The Welsh Regions Joining the Premiership?

[ratsapprentice]

I don't think so.

In theory the national team doesn't take precedence, although in practice it clearly will do but only to a degree.
The Union is responsible for the health of the game as a whole in their country or region.
In the pyramidal structure that rugby has, all levels rely on each other.
The national game will crumble without grassroots, but equally the national team is arguably the most important tool for growing the grassroots.
Every tier of rugby is interdependent, that's why having a unified system is so effective and why having independent bodies in the structure leads to inefficiency when going from the bottom of the pyramid (grassroots) to the pinnacle (international rugby).

 

[Amiga500]

The way i see it, 79% of the 6N domestic teams are unhappy with the status quo and wish to see a change. That they are not being listened to is the act of dictatorships.

The way I see it you've neglected about 99% of all the teams within each of the 6N.

 

[St George]

The way I see it you've neglected about 99% of all the teams within each of the 6N.

That's why you and I will never see eye to eye whilst you come out with comments like that.

The 99% you say i have neglected are about as close to getting to the top tier of Euro competition as me and my mates from down the pub. The 99% do have a say via their respective Unions, but IMO are not in a position to say anything on what it is like to play in and under a Eurocomp and Euro agreements.
I cant talk for other nations, but the PRL does represent teams outside the Premiership who have a share in the league due to previous participation (i believe).

The 79% quote is from the current status quo and IMO is a more significant point to where the whole debacle stands than quoting teams who struggle to get man & his dog to turn up.

 

[St George]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ru...-WRU-make-threat-regions-plot-break-away.html

The nightmare scenario is about to start from within Wales that will have far reaching ramifications for rugby in Europe.

A lot has been said about the PRL and it's alledged grab for power, but i for one have not seen it that way and see what the WRU are doing as far worse for the game of rugby than anything else. Dont just read the article, which is usually journalist biased, but check out the comments. I also look at Wales Online and check the comments of fans from there. Put them all together with the demos that fans staged over the last few games, and you get a picture of a fanbase that has totally lost it with the WRU.

 

[dullonien]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ru...-WRU-make-threat-regions-plot-break-away.html

The nightmare scenario is about to start from within Wales that will have far reaching ramifications for rugby in Europe.

A lot has been said about the PRL and it's alledged grab for power, but i for one have not seen it that way and see what the WRU are doing as far worse for the game of rugby than anything else. Dont just read the article, which is usually journalist biased, but check out the comments. I also look at Wales Online and check the comments of fans from there. Put them all together with the demos that fans staged over the last few games, and you get a picture of a fanbase that has totally lost it with the WRU.

Don't take too much notice of the comment on Wales Online in particular. They have always been anti WRU. I'd imagine there are as many, if not more rugby fans in Wales that have lost faith in the regions, and have done for years.

Neither side are blameless in this, but I personally have lost faith in the regions and RRW. They have shown that they are incapable of running things properly, with a very amateur approach to most of the things they do, from marketing the regional game (I spend more time organising a night out with mates than they did on the promotion of the festive derbies), the hiring of coaches which has a distinctly 'jobs for the boys' approach, and their recruitment of players. Originally the Ospreys seemed to be on the right tracks, building a strong squad, and recruiting some experienced coaches. The coaches really didn't work out with Andrew Hore, Scott Johnson and co. earning big bucks and not delivering.

It's obvious that even the benefactors have lost a certain amount of faith in the regions too. Peter Thomas is still one of the richest blokes in Wales, but he's unwilling to plough lots of money into a failing product it seems. I think this is the WRU stance as well. Why give the regions more money when they don't appear capable of using it in a sensible way?

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Put them all together with the demos that fans staged over the last few games, and you get a picture of a fanbase that has totally lost it with the WRU.

The regions are making a strong argument and are winning the PR battle at the moment but I dispute the fact that the "fanbase has totally lost it with the WRU". A minority have been discommoded by this.

