England 24/25 Depth Chart

[BPM]

Posted this on another forum and thought I'd share here.

The upcoming tour and being shorn of Lions absentees has got me thinking about a realistic depth chart.

Here's my take (in order of SB's assumed preference).

I've been strict on only including players who he has used or have selected been in recent A squads (so presumably on the radar). Uncapped players are in italics.

1. E. Genge / F. Baxter / B. Rodd / B. Obano / E. Iyogun / T. Haffar / P. Brantingham
2. L. Cowan-Dickie / J. George / T. Dan / C. Langdon / G. Oghre / N. Jibulu / J. Blamire
3. W. Stuart / J. Heyes / A. Opoku-Fordjour / A. Fasogbon / T. Davison / L. Green / G. Kloska / V. Sela / J. Iosefa-Scott
4. M. Itoje / A. Coles / N. Isiekwe / J. Batley / T. Lockett / R. Capstick
5. O. Chessum / G. Martin / A. Clark / C.Ewels / H. Tizard / R. Tuima / B. Bamber
6. T. Curry / C. Cunningham-South / T. Hill / E. Roots / J. Kenningham
7. B. Earl / B. Curry / S. Underhill / H. Pollock / G. Pepper / T. Pearson
8. T. Willis / A. Dombrandt / A. Barbeary / G. Fisilau
9. A. Mitchell / J. van Poortvliet / H. Randall / B. Spencer / R. Quirke / W. Porter / A. McParland / C. Englefield / C. Bracken
10. F. Smith / M. Smith / G. Ford / C. Atkinson / O. Bailey
11. T. Freeman / O. Sleightholme / O. Hassell-Collins / W. Muir / G. Ibitoye
12. F. Dingwall / H. Slade / M. Ojomoh / A. Lozowski / S. Atkinson / R. Ma’asi-White / J. Woodward / W. Butt / O. Hartley
13. O. Lawrence / O. Beard / L. Northmore
14. I. Feyi-Waboso / T. Roebuck / C. Murley / A. Radwan
15. G. Furbank / F. Steward / J. Carpenter / G. Hendy / M. Malins / H. Arundell / J. Hodge

The other uncapped players on the radar but yet to feature are:

1. ?
2. K. Tuipolotu / S. Blake
3. ?
4. ?
5. ?
6. J. Clement / F. Carnduff
7. E. Ilione
8. F. Harding
9. ?
10. J. Benson / C. Donoghue
11. C. Cleaves / B. Stevenson
12. B. Waghorn
13. W. Joseph**
14. P. Brown-Bampoe / B. Loader
15. T. de Glanville / B. Redshaw

*has played 12 and 13
**capped but hasn’t featured in any squads under Borthwick

Unavailable:

O. Farrell, J. Marchant, K. Sinckler, D. Ribbans, L. Ludlam, S. Simmonds, J. Simmonds, J. Hill, Kpoku (I think the Vunipolas retired from international rugby?)

There may be a few I've missed, but I've tried to capture anyone that's had a serious mention (either from England or from us).

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Think Bamber, RMW and Hodge have played for the A side haven't they? Or are you just counting the most recent game?

Bamber has really impressed me recently - he fell down the pecking order at Sale a bit this season but since coming back into the 23 he's been absolutely on fire
If we miss out on the playoffs I'd like to see him and Lockett in the row for the "XV" game

 

[Flankers' paradise]

apparently Ben Stevenson and Jack Clement in consideration for the xv game

 

[BPM]

Think Bamber, RMW and Hodge have played for the A side haven't they? Or are you just counting the most recent game?

Bamber has really impressed me recently - he fell down the pecking order at Sale a bit this season but since coming back into the 23 he's been absolutely on fire
If we miss out on the playoffs I'd like to see him and Lockett in the row for the "XV" game

No. The main piece is all of the players Borthwick has capped or called-up + all of the A squad players.

As far as I'm aware, none of the ones in the second list have been called-up by Borthwick or selected for an A squad as yet.

apparently Ben Stevenson and Jack Clement in consideration for the xv game

I've added them. Clement has had a good season and as a 6/8, he's probably an A squad/'England XV' squad contender.

Stevenson feels like a stretch, but then without the wingers from the current top 4, it's probably from Murley, Elliott, Brown-Bampoe and maybe Ramm, Hodge or Nick David (that's also my order of preference). If Bristol drop out of the top 4, there's Ibitoye as well.

Not sure some of those would ever be considered in normal circumstances though.

