South Africa vs British and Irish Lions - Test 2

[TRF_stormer2010]

It will be interesting to see what the backlash might be from the powers that be. If any?

Certainly will put pressure on the referees but he might have gone that bit too far I don't know. Doubt Gatland will outdo Rassie in the media show this time round LOL. Hopefully it pays off and we get the rub of it this week. It certainly does add some spice.

 

[Deleted member 53362]

Wow it's all kicking off in here.

you want to look at some of the comments on Youtube..

 

[Deleted member 53362]

It will be interesting to see what the backlash might be from the powers that be. If any?

Certainly will put pressure on the referees but he might have gone that bit too far I don't know. Doubt Gatland will outdo Rassie in the media show this time round LOL. Hopefully it pays off and we get the rub of it this week. It certainly does add some spice.

if the Boks lose he will just look like a broken man clinging on. Sad really.

 

[Wasps92]

Erasmus is mildly annoying isn’t he? I wish he’d shut his pie hole. Would be funny seeing his head explode if the Lions went 2-0 up on Saturday.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It will be interesting to see what the backlash might be from the powers that be. If any?

There won't be any

 

[HenryChinaski]

Agree on the points around precedent setting from Brian Moore - it's why I think it's important to have certain boundaries on what's acceptable and isn't from coaches.

 

[Jer1cho]

Erasmus is mildly annoying isn’t he? I wish he’d shut his pie hole. Would be funny seeing his head explode if the Lions went 2-0 up on Saturday.

Gatland is and always has been far more than mildly annoying.

 

[ncurd]

There won't be any

Yeah there won't be any for this incident fairly certain clear guidelines may come in after it though. Finding the right line will be hard this goes beyond what should be allowed, Gats being miffed about a same nationality appointment or Rassie miffed about the Watson call are probably fine. Where you get to in between is complicated.

 

[ChicagoKid]

I suppose I view everything from an American lens, so I see Gatland's comments about the TMO and see a $100k fine from an organization like the NFL. Questioning the integrity and professionalism of a ref is a big no-no here. Then Rassie followed up with a more direct hit on a ref - that would likely be a $250k fine.

Overall, Gatland and Rassie would be punished in the USA and it appears that Rassie is doubling down on his instincts.

 

[General Melchett]

What I find interesting is that Gatland found out that Jonker would be TMO on the Wednesday but chose to wait until Friday before he vented his anger to the press - that was pure gamesmanship and an attempt to influence Jonker immediately before the game. Rassie's rant about the tip tackle was after the match and more valid.

Rassie slamming Nic Berry in the video is his way of telling Ben O'Keefe to start listening to Kolisi more and that we're due a few more 50/50 calls or I'll be calling you out in next week's video. As entertaining as it is there does seem to be a bit of a shift towards how Premier league football managers behave. Given the online abuse officials could receive the coaches should probably be banned from talking about officials both before and after the games.

 

[ncurd]

I suppose I view everything from an American lens, so I see Gatland's comments about the TMO and see a $100k fine from an organization like the NFL. Questioning the integrity and professionalism of a ref is a big no-no here. Then Rassie followed up with a more direct hit on a ref - that would likely be a $250k fine.

Overall, Gatland and Rassie would be punished in the USA and it appears that Rassie is doubling down on his instincts.

Gats' comments are a tad more complex we have neutral referees in international sports for very good reasons he was questioning the reasoning behind and governing body for not having a non-neutral ref. He wasn't really calling into question his integrity or professionalism if he was you have to agree there is no point to neutral refs being the norm and thats an entirely different can of worms.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

if the Boks lose he will just look like a broken man clinging on. Sad really.

If the Bokke win would this look any better though? From where I sit if the Bokke won and there were clear mistakes favoring us Rassie would look just as bad if not worse off. Even if it were a perfectly reffed game there would and probably should be an air of did Erasmus pressure the ref? It would look as if his little gambit payed dividends. If we lose, why would he "look like a broken man man clinging on"?

