A Political Thread pt. 2

[AlRums]

Definitions of Genocide and Related Crimes | United Nations

www.un.org

From that link, Israel fall pretty easily under items 1 and 3 of the definition of genocide.

1. Killing members of the group;
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

For ethnic cleansing they state:-

Yugoslavia defined ethnic cleansing in its interim report S/25274 as "… rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove persons of given groups from the area." In its final report S/1994/674, the same Commission described ethnic cleansing as “… a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas.”

I don't see an awful lot of difference.

 

[Ddanno]

2 is there and 4 is arguable; you're hardly likely to have kids during a famine

 

[Welsh Exile]

Definitions of Genocide and Related Crimes | United Nations

www.un.org

Yes, says the same thing as the link posted earlier about the difference between ethnic cleansing and genocide.

 

[Ddanno]

Apologies, I can't get through this thread half the time with you know who around

 

[Ddanno]

You can stop shovelling that emoji onto my posts as well. Just **** off and stick me on ignore.

 

[dirty harry]

From that link, Israel fall pretty easily under items 1 and 3 of the definition of genocide.

1. Killing members of the group;
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

For ethnic cleansing they state:-

Yugoslavia defined ethnic cleansing in its interim report S/25274 as "… rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove persons of given groups from the area." In its final report S/1994/674, the same Commission described ethnic cleansing as "… a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas."

I don't see an awful lot of difference.

I mean, Isreal only fall under any of them if you can prove intent.

Isreals intentions stated currently are very clear, to rescue hostages and destroy Hamas. They have not claimed to want to eradicate Palestinians, or commit any of the genocidal definitions above, they merely don't care about the damage they cause or the civilians who get in the way.

Isreal would point to acts such as leaflet drops, on an area, stating their intentions, and highlighting anyone left in the area would be deemed a combatant. I think I read somewhere that IDF consult lawyers before these types of actions.

Ultimately, as @Welsh Exile stated, there are always war crimes committed, Isreal certainly are committing their fare share, as are Hamas by using civilians as shields.

There was a really good guardian article about the term 'if I knew than what I knew now' that's been used recently, think the Iraq war, or Clinton's failed campaign, this term may well become as prominent in this case, but it remains to be seen.

EDIT: found it.

Israel is clear about its intentions in Gaza – world leaders cannot plead ignorance of what is coming | Owen Jones

The UN is warning of a ‘risk of genocide’ against Palestinians. Future pleas of ‘If I knew then what I know now’ will not cut it, says Guardian columnist Owen Jones

www.theguardian.com

 

[dirty harry]

You can stop shovelling that emoji onto my posts as well. Just **** off and stick me on ignore.

I don't ignore bud, I like to see everyone's views, even if I don't like them or disagree.

My advice would be to stop thinking about me in every conversation when I'm not around, stop mentioning me, and either block or stop commenting. I don't engage you...

 

[AlRums]

I mean, Isreal only fall under any of them if you can prove intent.

Isreals intentions stated currently are very clear, to rescue hostages and destroy Hamas. They have not claimed to want to eradicate Palestinians, or commit any of the genocidal definitions above, they merely don't care about the damage they cause or the civilians who get in the way.

Isreal would point to acts such as leaflet drops, on an area, stating their intentions, and highlighting anyone left in the area would be deemed a combatant. I think I read somewhere that IDF consult lawyers before these types of actions.

Ultimately, as @Welsh Exile stated, there are always war crimes committed, Isreal certainly are committing their fare share, as are Hamas by using civilians as shields.

There was a really good guardian article about the term 'if I knew than what I knew now' that's been used recently, think the Iraq war, or Clinton's failed campaign, this term may well become as prominent in this case, but it remains to be seen.

EDIT: found it.

Israel is clear about its intentions in Gaza – world leaders cannot plead ignorance of what is coming | Owen Jones

The UN is warning of a ‘risk of genocide’ against Palestinians. Future pleas of ‘If I knew then what I know now’ will not cut it, says Guardian columnist Owen Jones

www.theguardian.com

Your opinion is irrelevant and unwanted.

 

[McTallshort]

From that link, Israel fall pretty easily under items 1 and 3 of the definition of genocide.

1. Killing members of the group;
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

For ethnic cleansing they state:-

Yugoslavia defined ethnic cleansing in its interim report S/25274 as "… rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove persons of given groups from the area." In its final report S/1994/674, the same Commission described ethnic cleansing as "… a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas."

I don't see an awful lot of difference.

No neither do I and I saw it for myself in Bosnia. The blockade of food supplies into Gaza are also the kinda stuff that was happening in Somalia and why the Americans deployed there.

 

[dirty harry]

Your opinion is irrelevant and unwanted.

That was a quick concession of your argument mate haha

 

[Welsh Exile]

No neither do I and I saw it for myself in Bosnia. The blockade of food supplies into Gaza are also the kinda stuff that was happening in Somalia and why the Americans deployed there.