75,000 fans turn up in the Millenium Stadium to watch Wales play. There is perhaps a hardcore of 30,000 which support the regions regularly. Why aren't the other 45,000 who follow Wales turning up? The argument is that the Raboleague is unattractive yet across the water in Ireland, Ulster, Connacht and Leinster are getting record crowds in the league and Munster's crowds in Limerick, while dipping, are still the envy of most.

The WRU aren't blameless in this by any means and seem to be hell bent on confrontation. The underfunding of the regions is scandalous and has, in my opinion, contributed hugely in leading us to where we are today. Surely it can't be more cost effective to set up 3 or 4 new regions in lesser populated areas that working out an arrangement with the existing regions.

For their part, perhaps the regions should have gotten off their asses and marketed their teams with the same gusto that they're now coming out criticizing their home Union. There's a massive untapped market which the regions don't appeal to and they should take a lot of blame for this. How could that star studded Ospreys team of a couple of years ago not get crowds over 10,000? That's not Roger Lewis' fault. Having to fly to most away game is exactly the same for the other participating teams so it's not a uniquely Welsh problem.

As an aside, who made the shambolic decision to move the Blues into Cardiff City Stadium a couple of years ago; the region themselves or the WRU? Whoever it was should have their head on a stick!

 

[dullonien]

As an aside, who made the shambolic decision to move the Blues into Cardiff City Stadium a couple of years ago; the region themselves or the WRU? Whoever it was should have their head on a stick!

It was the regions decision, and it was a complete joke. For some reason they thought moving to a new stadium would instantly draw more fans. The worst part about that debacle was that they were paying two rents at the time, with their commitment to the CAP still on-going. They wasted a huge amount of money there and still expect more hand-outs.

It appears that the Ospreys might not be much better with the Liberty Stadium being paid for by Swansea City Council, possibly against European law; and a similar situation with Parc Y Scarlets with the 20+ million given to the Scarlets by Carmarthen Council looking similarly dodgy.

This is my problem, whilst the WRU possibly should have increased the funding to the regions to keep them from losing the international players which have left, it doesn't detract from the issues the regions have with managing their own finances and how they run things.

At least the WRU have shown in recent times that they can manage their own finances well, they can market international games successfully, are capable of recruiting top coaches, and have provided success on the international stage. A lot of people have lingering opinions of the WRU from the shambolic ways things used to be run, from running at a loss, to the way they handled the Ruddock and Jenkins era's. Things have changed, and I think Roger Lewis and co. who weren't involved at the advent of regional rugby realise that the current regional structure isn't sustainable, something which the PriceWaterhouseCoopers report also alluded to.

 

[McTallshort]

The regions are making a strong argument and are winning the PR battle at the moment but I dispute the fact that the "fanbase has totally lost it with the WRU". A minority have been discommoded by this.

75,000 fans turn up in the Millenium Stadium to watch Wales play. There is perhaps a hardcore of 30,000 which support the regions regularly. Why aren't the other 45,000 who follow Wales turning up? The argument is that the Raboleague is unattractive yet across the water in Ireland, Ulster, Connacht and Leinster are getting record crowds in the league and Munster's crowds in Limerick, while dipping, are still the envy of most.

The WRU aren't blameless in this by any means and seem to be hell bent on confrontation. The underfunding of the regions is scandalous and has, in my opinion, contributed hugely in leading us to where we are today. Surely it can't be more cost effective to set up 3 or 4 new regions in lesser populated areas that working out an arrangement with the existing regions.

For their part, perhaps the regions should have gotten off their asses and marketed their teams with the same gusto that they're now coming out criticizing their home Union. There's a massive untapped market which the regions don't appeal to and they should take a lot of blame for this. How could that star studded Ospreys team of a couple of years ago not get crowds over 10,000? That's not Roger Lewis' fault. Having to fly to most away game is exactly the same for the other participating teams so it's not a uniquely Welsh problem.

