Overhype of "world's best" Dan Cole

[Draggs]

Bog off, derailing another thread

 

[irelandfan123]

I'm sure it was a Halfpenny foden thread, english getting all up in your grill, I put the first thing about Kearney in jest.
Just to think the other day we where all agreeing on the stamping thread, can't we all just make love and peace?
P.S Cole is a decent player and I am clueless when it comes to scrum play so all I will say is he is decent in the loose, something Jones isn't quite as good at nowadays

 

[big ginger 8]

Bog off, derailing another thread

You know whos fantastic? Jamie Heaslip.

Oh and Craig Gilroy>Shane Williams.

 

[Draggs]

If we all got along, it wouldn't be any fun.
We can ***** each other out to our hearts content, just on the appropriate thread.

 

[irelandfan123]

You know whos fantastic? Jamie Heaslip.

Oh and Craig Gilroy>Shane Williams.

tooooo far

 

[psychic duck]

Haha,
10/10, thread of the year.

I think if his name was Colekashvili or Cole-Jones we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Poor post. I wrote my reasons above, and from that it would seem that you haven't read what I wrote at all and just the title of the article.

You don't actually state any occaisions or examples of a big scrummaging performance by Cole in a big knockout match or big international.

Also wrongly read my arguments as I'm just saying x is better than x. I posted the evidence above such as the Premiership final, you tell me why Cole is better?

Also you say I'm biased, which isn't the truth. I actually think the Georgian props are getting a bit overrated by the mythical standing as few people watch them that often and just know they are quite a few around the Top 14, sure they destroy weak Tier 2 scrums like Canada and USA, but at the Rugby World Cup the Georgian scrum didn't bother Scotland, England or Argentina that much.

Jgenti is the only Georgian prop who I rate as top class scrummaging wise but he has problems discipline wise on and off the pitch, Zirakashvili is on the level below and is a good prop but not in the top tier, Kakovin is good but not in the top tier. Kubriashvili seems to have gone backwards since keeping Hayman out of the Toulon team. Nariashvili and Zhvania are still just prospects.

Accusing me of Welsh bias, is also just a cheap way of skipping the debate and failing to actually say why you think Cole is the best in the world.

Sorry Duck, but he is one of the best in the world. I don't think there is a clear 'best tighthead in the world', instead there are a number that are there or thereabouts.

Dan Cole may not be the best scrummaging tighthead in the world (I'd say that is Adam Jones), but he's still extremely strong in this area. He may not be the best carrying tighthead, but he's none too shabby. He is the best tighthead when it comes to the breakdown though. Add these together and you end up with a damn fine all rounded tighthead prop. At the age of just 25, that is quite incredible.

I agree, and I also said he is a very good prop in the OP, just not the best in the world, although I think he may well be by 2015. Just nobody actually read the OP is seems.

I also think your second paragraph sums it perfectly imo as well. Cole isn't the top scrummager, or ball carrier compared to the top props in those areas, but does do a fair amount of unglamorous hard work than some other tightheads don't.

This might be a shock to some few Welsh fans - but we don't all think Wales is the best team in the world. It's a matter of opinion. For example, in my opinion, Healy > Jenkins, Hartley > Hibbard, Ferris > Lydiate, Kearney > Halfpenny, Cole > Jones.
Emphasis on opinion.
You can't ridicule someone for thinking he's the best and then turn around and say 'oh but Adam Jones is the best'.

You're bringing up previous achievements of Jones, but guess what, players get old. I could say O'Driscoll is so much better than Davies, just look at his career. But I can't.

No Welsh fan has claimed that the team is the best in the world. It's Irish/English fans saying that Welsh fans claim this.

You also obviously haven't read the post, I didn't just simply say "x is better than x" as some people are portraying, I gave reasons and evidence. Also I brought up the Wales scrum getting on top of England as recently as 2012. So it's hardly as if I'm resting on an achievement from 2007 or something.

Only the most one eyed Welsh fan would claim all those Welsh players are first choice for the Lions.

Healy is easily ahead of Jenkins at the moment, because Jenkins' form has dropped to a level it has never done so in the past. Most Welsh fans I know have Paul James ahead of Jenkins as well, and given the lack of game time Jenkins is getting at Toulon, I don't see that changing before the Lions tour.

