, 2004
Messages
234
Reaction score
9
The reason why the sales of these games are so poor, is because the marketing of the games are non-existent.
The reason is the market for rugby games is actually nowhere near as big as you think.

But the morale of the rugby gamers are so low, because the companies making the current crop, just keeps on dishing out the same crappy stuff, and just edits a few things here and there, and expect the public to pay big bucks for a below par product.
The reason why people are mentioning these games you listed above (mostly FIFA and Madden), is because they continuously improve their games, and continuously sell the product to the masses. I know Rugby might not have such a big following as these sports have, and the funding does play a major role, I get that. The suggestion was that EA has the models already in place, and they can use these models as a basis to work from, and take it from there. By saying this, a Company like EA, can save a lot of money.
You praise EA for an iterative approach while admonishing rugby game developers for doing the same.

In any case, if there was meaningful money to be made making rugby games then EA would be making them already. The fact they haven't for over a decade speaks volumes (and even then they were making them well beyond their internal profitability requirements were supposed to allow). They will never make another rugby game.

If you want better rugby games, support the developers and publishers actually putting their businesses on the line to bring you rugby games. Support them with your dollars and with constructive criticism. Hoping for publishers who abandoned the sport years ago to come back into the fray, and to somehow magically invest budget well beyond what the market would support at that, is a pipe dream.
 

TRF_heineken

RIP #J9
TRF Legend
TRF Supporter
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
11,375
Reaction score
1,240
Country Flag

South Africa

Club or Nation

South Africa

The reason is the market for rugby games is actually nowhere near as big as you think.
Really?? Social Media is a real cheap and easy form of marketing, yet, there is nothing popping up. Getting the fans to share something is the fastest way to get more people interested in a product.


You praise EA for an iterative approach while admonishing rugby game developers for doing the same.

In any case, if there was meaningful money to be made making rugby games then EA would be making them already. The fact they haven't for over a decade speaks volumes (and even then they were making them well beyond their internal profitability requirements were supposed to allow). They will never make another rugby game.

If you want better rugby games, support the developers and publishers actually putting their businesses on the line to bring you rugby games. Support them with your dollars and with constructive criticism. Hoping for publishers who abandoned the sport years ago to come back into the fray, and to somehow magically invest budget well beyond what the market would support at that, is a pipe dream.
I was praising EA for their work on other sports games, not rugby. And they deserve that praise as they have won me over on getting interested in other sports such as MMA and NBA. I know the ship has perhaps sailed to get EA involved again. Although they still have the model in place to work from even if the tech is 10 years old.

I will gladly praise developers and publishers if their products are not a disappointment. And you should take note that I was on of the contributors when Sidhe was making the original Rugby Challenge game and we had a whole subforum dedicated to the making and progress of the game. I even bought RC 1 and 2 on pre-order. And RC 3 was given to me as a birthday present.

But in all honesty, there doesn't appear to be much progress on the RC games, seems to me more like with every release of a product 2 or 3 years inbetween one another, is more like a DLC update of the previous version.

There's no major changes, at least none that keeps the fans happy and interested. So what's happening, guys are still playing Rugby 08 on the PS2 with their mates. It's just the truth.
 

TheOvalBall

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Oct 4, 2015
Messages
1,998
Reaction score
246
Country Flag

South Africa

Club or Nation

France

I tried programming before. I was hopeless at it.
 

Woldog

First XV
TRF Legend
Joined
Sep 23, 2008
Messages
1,696
Reaction score
252
Country Flag

Australia

Club or Nation

Reds

Really?? Social Media is a real cheap and easy form of marketing, yet, there is nothing popping up. Getting the fans to share something is the fastest way to get more people interested in a product.




I was praising EA for their work on other sports games, not rugby. And they deserve that praise as they have won me over on getting interested in other sports such as MMA and NBA. I know the ship has perhaps sailed to get EA involved again. Although they still have the model in place to work from even if the tech is 10 years old.

I will gladly praise developers and publishers if their products are not a disappointment. And you should take note that I was on of the contributors when Sidhe was making the original Rugby Challenge game and we had a whole subforum dedicated to the making and progress of the game. I even bought RC 1 and 2 on pre-order. And RC 3 was given to me as a birthday present.

But in all honesty, there doesn't appear to be much progress on the RC games, seems to me more like with every release of a product 2 or 3 years inbetween one another, is more like a DLC update of the previous version.

There's no major changes, at least none that keeps the fans happy and interested. So what's happening, guys are still playing Rugby 08 on the PS2 with their mates. It's just the truth.
There are a lot of improvements in RC4 but people don't realise them because they're too busy focusing on the things that didn't change.
WW did a lot of work on AFL Evolution 2 after release patching it and improving it greatly. They will do the same with RC4. The only reason it came out in Early Access was to give the fans something. I'm not saying it's perfect by any means. But I'll continue to support them by purchasing and helping them with them again in the future if they ask for it. I've already bought it on Xbox and Switch and I'll buy it again on PC.

@Mario and Sidhe did the groundwork 9 years ago and put their passion into it, the reception was great and I'm glad they decided to sell it on (if that's what happened) rather than just let the franchise die out after 2 games. Small companies can't do everything they want, but at least they're trying.
 
Top