As an aside, who made the shambolic decision to move the Blues into Cardiff City Stadium a couple of years ago; the region themselves or the WRU? Whoever it was should have their head on a stick!

2 things with this:

First, they only get 75000 if they are playing England/Ireland/NZ etc, against Somoa I think it was far less than that.

Second, Wales play at the MS only 6 times a year 7 at the most, the regions play weekly so its far harder getting paying fans to come in week in week out when there is Premiership football on live down the road which is something the Irish regions dont have to compete against.

To me it shows what happens when a Union wants total control of everything but are not willing to stump up the players weekly wages and that should be a lesson to lots of people on here who think the clubs should be crushed in favour of the unions, yes Wales have done better than most Internationally but at the cost of its once proud domestic game. Would hate that to happen in England.

 

[psychic duck]

The regions are making a strong argument and are winning the PR battle at the moment but I dispute the fact that the "fanbase has totally lost it with the WRU". A minority have been discommoded by this.

Any sane fan has lost it with the WRU. They are proposing a complete nutjob plan for Welsh domestic rugby.

75,000 fans turn up in the Millenium Stadium to watch Wales play. There is perhaps a hardcore of 30,000 which support the regions regularly. Why aren't the other 45,000 who follow Wales turning up?

Because they don't like rugby. They are just people who use it as an excuse to be patriotic really. Many of the Millennium Stadium crowd probably watches Cardiff City and doesn't even know anything about the Rabo.

The argument is that the Raboleague is unattractive yet across the water in Ireland, Ulster, Connacht and Leinster are getting record crowds in the league and Munster's crowds in Limerick, while dipping, are still the envy of most.

All 3 teams who respectively have had their best periods of success in recent times, and another who has had a sustained period before that. Irish crowds were relatively poor in the 90's, the glory hunter effect is applying to them now, there is little to suggest it wouldn't happen to the Welsh regions either.

The WRU aren't blameless in this by any means and seem to be hell bent on confrontation. The underfunding of the regions is scandalous and has, in my opinion, contributed hugely in leading us to where we are today. Surely it can't be more cost effective to set up 3 or 4 new regions in lesser populated areas that working out an arrangement with the existing regions.

This.

For their part, perhaps the regions should have gotten off their asses and marketed their teams with the same gusto that they're now coming out criticizing their home Union. There's a massive untapped market which the regions don't appeal to and they should take a lot of blame for this. How could that star studded Ospreys team of a couple of years ago not get crowds over 10,000? That's not Roger Lewis' fault. Having to fly to most away game is exactly the same for the other participating teams so it's not a uniquely Welsh problem.

Where's the untapped market? The problem the regions made was trying to make efforts to appease the villagists who lost their Celtic Warriors side. It was pointless, marketing to them was an utter failure. The likes of Pontypridd would complain whatever the Blues did. It was a wasted effort bothering to market to them.

Also the WRU took out about 17 of that Ospreys team you refer to, playing them in a 4th hard Autumn International the week before the Heineken Cup started. Those that came through that not injured hadn't been with the squad for 6 weeks before the Heineken Cup first round, at least the IRFU don't greedily hurt their Heineken Cup teams chances for an annoying 4th international which hasn't been won for years. Also the Ospreys team in 2012 that beat Leinster in the Rabo final had a front 5 of James, Hibbard, Jones, Jones and Evans. All Lions, and now all likely to leave thanks to the WRU ripping off the regions that provide them internationals. Since his international debut, Sam Warburton has played about 40 Wales caps and about 55 Blues caps, yet the latter is expected to pay him as one of their top earners for a player who gets taken away for 6 weeks at a time and often comes back injured.

Don't take too much notice of the comment on Wales Online in particular. They have always been anti WRU. I'd imagine there are as many, if not more rugby fans in Wales that have lost faith in the regions, and have done for years.