There’s also IFW, but I kind of hope we leave him at home to heal up.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

No. The main piece is all of the players Borthwick has capped or called-up + all of the A squad players.

As far as I'm aware, none of the ones in the second list have been called-up by Borthwick or selected for an A squad as yet.

Bamber and Hodge played against Portugal - I thought RMW had but think he just trained with the squad
Hartley played in it too

There were a few others in that game missing but who I wouldn't really put on the depth chart though - Iosefa-Scott and Englefield

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Looking at that chart it feels like 13 lacks the same depth as other positions but I guess Slade has also covered there.

 

[BPM]

Bamber and Hodge played against Portugal - I thought RMW had but think he just trained with the squad
Hartley played in it too

There were a few others in that game missing but who I wouldn't really put on the depth chart though - Iosefa-Scott and Englefield

Ah yes, I’d clean forgotten about that game and only looked at the squads for Australia and Ireland A.

I just have had some kind of unconscious bias against Exeter as I also missed Tuima and Capstick. Updated the chart.

 

[BPM]

Looking at that chart it feels like 13 lacks the same depth as other positions but I guess Slade has also covered there.

Yeah. I put Dingwall (as the man in possession of the shirt) at 12 along with Ojomoh and Lozowski but all three arguably play at 13 on a more regular basis.

 

[Geordie]

apparently Ben Stevenson and Jack Clement in consideration for the xv game

Ben Stevenson is a quality winger. But as i said on the falcons forum, theres probably younger with a higher ceiling to bring through now.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Looking at the depth chart Earl or CCS or both need to drop down to number 8

Honestly England back row is blessed with sooo many 7's but in terms of traditional 8 and 6 we are really not that strong a position

 

[Reiser99]

Honestly, I know he got picked for the A squad I believe, but still...who the **** is Englefield?

 

[Geordie]

Looking at the depth chart Earl or CCS or both need to drop down to number 8

Honestly England back row is blessed with sooo many 7's but in terms of traditional 8 and 6 we are really not that strong a position

We have young Freddie Lockwood coming through well...hes a powerful 6, but in all honesty im not sure if he will push for international honours. Theres just too many quality options at the moment if SB sticks with the dual 7 mode thats he been forced in to at the moment.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I think Ilione would be a class 6, but with Carnduff coming up I don't see him really playing 6 long term at Tigers

 

[Geordie]

I think Ilione would be a class 6, but with Carnduff coming up I don't see him really playing 6 long term at Tigers

Ive seen a bit of Ilione this season and he does look like hes starting to deliver the potential that was hoped of him. He looks a strong guy and has crazy long arms.

Is Carnduff getting much gametime?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Ive seen a bit of Ilione this season and he does look like hes starting to deliver the potential that was hoped of him. He looks a strong guy and has crazy long arms.

Is Carnduff getting much gametime?

Carnduff just came back from his surgery and started for Nottingham last two weeks. (Started 6 and then lock this weekend)
Suspect we won't rush him back to the league till next season now

 

[BPM]

I’m looking to see what Parling can do with Carnduff and even more Lewis Chessum.

Hopefully the time in Japan has helped him to get back on track. He’s still only 22 and has so much potential.

Right now we have a reasonable amount of depth at lock, but not necessarily ‘strength in depth’. That could change pretty quickly though if Bamber, Chessum, Kpoku, Burrow, Sodeke etc. start making a proper mark at senior level. Bamber and Kpoku are getting the most game time at the moment but I expect those I’ve mentioned to be getting their breakthroughs next season.

 

[Geordie]

I'm looking to see what Parling can do with Carnduff and even more Lewis Chessum.

Hopefully the time in Japan has helped him to get back on track. He's still only 22 and has so much potential.

Right now we have a reasonable amount of depth at lock, but not necessarily 'strength in depth'. That could change pretty quickly though if Bamber, Chessum, Kpoku, Burrow, Sodeke etc. start making a proper mark at senior level. Bamber and Kpoku are getting the most game time at the moment but I expect those I've mentioned to be getting their breakthroughs next season.

The locks at U20 really infuriate me. Every year someone stands out yet seemingly never make the jump up for a variety of reasons. Aflie Bell a few years back, Lewis Chessum etc etc. Once again Burrows and Sodeke (ignoring the better known Kopoku Jr) impressed me...but it remains to be seen if they step up. They're both at really good clubs though so we can only hope.

Bamber is just quietly getting his games for Sale...so i hope they have another look at him.