Hibbard hasn't cemented himself as Wales' first choice hooker yet, mainly due to unfortunate injuries. Not a fan of Heartley at all though, he's just as likely to cost us a test due to his thuggish nature as he is to have a good tour. Best is still my no.1, but even his form has dipped a little.

Both Ferris and Lydiate are injured at the moment. No guarantee how either will play after returning. I see no problem for Welsh fans to consider Lydiate ahead of Ferris though after having an absolutely barnstorming 2011-12, including being named 6 nations player of the tournament despite missing the first game. Both are excellent players, and I'd be happy with either, yet neither are guaranteed a place on the plane yet.

Halfpenny has been exceptional in everything he does for Wales in pretty much every single one of his 39 caps. Wales best player last season by quite some distance (Lydiate missed the second-half). He may be still developing his attacking game from fullback, but every other aspect of his play is very good. Kearney and Foden, as well as a few others are up there with him.

As for the Jones v Cole situation, it depends on what the management want to do. If they want to apply maximum pressure on Aus in the scrums, expect Jones to start. If they see Cole as someone that can help out the back-row to counter Pocock etc. at the breakdown maybe Cole will be selected. It is worth remembering that although Jones doesn't turn ball over, his job at the breakdown is to clear out, and he does this very effectively. Adam Jones is all about tight play, he excels in the scrums, at fringe defence and at clearing out rucks. It may not be as exciting as seeing Cole turn over ball, but it can be just as important, especially if you have a genuine 7 to do the turn-over work.

Another well reasoned post Dullonien. You seem to be one of the few who are actually debating and giving reasons, rather than those who just want to accuse of bias and give no reasons or logic to their thinking, and wishing to turn this into another ridiculous Halfpenny/Foden/Kearney debate that hijacked the Welsh thread.

I'm sure it was a Halfpenny foden thread, english getting all up in your grill, I put the first thing about Kearney in jest.
Just to think the other day we where all agreeing on the stamping thread, can't we all just make love and peace?
P.S Cole is a decent player and I am clueless when it comes to scrum play so all I will say is he is decent in the loose, something Jones isn't quite as good at nowadays

Jones has actually got better not worse in the loose these days actually. When Jones was Cole's age he was carrying too much weight, but it was (and he himself points this out) in 2008 when Gatland took over that he changed his attitude about fitness and now he actually makes more tackles/hits more rucks than he used to, as well as improving his scrummaging.

 

[Peat]

Why does every thread turn into a Wales hate?
If it is just an opinion why does everybody chuck a wobbly?

Because it's a really, really stupid opinion blatantly inspired by butthurt that someone dared say Cole was better than Adam Jones.

If ever a thread deserved to descend into tangential bias, stupidity and trolling, it's this one.

edit: Having read the post above, then reread the original post, I'll change my mind and say a not entirely unreasonable opinion argued really, really stupidly.

 

[psychic duck]

Because it's a really, really stupid opinion blatantly inspired by butthurt that someone dared say Cole was better than Adam Jones.

If ever a thread deserved to descend into tangential bias, stupidity and trolling, it's this one.

Wrong. I invited you or others to give evidence and reasons as to why you think Cole is the world's best. And you failed and instead just make posts like this.

I give reasons for my opinion and I've stated them. You haven't.

 

[irelandfan123]

Jones has actually got better not worse in the loose these days actually. When Jones was Cole's age he was carrying too much weight, but it was (and he himself points this out) in 2008 when Gatland took over that he changed his attitude about fitness and now he actually makes more tackles/hits more rucks than he used to, as well as improving his scrummaging.

You have to think he has maybe peaked a bit late then, I'd say Jones isn't as good in the loose as Cole and Cole has a good seven years on Jones, I have no doubt in four years Cole will be invaluable to the Lions and England

 

[Feicarsinn]

2 things on this thread boys:

a) Everyone, if you want to be taken seriously, then actually debate the point. Psychic Duck has made his opinion clear, and made a fairly decent agrument. 90% of responses so far have essentially been "This is stupid, you're so wrong, I'm not even bothering debating this." It's lazy and makes you look ignorant, which is surprising considering the calibre which some guys who have posted on this thread usually display in their posts.

b) Get off your high horse Duck. You can't go around telling people they're wrong like you did to Pete there. It's rude and condescending. Cop on.

