Would the Super Rugbys best beat the NH best?

[Kiwi_]

In all honesty I know very little about the quality of NH teams. I just know they buy a lot of our All Blacks, especially French teams.
Occasionally I might catch the winner of the Heineken Cup, but honestly, I couldn't tell you who the current Champions are and who the best teams are. I know Leinster won it for a bit with BOD. But it gets zero coverage out here and I mean zero.

Question is for the guys who know both SR and NH.

Would the Hurricanes/Highlanders/Warratahs/Crusaders beat the best clubs from the NH?

 

[nickdnz]

Well, based off recent NH vs SH matches in clubs - the SH teams have tended to win, Sharks beat Toulon (the champions) recently (although neither have really played with their best teams).

I personally believe SR is the best competition in the world, but comparison are tough because, taking the Top 14 as an example, they play almost twice as many games, so attrition is very different.

Really, the French generally believe they have the best comp, SH believe they have the best comp, England believe their comp is as good as the French comp, Japan is average but steadily improving, and the Pro 12 is just happy to be part of the conversation..

 

[Kiwi_]

I'm moving to Nice in September, so I should probably do some research. Looks like Toulon will be the local team. Looks like they won it, so it's a good start. Looking forward to watching the WC in French pubs with an AB jersey and Highlanders snap back.

 

[Tony Manx]

Well, based off recent NH vs SH matches in clubs - the SH teams have tended to win, Sharks beat Toulon (the champions) recently (although neither have really played with their best teams).

I personally believe SR is the best competition in the world, but comparison are tough because, taking the Top 14 as an example, they play almost twice as many games, so attrition is very different.

Really, the French generally believe they have the best comp, SH believe they have the best comp, England believe their comp is as good as the French comp, Japan is average but steadily improving, and the Pro D2 is just happy to be part of the conversation..

Good to see you rate the French 2nd Division ahead of the the Pro 12 which you do not even mention!!!

I'm moving to Nice in September, so I should probably do some research. Looks like Toulon will be the local team. Looks like they won it, so it's a good start. Looking forward to watching the WC in French pubs with an AB jersey and Highlanders snap back.

Try the Club Nicois too.....it would be your local team and been around since 1912!!

http://www.stadenicois.fr

 

[ZeroTwo]

Saracens are playing Crusaders in America. Although will be second string teams.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...Superdome-match-against-English-club-Saracens

Saracens recently won the Premiership, but finished fourth in the regular season and is significantly behind the top French clubs. Saracens also beat the Sharks last year at home (as well as beating South Africa a few years ago!).

http://www.saracens.com/saracens-edge-sharks-at-allianz-park/

Hard to say though. In one offs, I tend to believe SH teams would do the business. Over a season, a lot of NH clubs are used to the grind (that old relegation vs secured safety argument) so may perform better.

 

[FrenchFan]

Hard to say. I wouldn't say we have the best league. It's far from perfect but I enjoy it for what it is. It's a lot better than what it used to be 20 yrs ago.
My experience of watching S15 I find the pace faster than in T14. It's high tempo rugby which is sustainable over a shorter season. The T14 is nearly 10 mths - teams like Bordeaux can play that fast tempo but they tend to fizzle out in the 2nd half of the season (also due to lack of bench depth injuries etc). I can't imagine the S15 would last that pace over a longer season. Also I'd like to see them on a cold muddy pitch with a greasy ball as the weather conditions i've seen most S15 games seem always ideal. We get a full NH winter here and the game slows down as result and becomes more attritional.

The NZ franchises I've watched like Hurricanes and Chiefs have better back play. Better passing and handling skills. For set pieces the T14 might have the edge as there is more emphasis on set pieces in our league. But it would be close probably not that decisive. I don't think it would come down to just those 2 differences.

I would love a competition involving the best S15 franchises v our top 5 teams.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Saracens are playing Crusaders in America. Although will be second string teams.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...Superdome-match-against-English-club-Saracens

Saracens recently won the Premiership, but finished fourth in the regular season and is significantly behind the top French clubs. Saracens also beat the Sharks last year at home (as well as beating South Africa a few years ago!).

http://www.saracens.com/saracens-edge-sharks-at-allianz-park/

Hard to say though. In one offs, I tend to believe SH teams would do the business. Over a season, a lot of NH clubs are used to the grind (that old relegation vs secured safety argument) so may perform better.

Conveniently leaving out that the Stormers (2013?) and Bulls (2015) beat the Saracens though..

 

[ZeroTwo]

Conveniently leaving out that the Stormers (2013?) and Bulls (2015) beat the Saracens though..

Oh did they?! Must have missed them.....

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Oh did they?! Must have missed them.....

TBF the game against the Stormers was a close one (high scoring though- exhibition type match) and in Cape Town and the match against the Bulls was very much 2nd stringers for a large part but in London though.