For the Argentina tour...it'll definately be Coles in one of the spots...who partners him...Arthur was the one being looked at but who knows. A good performance in the A / XV games might change it.

 

[BPM]

Personally, I'm not too worried about the pace of development in tight five forwards as they always tend to get better and reach a physical peak later.

Arthur Clark will likely be involved given he was already called-up to the 6N squad and is back to fitness.

Depending on the size of the touring party, I would imagine we'll see Coles, Isiekwe and Clark as the specialist locks with CCS and Ted Hill providing cover.

Bamber is giving himself a decent shout though.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I think it's slightly unfair, Bell is only 22 so is Lhessum.

Locks especially tall ones tend to need a couple years to fill out

 

[Geordie]

I think it's slightly unfair, Bell is only 22 so is Lhessum.

Locks especially tall ones tend to need a couple years to fill out

Maybe a little unfair yes, and i appreciate that young lads develop at different speeds. But at 22 i would have hoped to see players getting a certain amount of gametime (managed properly) even just a few minutes here and there off the bench. I may be wrong but has Bell had any recently, even this season with Exeter?

Maybe your right that the taller lads need a bit more time to really develope physically.

 

[BPM]

IIRC Lewis Chessum got injured and then took the opportunity to go to Japan for regular game time to make up for the development he’d lost out on.

I can see him developing well under Parling.

Not sure what the story is with Bell. Not a great look when a flanker is being picked out of position ahead of you (Capstick). He didn’t really seem to be in the mix when Jenkins was injured either.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

With all of Jenkins, Molina, Zambonin, Tshiunza, Tuima, Capstick and Pearson at Chiefs next season I'd honestly be surprised to see Bell pick up any game time outside of Prem Cup bench appearances (and even that could be pushing it). Even out of the academy boys he seems to be behind Joe Bailey.

 

[Geordie]

IIRC Lewis Chessum got injured and then took the opportunity to go to Japan for regular game time to make up for the development he'd lost out on.

I can see him developing well under Parling.

Not sure what the story is with Bell. Not a great look when a flanker is being picked out of position ahead of you (Capstick). He didn't really seem to be in the mix when Jenkins was injured either.

I hope Lewis does come back and really start pushing on.

My point does stand with Bell though. Now I fully understand few actually make it from the England U20 squad to the seniors in alot of the positions...but I'd love to know how many locks who represented the U20s actually went on to represent the Seniors and more so become a fixture in the side. I bet it's not many...

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Lock is one of those positions like prop where I'd rather take a 25 year old late bloomer than a young pup. Let the youth bulk out and get street wise and let's look at Clarke, Coles, Batley and anyone else I've missed.

 

[BPM]

I hope Lewis does come back and really start pushing on.

My point does stand with Bell though. Now I fully understand few actually make it from the England U20 squad to the seniors in alot of the positions...but I'd love to know how many locks who represented the U20s actually went on to represent the Seniors and more so become a fixture in the side. I bet it's not many...

It does, but I’d question whether Bell was actually exciting or whether he was mostly on the radar because of his size.

There are some who look good at age grade and keep getting better, others who peak early and drop off and others who mature more slowly. Sometimes it’s coaching, sometimes it’s club environment and sometimes it’s just human factors i.e. some players have the physical qualities but are slower to develop the tactical awareness/game sense that you need to get to the top.

We’ve had plenty who have progressed through the age grades, but it’s not the be all and end all. For example, I don’t think Ollie Chessum played for England at U18 or U20 but made a full debut at 21. In contrast, Martin is kind of a classic ‘graduate’ profile.

There’s a bit of a hole in the 24-28 age group that has a lot to do with Dean Ryan laying waste to a lot of the age grade set up, plus disruption caused by COVID.

It’s also worth mentioning that for a long time we had a very well established crop of top class senior locks which made it one of the hardest positions for anyone to break into. Itoje was really the exception.

 

[Geordie]

It does, but I'd question whether Bell was actually exciting or whether he was mostly on the radar because of his size.

There are some who look good at age grade and keep getting better, others who peak early and drop off and others who mature more slowly. Sometimes it's coaching, sometimes it's club environment and sometimes it's just human factors i.e. some players have the physical qualities but are slower to develop the tactical awareness/game sense that you need to get to the top.

We've had plenty who have progressed through the age grades, but it's not the be all and end all. For example, I don't think Ollie Chessum played for England at U18 or U20 but made a full debut at 21. In contrast, Martin is kind of a classic 'graduate' profile.