How many people have died of starvation in Gaza? I remember asking this about half a year ago. None dead then and none dead now is my understanding. If people have been starved for the last year and a half I find it hard to believe none have died yet. I’m sure there’s food shortages and what not but not seen a single death from starvation yet but yet everyone talks like everyone in Gaza is about to drop dead from lack of food. Strange.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Last I saw some global famine committee said there was no famine in Gaza but that was last year.

 

[McTallshort]

**** me that's a brutal thing to write @Welsh Exile

Gaza at risk of famine if Israel doesn't lift ban on aid -- food security group | The Times of Israel

www.timesofisrael.com

One in five people in Gaza face starvation, report warns, as Israel’s months-long blockade continues | CNN

One in five people in the Gaza Strip are facing starvation as the entire territory edges closer to famine, a new United Nations-backed report warns, after nearly three months of Israel’s blockade of critically needed humanitarian aid.

amp.cnn.com

People in Gaza starving, sick and dying as aid blockade continues

The risk of famine in Gaza is increasing with the deliberate withholding of humanitarian aid, including food, in the ongoing blockade. The entire 2.1 million population of Gaza is facing prolonged food shortages, with nearly half a million people in a catastrophic situation of hunger, acute...

www.who.int

 

[Welsh Exile]

**** me that's a brutal thing to write

Gaza at risk of famine if Israel doesn't lift ban on aid -- food security group | The Times of Israel

www.timesofisrael.com

One in five people in Gaza face starvation, report warns, as Israel’s months-long blockade continues | CNN

One in five people in the Gaza Strip are facing starvation as the entire territory edges closer to famine, a new United Nations-backed report warns, after nearly three months of Israel’s blockade of critically needed humanitarian aid.

amp.cnn.com

People in Gaza starving, sick and dying as aid blockade continues

The risk of famine in Gaza is increasing with the deliberate withholding of humanitarian aid, including food, in the ongoing blockade. The entire 2.1 million population of Gaza is facing prolonged food shortages, with nearly half a million people in a catastrophic situation of hunger, acute...

www.who.int

Yeah, I've seen a lot about food shortages, things like "facing" or "at risk" of starvation like in that article but not, you know, thousands of people dying which is what I consider a famine to be but then you'll maybe say my definition is too narrow like my definition of genocide.

Interesting you brought up Somalia. What, over qtr of a million dead from starvation there. Yemen and Syria again hundreds of thousands but yet big focus on Gaza again

 

[Welsh Exile]

**** me that's a brutal thing to write @Welsh Exile

Gaza at risk of famine if Israel doesn't lift ban on aid -- food security group | The Times of Israel

www.timesofisrael.com

One in five people in Gaza face starvation, report warns, as Israel’s months-long blockade continues | CNN

One in five people in the Gaza Strip are facing starvation as the entire territory edges closer to famine, a new United Nations-backed report warns, after nearly three months of Israel’s blockade of critically needed humanitarian aid.

amp.cnn.com

People in Gaza starving, sick and dying as aid blockade continues

The risk of famine in Gaza is increasing with the deliberate withholding of humanitarian aid, including food, in the ongoing blockade. The entire 2.1 million population of Gaza is facing prolonged food shortages, with nearly half a million people in a catastrophic situation of hunger, acute...

www.who.int

I just asked a question. Brutal would be to say that it’s good or who cares

 

[Ddanno]

Go without food for a week, see how you feel

 

[Welsh Exile]

Go without food for a week, see how you feel

Probably pretty hungry. What's your point? I never doubted there are food shortages and real problems there but I just asked how many people are we talking about death wise. It's easy to throw around words like Genocide and starvation but the numbers don't really seem to stack up for me.

 

[McTallshort]

Yeah, I've seen a lot about food shortages, things like "facing" or "at risk" of starvation like in that article but not, you know, thousands of people dying which is what I consider a famine to be but then you'll maybe say my definition is too narrow like my definition of genocide.

Interesting you brought up Somalia. What, over qtr of a million dead from starvation there. Yemen and Syria again hundreds of thousands but yet big focus on Gaza again

So it's ok to starve people and deny them medical supplies as long as they aren't actually dying right now? Not sure even Dirty Harry would have the balls to write that

 

[Welsh Exile]

So it's ok to starve people and deny them medical supplies as long as they aren't actually dying right now? Not sure even Dirty Harry would have the balls to write that

No, that’s a strawman. I never made a normative claim, I asked a descriptive question about how many people are dying of starvation seeing as there is apparently a famine (you referenced Somalia where over qtr of a million people died of starvation) so I thought a good bench mark.

 

[McTallshort]

Probably pretty hungry. What's your point? I never doubted there are food shortages and real problems there but I just asked how many people are we talking about death wise. It's easy to throw around words like Genocide and starvation but the numbers don't really seem to stack up for me.

******* hell