 

[chippieolamus]

I would love it if there was a play off at the end of the S15 season/start of NH pre-season between the European Cup winners and the S15 champs. That way you could have the 'club world champions'

 

[ianw16]

It's very difficult to get the two teams at their best. One is inevitably match hardened, but at the end of their season, the other is fresh, but only just about to start their season. One occasion when both teams were more or less at full strength was back in 1997. Brive (EC champs) v Auckland Blues (Super12 champs). Auckland slaughtered them 47-11; http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby-union-roundup-brive-out-with-the-washing-1280240.html. They then went on to SA and drew their opening Super 12 fixture 40-40 against the Bulls.
Having lived in this part of the world for a while, I believe the better SH teams would generally beat the better NH teams most of the time. Particularly NZ teams, who don't suffer quite as much from player drain as SA in particular do. The French game is probably stronger now than then, but only due to the recruitment of overseas players. The games I see in Top 14 and English club rugby are pretty pedestrian compared to watching Super XV. Given a dry track, I think the SH would be too good. Note that the narrow victory the Blues had over Harlequins in '97 was in an absolute mud bath in London. If it came down to a forward dominated slog in the mud and rain, the NH would have more of a chance.

 

[chippieolamus]

It's very difficult to get the two teams at their best. One is inevitably match hardened, but at the end of their season, the other is fresh, but only just about to start their season. One occasion when both teams were more or less at full strength was back in 1997. Brive (EC champs) v Auckland Blues (Super12 champs). Auckland slaughtered them 47-11; http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby-union-roundup-brive-out-with-the-washing-1280240.html. They then went on to SA and drew their opening Super 12 fixture 40-40 against the Bulls.
Having lived in this part of the world for a while, I believe the better SH teams would generally beat the better NH teams most of the time. Particularly NZ teams, who don't suffer quite as much from player drain as SA in particular do. The French game is probably stronger now than then, but only due to the recruitment of overseas players. The games I see in Top 14 and English club rugby are pretty pedestrian compared to watching Super XV. Given a dry track, I think the SH would be too good. Note that the narrow victory the Blues had over Harlequins in '97 was in an absolute mud bath in London. If it came down to a forward dominated slog in the mud and rain, the NH would have more of a chance.

To be fair, the lower paced game is due to a few factors. Firstly because of the worse conditions, but also because the seasons are longer and more gruelling, which makes it difficult to sustain attacking rugby across a much longer season (plus 2 to 3 play off games and European cup games). In S15 teams have max 19 games, whereas a French league team could play as many as 38 games (26 regular season, up to 3 play offs, 6 EC pool games, 3 EC knockouts).

That's not to say that NH club rugby is particularly boring. Just doing a quick calculation to find the average points scored per team per game in S15 and AP, I got this: (haven't double checked figures)
S15: 22.66
AP: 23.98
These are probably skewed by London Welsh (if you're not aware they lost every game by 30-40 odd points, some by 50+), but still show that NH rugby isn't a huge amount slower.

 

[smartcooky]

IMO, this would very much depend where and when the game was played.

SANZAR XV v ECC XV played on a dry, fast Eden Park in February would be a very different prospect from the same match played at Twickenham on a cold, rainy afternoon in November.

Also, I read somewhere that you could pick a very competitive All Black, Wallaby or Springbok team from eligible players playing in Europe. These NH clubs seem to buy a lot of SH talent, much of it in lieu of developing their own, so if you were going to pick a "best players in the ECC" team, how many of them would be Kiwis, Aussies, Argies or Saffas anyway. How many actual born, bred and developed NH players would make this team?

 

[goodNumber10]

Conveniently leaving out that the Stormers (2013?) and Bulls (2015) beat the Saracens though..

what this game, or do you mean the game back in 2009?

<iframe width="853" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/KZP38gjEViQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[smartcooky]

what this game, or do you mean the game back in 2009?

<iframe src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/KZP38gjEViQ" allowfullscreen="" width="853" frameborder="0" height="480"></iframe>

Western Province is a Currie Cup team. It isn't the Stormers.

Its like saying Otago and the Highlanders are the same team, or Waikato and the Chiefs are the same team. They aren't.

 

[goodNumber10]

Western Province is a Currie Cup team. It isn't the Stormers.

Its like saying Otago and the Highlanders are the same team, or Waikato and the Chiefs are the same team. They aren't.

yes, i know the difference thanks, I flagged it up because he says 2013, but they played the stormers in 2009 and WP in 2014, so i was clarifying if he had the games mixed up.

 

[smartcooky]

yes, i know the difference thanks, I flagged it up because he says 2013, but they played the stormers in 2009 and WP in 2014, so i was clarifying if he had the games mixed up.

OK gotcha.

Probably why he said "2013?"

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Is there a list of club(/franchise/province/whatever) vs International side games?
I know there's usually one (or more?) a year, but I can never remember what they are.
I know England XV beat Crusaders, Leicester Tigers beat South Africa XV and Saracens beat South Africa XV, but can't remember any others (there's probably a reason I remember those ones )

 

[smartcooky]

Is there a list of club(/franchise/province/whatever) vs International side games?
I know there's usually one (or more?) a year, but I can never remember what they are.
I know England XV beat Crusaders, Leicester Tigers beat South Africa XV and Saracens beat South Africa XV, but can't remember any others (there's probably a reason I remember those ones )

Of course the Lions always play provincial sides.

France played the Blues last time they were here

 

[Jaguares]

Off course!!! Super Rugby rules!