England 24/25 Depth Chart

[BPM]

IIRC Lewis Chessum got injured and then took the opportunity to go to Japan for regular game time to make up for the development he’d lost out on.

I can see him developing well under Parling.

Not sure what the story is with Bell. Not a great look when a flanker is being picked out of position ahead of you (Capstick). He didn’t really seem to be in the mix when Jenkins was injured either.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

With all of Jenkins, Molina, Zambonin, Tshiunza, Tuima, Capstick and Pearson at Chiefs next season I'd honestly be surprised to see Bell pick up any game time outside of Prem Cup bench appearances (and even that could be pushing it). Even out of the academy boys he seems to be behind Joe Bailey.

 

[Geordie]

IIRC Lewis Chessum got injured and then took the opportunity to go to Japan for regular game time to make up for the development he'd lost out on.

I can see him developing well under Parling.

Not sure what the story is with Bell. Not a great look when a flanker is being picked out of position ahead of you (Capstick). He didn't really seem to be in the mix when Jenkins was injured either.

I hope Lewis does come back and really start pushing on.

My point does stand with Bell though. Now I fully understand few actually make it from the England U20 squad to the seniors in alot of the positions...but I'd love to know how many locks who represented the U20s actually went on to represent the Seniors and more so become a fixture in the side. I bet it's not many...

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Lock is one of those positions like prop where I'd rather take a 25 year old late bloomer than a young pup. Let the youth bulk out and get street wise and let's look at Clarke, Coles, Batley and anyone else I've missed.

 

[BPM]

I hope Lewis does come back and really start pushing on.

My point does stand with Bell though. Now I fully understand few actually make it from the England U20 squad to the seniors in alot of the positions...but I'd love to know how many locks who represented the U20s actually went on to represent the Seniors and more so become a fixture in the side. I bet it's not many...

It does, but I’d question whether Bell was actually exciting or whether he was mostly on the radar because of his size.

There are some who look good at age grade and keep getting better, others who peak early and drop off and others who mature more slowly. Sometimes it’s coaching, sometimes it’s club environment and sometimes it’s just human factors i.e. some players have the physical qualities but are slower to develop the tactical awareness/game sense that you need to get to the top.

We’ve had plenty who have progressed through the age grades, but it’s not the be all and end all. For example, I don’t think Ollie Chessum played for England at U18 or U20 but made a full debut at 21. In contrast, Martin is kind of a classic ‘graduate’ profile.

There’s a bit of a hole in the 24-28 age group that has a lot to do with Dean Ryan laying waste to a lot of the age grade set up, plus disruption caused by COVID.

It’s also worth mentioning that for a long time we had a very well established crop of top class senior locks which made it one of the hardest positions for anyone to break into. Itoje was really the exception.

 

[Geordie]

It does, but I'd question whether Bell was actually exciting or whether he was mostly on the radar because of his size.

There are some who look good at age grade and keep getting better, others who peak early and drop off and others who mature more slowly. Sometimes it's coaching, sometimes it's club environment and sometimes it's just human factors i.e. some players have the physical qualities but are slower to develop the tactical awareness/game sense that you need to get to the top.

We've had plenty who have progressed through the age grades, but it's not the be all and end all. For example, I don't think Ollie Chessum played for England at U18 or U20 but made a full debut at 21. In contrast, Martin is kind of a classic 'graduate' profile.

There's a bit of a hole in the 24-28 age group that has a lot to do with Dean Ryan laying waste to a lot of the age grade set up, plus disruption caused by COVID.

It's also worth mentioning that for a long time we had a very well established crop of top class senior locks which made it one of the hardest positions for anyone to break into. Itoje was really the exception.

I agree with everything you say..and far from putting Bell on a pedestal im purely using him as an example...

There are many routes (BUCS is now becoming a more recognised path now aswell) and i appreciate players develop at different ages and rates.

Id love to know the progression rate / numbers from England U20 representation to Premier league caps (in all positions). I imagine its not as high as it maybe should be

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Id love to know the progression rate / numbers from England U20 representation to Premier league caps (in all positions). I imagine its not as high as it maybe should be

I don't look at U20 as anything other than something mildly interesting in its own right. The Pollocks of this world may shine,
but no real barometer of potential professionals, let alone future internationals.

Just too many variables - rates of physical maturity and natural talent can still take you disproportionately far at that age. Then there's appetite - some people think there's more to life than rugby etc - the drop out rate for talented kids at this age is huge across all sports. And lastly the U20s regenerate every couple of years anyway so there are always a lot of U20 capped kids becoming available and a diminished league and clubs looking for ready made options doesn't help either.

Too early to say much on the 24 RWC winners but 3 or 4 are already making their presence felt at club level - Pollock, and couple of props particularly.

If we go back to the 2016 winning 23 I'd say that they all had pro contracts with prem clubs to one degree or another (which surprised me) at various times, but with massively varying degrees of success / duration which I'd guess is probably fairly typical - just 2 significant international careers in Stuart and Marchant, J Willis really should have been another. A few with a modest number of caps who never sealed a regular place e.g Malins and Randall. Some solid clubmen in the likes of Evans and Chick, some who made a bit of impact then vanished like Mallinder and Boyce and a few who never locked down a regular club place and have either dropped down leagues, given up or gone abroad - both locks look to be playing in the US.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I agree with everything you say..and far from putting Bell on a pedestal im purely using him as an example...