 

[psychic duck]

2 things on this thread boys:

a) Everyone, if you want to be taken seriously, then actually debate the point. Psychic Duck has made his opinion clear, and made a fairly decent agrument. 90% of responses so far have essentially been "This is stupid, you're so wrong, I'm not even bothering debating this." It's lazy and makes you look ignorant, which is surprising considering the calibre which some guys who have posted on this thread usually display in their posts.

Exactly. Some are making it seem as if I think Cole is an utterly awful prop who wouldn't make the Cardiff Blues XV and shouldn't be on the Lions tour.

b) Get off your high horse Duck. You can't go around telling people they're wrong like you did to Pete there. It's rude and condescending. Cop on.

I wouldn't respond like normally and if Peat had actually tried to debate, rather than say "a really stupid opinion" for not thinking Cole is world's best, and also incorrectly say my motives are bias.

 

[Peat]

Wrong. I invited you or others to give evidence and reasons as to why you think Cole is the world's best. And you failed and instead just make posts like this.

I give reasons for my opinion and I've stated them. You haven't.

Indeed I have not, by and large, for as stated I feel other people have made the arguments well enough - people you haven't decided to engage with either.

If you are serious about this, then why haven't you acknowledged Tony's point about you completely overlooking his work at the breakdown? Or the Meyer quote posted by smb64? Or admit that my admittedly snarky point about your bringing up of injuries and locks as excuses is completely one-sided and overlooks some well-known detrimental issues to Cole's performances? How comes you say that the Cheetahs-Ospreys games have ended up even in the scrums when Bevington was yellow carded in the first game? There's a great many games that can be excused by saying the ref got it wrong if that's what you reply.

But no. Instead, you talk to the people who'll agree with you, or who will talk about Adam Jones, or something other than the topic.

And then you wonder why people like me and Olyy don't take you seriously and sit around laughing in the thread.

b) Get off your high horse Duck. You can't go around telling people they're wrong like you did to Pete there. It's rude and condescending. Cop on.

WTF who told him my real name!

 

[j'nuh]

Dan Cole is an impressive scrummager and hasn't let England down in that aspect against anyone. He's had a couple of great scrummaging performances on the international stage, the most notable being against Ireland last year. He's also had some good performances against good scrummagers domestically. When Gloucester visited Leicester and Nick Wood was starting for Gloucester, Gloucester had one of those games where every scrum turned into a penalty for Leicester. Dan Cole pretty much destroyed Nick Wood, who is a very good scrummager himself. Tigers have scored 8 penalty tries so far this year IIRC.

You have to remember that when playing for England, Dan Cole hasn't had a top loosehead to work with. Corbisiero was looking the part but got injured and no one talks about him as a potential Lion. Marler is getting better but still hardly known for his scrummaging. Vunipola looks the part, but he's 22 and still isn't a settled favourite for England. Adam Jones gets to work with Gethin Jenkins (very decent in the scrum) and Paul James (one of the best scrummaging looseheads around). He also made his name when Matthew Rees was obviously the best hooker in Europe, and is continuing into a time when Hibbard is probably the best hooker in Europe. I'd say Dan Cole would be up there amongst the best scrummagers in the game and that much will be obvious when England have sorted out the rest of the front row.

But it isn't his set piece that people talk about. It's the fact that he plays like a 7 in the contact at a time when 7s are the most popular players on the field. He makes a lot of turnovers, wins penalties and slows the opposition down. This is the facet of his game that people rate him as possibly the best tighthead in the world. Jenkins never had to be the best scrummager to be rated the best loosehead in the game when he was in his prime. Similar applies to Cole. Is Cole the best tighthead? It's definitely between him and Jones in the NH. I couldn't say for certain about the SH though.

 

[psychic duck]

Indeed I have not, by and large, for as stated I feel other people have made the arguments well enough - people you haven't decided to engage with either.

Nobody has made their arguments actually. The second post was Olyy, ignoring my post and trying to turn this into a debate similar to the Halfpenny/Kearney/Foden ones.