Agree on the points around precedent setting from Brian Moore - it's why I think it's important to have certain boundaries on what's acceptable and isn't from coaches.

Sure but where are the lines and where were these comments from @BrianMoore666 last week? It should either be all or nothing that is allowed. There is too much room for interpretation otherwise.

Gatland is and always has been far more than mildly annoying.

Don't forget Eddie Jones. They're all guilty of throwing mud in the media.

 

[ncurd]

Sure but where are the lines and where were these comments from @BrianMoore666 last week? It should either be all or nothing that is allowed. There is too much room for interpretation otherwise.

Gats questioned the appointment a non-neutral referee there's a huge gap between that and what Erasmus has just done.

 

[ChicagoKid]

Gats' comments are a tad more complex we have neutral referees in international sports for very good reasons he was questioning the reasoning behind and governing body for not having a non-neutral ref. He wasn't really calling into question his integrity or professionalism if he was you have to agree there is no point to neutral refs being the norm and thats an entirely different can of worms.

What he was alluding to was that because the TMO was South African, he couldn't be trusted to be impartial.

 

[ncurd]

What he was alluding to was that because the TMO was South African, he couldn't be trusted to be impartial.

Yes he was, which is why neutral referee's are appointed to all international matches. You think they do that because referees are trusted to be neutral or impartial?

 

[Quel Carreleur]

Let's just say, if any club coach had released a video like that - they'd have already received their (lengthy) touchline ban, and probably required to do some form of community service (probably a ref's course and reffing a few amateur matches)

 

[ChicagoKid]

Yes he was, which is why neutral referee's are appointed to all international matches. You think they do that because referees are trusted to be neutral or impartial?

I guess it's a bizarre mindset from my perspective. In the NFL/NBA/MLB/NHL refs come from all over the USA and they ref teams in their hometown or home state or home region. And no one really bats an eye.

Also, the major American sports leagues moved to centralized review locations. Why does the TMO even need to be in Cape Town? Build a centralized review area in some location, hire a global reffing Czar, and let him & his team make the TMO decisions.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Gats questioned the appointment a non-neutral referee there's a huge gap between that and what Erasmus has just done.

Yes I wouldn't argue that the one is a cheeky stab and the other a bloody massacre but it could also be said that Gats' had a clear effect and Rassie is so hard to the point it might actually end up backfiring. What I am getting at is if the ref staff are to be protected from outside influence then they need to be protected from outside influence.

 

[ChicagoKid]

Yes I wouldn't argue that the one is a cheeky stab and the other a bloody massacre but it could also be said that Gats' had a clear effect and Rassie is so hard to the point it might actually end up backfiring. What I am getting at is if the ref staff are to be protected from outside influence then they need to be protected from outside influence.

If Rassie is to be trusted, it appears that the appeal process in World Rugby is pretty broken. Multi-week reviews for on-field decisions is a farce. They should have full reports within 48-72 hours.

 

[ncurd]

I guess it's a bizarre mindset from my perspective. In the NFL/NBA/MLB/NHL refs come from all over the USA and they ref teams in their hometown or home state or home region. And no one really bats an eye.

Also, the major American sports leagues moved to centralized review locations. Why does the TMO even need to be in Cape Town? Build a centralized review area in some location, hire a global reffing Czar, and let him & his team make the TMO decisions.

We don't really question it on a domestic level although I would suggest Cricket is probably the one with most recent history to why neutral officials are appointed to look up on it. Even as recent as the 90's they didn't appoint neutral umpires. This led to many many dubious calls that you can watch video evidence of, of course the advent of technology and referrals has mitigated that a lot.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Agree on the points around precedent setting from Brian Moore - it's why I think it's important to have certain boundaries on what's acceptable and isn't from coaches.

You’d like to think common sense might do the job, especially away from the heat of battle…….but no, some idiot comes along and spoils it for everyone else leading to more bureaucracy. Fair play to Rassie though, my money would have been on Jones

I assume that World Rugby could sanction under some sort of disrepute clause or just issue a general ‘against the spirit of the game’ rebuke. But you could see Rassie going up in conspiracy theory flames on that given the Chairman is a former Lions captain in SA…..