There are many routes (BUCS is now becoming a more recognised path now aswell) and i appreciate players develop at different ages and rates.

Id love to know the progression rate / numbers from England U20 representation to Premier league caps (in all positions). I imagine its not as high as it maybe should be

I did this for front rowers on this forum a while back. No idea how to find that though…..too many posts

 

[BPM]

I don't look at U20 as anything other than something mildly interesting in its own right. The Pollocks of this world may shine,
but no real barometer of potential professionals, let alone future internationals.

Just too many variables - rates of physical maturity and natural talent can still take you disproportionately far at that age. Then there's appetite - some people think there's more to life than rugby etc - the drop out rate for talented kids at this age is huge across all sports. And lastly the U20s regenerate every couple of years anyway so there are always a lot of U20 capped kids becoming available and a diminished league and clubs looking for ready made options doesn't help either.

Too early to say much on the 24 RWC winners but 3 or 4 are already making their presence felt at club level - Pollock, and couple of props particularly.

If we go back to the 2016 winning 23 I'd say that they all had pro contracts with prem clubs to one degree or another (which surprised me) at various times, but with massively varying degrees of success / duration which I'd guess is probably fairly typical - just 2 significant international careers in Stuart and Marchant, J Willis really should have been another. A few with a modest number of caps who never sealed a regular place e.g Malins and Randall. Some solid clubmen in the likes of Evans and Chick, some who made a bit of impact then vanished like Mallinder and Boyce and a few who never locked down a regular club place and have either dropped down leagues, given up or gone abroad - both locks look to be playing in the US.

I think Jack Walker was in that squad too.

‘Solid clubman’ is a harsh description of Evans IMO. He’s definitely good enough to be a test level player, he’s just extremely unfortunate to be in an era where the competition is insane.

I also think Marchant would have nailed down the starting 13 shirt if it hadn’t been for Eddie Jones.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I think Jack Walker was in that squad too.

'Solid clubman' is a harsh description of Evans IMO. He's definitely good enough to be a test level player, he's just extremely unfortunate to be in an era where the competition is insane.

I also think Marchant would have nailed down the starting 13 shirt if it hadn't been for Eddie Jones.

I may be wrong but I look at Evan’s and think, if he added 10kg he’d be a test player. Right now looks like an underpowered Burry.

That’s my view but I may be wrong.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

‘Solid clubman' is a harsh description of Evans IMO. He's definitely good enough to be a test level player, he's just extremely unfortunate to be in an era where the competition is insane.

Maybe if you take that as meaning ‘ordinary’. Very good player who’s definitely been an influential club regular, but he’s also never really seriously been in the international conversation either. Competition is particularly tough now, but you can only ever really be judged against your peers and now would probably be no more than 5th choice at best.

Far worse players have racked up a good number of caps, but he’s also not at the top of my list of unluckiest players either. B Curry would be higher up that list for one.

 

[BPM]

Updated the depth chart.

Interestingly Charlie Bracken is the only addition. It’ll be interesting to see if this call-up leads to more game time with Saracens. Of all the obstacles he could be facing, van Zyl isn’t the most daunting.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Updated the depth chart.

Interestingly Charlie Bracken is the only addition. It'll be interesting to see if this call-up leads to more game time with Saracens. Of all the obstacles he could be facing, van Zyl isn't the most daunting.

How to edit a post from that long ago! It won’t let me do that when I see a typo in any of mine.

 

[BPM]

I didn’t do anything special … just hit edit

 

[Which Tyler]

I didn't do anything special … just hit edit

How the hell do you have that power?

Hang on - going to find a thread I started to see if that's the difference

ETA: Nope - as for DSLD, I get an hour or so, then editing rights are removed

 

[BPM]

Dunno? But I can still edit it …

 

[Ddanno]

How to edit a post from that long ago! It won't let me do that when I see a typo in any of mine.

It might be something to do with the post being quoted or liked maybe?

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

It might be something to do with the post being quoted or liked maybe?

I guess mine always get liked…..(even if it’s just by my mum)

 

[Which Tyler]

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

To move the depth talk back onto here, Outside the top 3 choices the depth generally doesn't matter

Like all that really matters is this IMO
1. Genge, Baxter, Rodd
2. LCD, George, Dan,
3. Stuart, Heyes, AOF
4. Chessum, Martin, Clark
5. Itoje, Coles, Isiekwe
6. Curry, CCS, Hill
7. Curry, Underhill, Pollock/Pepper?
8. Earl, Willis, Dombrandt
9. Mitchell, JVP, Randall
10. F.Smith, M.Smith, Ford
11. IFW, Slightholme, Muir
12. Dingwall, Atkinson, Ojomoh,
13. Lawrence, Beard, Slade
14. Freeman, Roebuck, Murley,
15. Furbank, Steward, Carpenter

I don't think that as a unit is that much better than any other top tier 1 nation outside of Scotland and Argentina (Although Argentina's depth is growing rapidly)
First choice outside 12 and what we do with 6 and locks (Is Chessum our best at 6 or lock) generally picks itself I feel.

But I think our backs once you get into second choice has question marks over it and I think our third choice forwards have some big question marks, hopefully Argentina might help with those question marks