If you are serious about this, then why haven't you acknowledged Tony's point about you completely overlooking his work at the breakdown? Or the Meyer quote posted by smb64?

I responded to breakdown on Dullonien post.

Or admit that my admittedly snarky point about your bringing up of injuries and locks as excuses is completely one-sided and overlooks some well-known detrimental issues to Cole's performances?

You could have mentioned about Cole's scrummaging like J'nuh does in a well reasoned post.

How comes you say that the Cheetahs-Ospreys games have ended up even in the scrums when Bevington was yellow carded in the first game? There's a great many games that can be excused by saying the ref got it wrong if that's what you reply.

I actually specifically was referring to the second match where Adam Jones was playing the scrums were even. Adam Jones was injured in the first match, and although Bevington got carded after a couple of collapses it wasn't a case where Leicester were especially shunting the Ospreys backwards and dominating a great deal tbh.

But no. Instead, you talk to the people who'll agree with you, or who will talk about Adam Jones, or something other than the topic.

And then you wonder why people like me and Olyy don't take you seriously and sit around laughing in the thread.

How is my post above off the topic?

You posted before I responded to anybody, so therefore your reasoning that you are doing posts that misreading my opinion and try and start a troll thread because of my responses makes no sense.

Dan Cole is an impressive scrummager and hasn't let England down in that aspect against anyone. He's had a couple of great scrummaging performances on the international stage, the most notable being against Ireland last year. He's also had some good performances against good scrummagers domestically. When Gloucester visited Leicester and Nick Wood was starting for Gloucester, Gloucester had one of those games where every scrum turned into a penalty for Leicester. Dan Cole pretty much destroyed Nick Wood, who is a very good scrummager himself. Tigers have scored 8 penalty tries so far this year IIRC.

You have to remember that when playing for England, Dan Cole hasn't had a top loosehead to work with. Corbisiero was looking the part but got injured and no one talks about him as a potential Lion. Marler is getting better but still hardly known for his scrummaging. Vunipola looks the part, but he's 22 and still isn't a settled favourite for England. Adam Jones gets to work with Gethin Jenkins (very decent in the scrum) and Paul James (one of the best scrummaging looseheads around). He also made his name when Matthew Rees was obviously the best hooker in Europe, and is continuing into a time when Hibbard is probably the best hooker in Europe. I'd say Dan Cole would be up there amongst the best scrummagers in the game and that much will be obvious when England have sorted out the rest of the front row.

But it isn't his set piece that people talk about. It's the fact that he plays like a 7 in the contact at a time when 7s are the most popular players on the field. He makes a lot of turnovers, wins penalties and slows the opposition down. This is the facet of his game that people rate him as possibly the best tighthead in the world. Jenkins never had to be the best scrummager to be rated the best loosehead in the game when he was in his prime. Similar applies to Cole. Is Cole the best tighthead? It's definitely between him and Jones in the NH. I couldn't say for certain about the SH though.

Finally a post which sensibly states reasoning and logic.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

 

[Big Ewis]

oh my God, the arguing going on here !! :lol:
bohhhhhhh the nightmare !!!! Quoting and replying sentence per sentence !! :boese0556kf:

Yeh so uh Cole's very good but not the best in the world. Point made.

 

[coonor]

Lot be fair, I'd penalise Cole in this instant!

I actually like Cole, strong scrummager, good at the breakdown (although he needs to work on staying on his feet) and solid carrier.

 

[Feicarsinn]

oh my God, the arguing going on here !! :lol:
bohhhhhhh the nightmare !!!! Quoting and replying sentence per sentence !! :boese0556kf:

Yeh so uh Cole's very good but not the best in the world. Point made.

You'd swear the forum is for debate or something <_<.

 

[Draggs]

You'd swear the forum is for debate or something <_<.

Says who?!?!

You want to fight me Feic?

 

[nickdnz]

Funny how people just ignore the Super Rugby props - until they own up in the NH (excluding Australian's).

As Cooner may be referring to (and something I know about) - I'd penalize Cole there. If you look at his hand he isn't binding onto his jersey - but rather his arm. What he's doing is twisting his arm inwards which essentially puts the other prop off balance and unable to generate power. Oldest trick in the book - but not at all legal.