 

[ncurd]

If Rassie is to be trusted, it appears that the appeal process in World Rugby is pretty broken. Multi-week reviews for on-field decisions is a farce. They should have full reports within 48-72 hours.

Citing happens within 48 hours (I think might be slightly less or more) which is is the only thing that happens that could effect a further match as 99% of the time and entirely different officiating staff will take control of the next game. Which is why length of reviews make sense a ref isn't being asked to fix their mistakes within a week so they are far to cold hard analyse it than not withing the moment.

 

[ChicagoKid]

One thing this brouhaha has revealed is how bad Rugby journalism is. Don't get me wrong, our media isn't great, but our sports media has a lot of top-notch talent.

Who should I be following for good rugby journalism because what I see on my feed is horse manure.

 

[ChicagoKid]

Citing happens within 48 hours (I think might be slightly less or more) which is is the only thing that happens that could effect a further match as 99% of the time and entirely different officiating staff will take control of the next game. Which is why length of reviews make sense a ref isn't being asked to fix their mistakes within a week so they are far to cold hard analyse it than not withing the moment.

But in this instance they are. It's the same 3 refs for the entire test series. So shouldn't feedback be given within 24-48 hours?

 

[Deleted member 53362]

I guess it's a bizarre mindset from my perspective. In the NFL/NBA/MLB/NHL refs come from all over the USA and they ref teams in their hometown or home state or home region. And no one really bats an eye.

Also, the major American sports leagues moved to centralized review locations. Why does the TMO even need to be in Cape Town? Build a centralized review area in some location, hire a global reffing Czar, and let him & his team make the TMO decisions.

You are talking about national sporting events not International

 

[ChicagoKid]

You are talking about national sporting events not International

Mate, all four of those Leagues play in Canada. They are all international leagues.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

 

[Deleted member 53362]

Mate, all four of those Leagues play in Canada. They are all international leagues.

Yeah like the pro 14 and super rugby are international Leagues. We are talking about international test matches played by nations. If Canada and the USA were playing for a WC qualifier would you be happy with the officials being Canadian?

 

[ncurd]

But in this instance they are. It's the same 3 refs for the entire test series. So shouldn't feedback be given within 24-48 hours?

Well a different person is the overall ref and taking charge touch judges have far less influence than the main ref. O'Keefe will almost certainly look at that Watson tackle as the main ref and probably want a further look at it. As touch judge he probably stood there slightly bemused same with Raynal. Berry is only a touch judge now so he's looking at everything with a slightly different perspective.

It would be useful yes but its not in the Earth shattering consequences and certainly considering there are top 'refs' in the world.

Mate, all four of those Leagues play in Canada. They are all international leagues.

Yes but the teams are made of players from a mixture of nationalities. Its no more an international league than say Super Rugby infact less so as the players are so mixed up due to the draft system.

 

[ChicagoKid]

Yeah like the pro 14 and super rugby are international Leagues. We are talking about international test matches played by nations. If Canada and the USA were playing for a WC qualifier would you be happy with the officials being Canadian?

Well a different person is the overall ref and taking charge touch judges have far less influence than the main ref. O'Keefe will almost certainly look at that Watson tackle as the main ref and probably want a further look at it. As touch judge he probably stood there slightly bemused same with Raynal. Berry is only a touch judge now so he's looking at everything with a slightly different perspective.

It would be useful yes but its not in the Earth shattering consequences and certainly considering there are top 'refs' in the world.

Yes but the teams are made of players from a mixture of nationalities. Its no more an international league than say Super Rugby infact less so as the players are so mixed up due to the draft system.

@Tallshort - If the guy is a professional ref, no I would not care.

@ncurd The touch judges have some power to flag incidents though. Overall, to me, I like how O'Keefe refs and speaks to players so I expect this will be a non-issue by Saturday evening.