Neither side are blameless in this, but I personally have lost faith in the regions and RRW. They have shown that they are incapable of running things properly, with a very amateur approach to most of the things they do, from marketing the regional game (I spend more time organising a night out with mates than they did on the promotion of the festive derbies), the hiring of coaches which has a distinctly 'jobs for the boys' approach, and their recruitment of players. Originally the Ospreys seemed to be on the right tracks, building a strong squad, and recruiting some experienced coaches. The coaches really didn't work out with Andrew Hore, Scott Johnson and co. earning big bucks and not delivering.

It's obvious that even the benefactors have lost a certain amount of faith in the regions too. Peter Thomas is still one of the richest blokes in Wales, but he's unwilling to plough lots of money into a failing product it seems. I think this is the WRU stance as well. Why give the regions more money when they don't appear capable of using it in a sensible way?

You mean the regional derbies where the Scarlets and Dragons both have had their best crowds of the season?

You're talking rubbish. The regions need more money to keep the players they produce and have competitive squads, it's simple. Finding coaching appointments as the seemingly only reason not to is pretty weak, and it's only really the Scarlets who have a policy of jobs for themselves approach by the way, so to put that on all regions further weakens the point. The regions have made mistakes mostly in marketing but that's not reason to for the WRU to try and starve them to death. You obviously don't want competitive professional rugby in Wales if you are backing the WRU to try and kill them for an utterly ludicrous alternative.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Where's the untapped market?

Nearly 1.1m people live in the Cardiff/South Wales valleys metro area (which covers the Dragons and Blues). It's the 11th biggest metro area in the Great Britain. 462,000 people live in the Swansea metro area (covering Swansea, Port Talbot and Neath) making it the 19th largest in the UK/NI. Surely with markets this size, a competent marketing department can get more than 10,000 people through the gate each week.

Ireland is a country full of event junkies. When Ulster and Leinster weren't going too well, these teams drew 50,000 for a new year's eve fixture due to great marketing. Stade Francais got 80,000 through the gate a number of times due to great marketing. The Big Game over the Xmas period in Twickenham gets enrmous crowds due to marketing. Do you think all of these fans are dyed in the wool rugby supporters? Not a bit of it but they go along, buy a jersey in the club shop of the stadium, drink from the club bars, pay to download the app and are a huge part of their provinces/clubs funding each year.

The Millenium double header is a step in the right direction towards marketing their game. I hope once the whole mess is sorted out (and it will be) that the regions don't go back to sitting on their hands and blaming the WRU and instead focus on growing their support base which they're patently failed to do. Taking an example from Ireland, Connacht are renowned for playing the poor mouth and blaming all around them. They finally looked at themselves, realized that moaning gets them nowhere, worked with the IRFU in creating new structures off the field and are now improving their support base off the field thanks to better marketing in Galway and an improved spectator experience. While being in the Heineken Cup has helped this, their crowds have also grown in the Pro 12 enabling them to sign a better quality of recruit from abroad. Players like Dan Parks and Craig Clarke would have never been on Connacht's raidar before they got their act together and professionalized in a meaningful way.

 

[dullonien]

You mean the regional derbies where the Scarlets and Dragons both have had their best crowds of the season?

You're talking rubbish. The regions need more money to keep the players they produce and have competitive squads, it's simple. Finding coaching appointments as the seemingly only reason not to is pretty weak, and it's only really the Scarlets who have a policy of jobs for themselves approach by the way, so to put that on all regions further weakens the point. The regions have made mistakes mostly in marketing but that's not reason to for the WRU to try and starve them to death. You obviously don't want competitive professional rugby in Wales if you are backing the WRU to try and kill them for an utterly ludicrous alternative.