There's a bit of a hole in the 24-28 age group that has a lot to do with Dean Ryan laying waste to a lot of the age grade set up, plus disruption caused by COVID.

It's also worth mentioning that for a long time we had a very well established crop of top class senior locks which made it one of the hardest positions for anyone to break into. Itoje was really the exception.

I agree with everything you say..and far from putting Bell on a pedestal im purely using him as an example...

There are many routes (BUCS is now becoming a more recognised path now aswell) and i appreciate players develop at different ages and rates.

Id love to know the progression rate / numbers from England U20 representation to Premier league caps (in all positions). I imagine its not as high as it maybe should be

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Id love to know the progression rate / numbers from England U20 representation to Premier league caps (in all positions). I imagine its not as high as it maybe should be

I don't look at U20 as anything other than something mildly interesting in its own right. The Pollocks of this world may shine,
but no real barometer of potential professionals, let alone future internationals.

Just too many variables - rates of physical maturity and natural talent can still take you disproportionately far at that age. Then there's appetite - some people think there's more to life than rugby etc - the drop out rate for talented kids at this age is huge across all sports. And lastly the U20s regenerate every couple of years anyway so there are always a lot of U20 capped kids becoming available and a diminished league and clubs looking for ready made options doesn't help either.

Too early to say much on the 24 RWC winners but 3 or 4 are already making their presence felt at club level - Pollock, and couple of props particularly.

If we go back to the 2016 winning 23 I'd say that they all had pro contracts with prem clubs to one degree or another (which surprised me) at various times, but with massively varying degrees of success / duration which I'd guess is probably fairly typical - just 2 significant international careers in Stuart and Marchant, J Willis really should have been another. A few with a modest number of caps who never sealed a regular place e.g Malins and Randall. Some solid clubmen in the likes of Evans and Chick, some who made a bit of impact then vanished like Mallinder and Boyce and a few who never locked down a regular club place and have either dropped down leagues, given up or gone abroad - both locks look to be playing in the US.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I agree with everything you say..and far from putting Bell on a pedestal im purely using him as an example...

There are many routes (BUCS is now becoming a more recognised path now aswell) and i appreciate players develop at different ages and rates.

Id love to know the progression rate / numbers from England U20 representation to Premier league caps (in all positions). I imagine its not as high as it maybe should be

I did this for front rowers on this forum a while back. No idea how to find that though…..too many posts

 

[BPM]

I don't look at U20 as anything other than something mildly interesting in its own right. The Pollocks of this world may shine,
but no real barometer of potential professionals, let alone future internationals.

Just too many variables - rates of physical maturity and natural talent can still take you disproportionately far at that age. Then there's appetite - some people think there's more to life than rugby etc - the drop out rate for talented kids at this age is huge across all sports. And lastly the U20s regenerate every couple of years anyway so there are always a lot of U20 capped kids becoming available and a diminished league and clubs looking for ready made options doesn't help either.

Too early to say much on the 24 RWC winners but 3 or 4 are already making their presence felt at club level - Pollock, and couple of props particularly.

If we go back to the 2016 winning 23 I'd say that they all had pro contracts with prem clubs to one degree or another (which surprised me) at various times, but with massively varying degrees of success / duration which I'd guess is probably fairly typical - just 2 significant international careers in Stuart and Marchant, J Willis really should have been another. A few with a modest number of caps who never sealed a regular place e.g Malins and Randall. Some solid clubmen in the likes of Evans and Chick, some who made a bit of impact then vanished like Mallinder and Boyce and a few who never locked down a regular club place and have either dropped down leagues, given up or gone abroad - both locks look to be playing in the US.

I think Jack Walker was in that squad too.

‘Solid clubman’ is a harsh description of Evans IMO. He’s definitely good enough to be a test level player, he’s just extremely unfortunate to be in an era where the competition is insane.

I also think Marchant would have nailed down the starting 13 shirt if it hadn’t been for Eddie Jones.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I think Jack Walker was in that squad too.

'Solid clubman' is a harsh description of Evans IMO. He's definitely good enough to be a test level player, he's just extremely unfortunate to be in an era where the competition is insane.

I also think Marchant would have nailed down the starting 13 shirt if it hadn't been for Eddie Jones.

I may be wrong but I look at Evan’s and think, if he added 10kg he’d be a test player. Right now looks like an underpowered Burry.

That’s my view but I may be wrong.