Big crowds turned out despite the marketing, not because of it. If you think calling a press conference 18 hours beforehand, with half the coaches not present and the headline player being Ryan Bevington, along with a crappy board propped up against anything at hand, is an acceptable level of marketing, then I don't really know. http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/andy-howell-disorganised-welsh-regions-6428863

It's not just the Scarlets that have recruited coaches with a 'jobs for the boys approach'. The Ospreys currently have Steve Tandy as head coach, who had next to no coaching experience when appointed. Before that they have Sean Holley and Humphreys who themselves were inexperienced when they first started (even if Holley was involved under Lyn Jones). Moving on to the Blues, who persevered with Dai Young for almost 10 years, another complete novice when he was first given the job. Baber and Burnell followed, oh what a treat! The Dragons had Darren Edwards for a couple of seasons, another fine choice!

Having quality coaches is paramount to success, and the regions have rolled from one train wreck to another in that regard. No point keeping top players if the coaches aren't up to scratch, the Ospreys during their 'galactico's' period proved that, with a squad all but a number of teams would have been envious of, they achieved nothing of real note. You dismiss it as a weak argument, I see it as a prime example of their incompetence.

Edit. I also think that the WRU's propsal of setting up new regions is ludicrous, but I also don't agree with blindly throwing more money at the failing regions. They can't compete financially with France and England, even with a little more funding, so the regions need to radically alter what they are doing, not simply ***** and moan about lack of funding and blaming the WRU for the uncertainties surrounding European rugby (something the WRU have little control over).

 

[McTallshort]

Nearly 1.1m people live in the Cardiff/South Wales valleys metro area (which covers the Dragons and Blues). It's the 11th biggest metro area in the Great Britain. 462,000 people live in the Swansea metro area (covering Swansea, Port Talbot and Neath) making it the 19th largest in the UK/NI. Surely with markets this size, a competent marketing department can get more than 10,000 people through the gate each week.

Ireland is a country full of event junkies. When Ulster and Leinster weren't going too well, these teams drew 50,000 for a new year's eve fixture due to great marketing. Stade Francais got 80,000 through the gate a number of times due to great marketing. The Big Game over the Xmas period in Twickenham gets enrmous crowds due to marketing. Do you think all of these fans are dyed in the wool rugby supporters? Not a bit of it but they go along, buy a jersey in the club shop of the stadium, drink from the club bars, pay to download the app and are a huge part of their provinces/clubs funding each year.

The Millenium double header is a step in the right direction towards marketing their game. I hope once the whole mess is sorted out (and it will be) that the regions don't go back to sitting on their hands and blaming the WRU and instead focus on growing their support base which they're patently failed to do. Taking an example from Ireland, Connacht are renowned for playing the poor mouth and blaming all around them. They finally looked at themselves, realized that moaning gets them nowhere, worked with the IRFU in creating new structures off the field and are now improving their support base off the field thanks to better marketing in Galway and an improved spectator experience. While being in the Heineken Cup has helped this, their crowds have also grown in the Pro 12 enabling them to sign a better quality of recruit from abroad. Players like Dan Parks and Craig Clarke would have never been on Connacht's raidar before they got their act together and professionalized in a meaningful way.

Are you saying thats a good thing!

 

[Amiga500]

That's why you and I will never see eye to eye whilst you come out with comments like that.

The 99% you say i have neglected are about as close to getting to the top tier of Euro competition as me and my mates from down the pub. The 99% do have a say via their respective Unions, but IMO are not in a position to say anything on what it is like to play in and under a Eurocomp and Euro agreements.
I cant talk for other nations, but the PRL does represent teams outside the Premiership who have a share in the league due to previous participation (i believe).

The 79% quote is from the current status quo and IMO is a more significant point to where the whole debacle stands than quoting teams who struggle to get man & his dog to turn up.

The professional teams fit within a structure that spans all the way from minis to internationals.

If one part of the structure is focused on to the detriment of the others (if said part is not the foundations), then the structure is in danger of collapse.

If professional teams within any nation are allowed to significantly siphon money out of the game that would otherwise fund:
- youth tournaments
- pitch development
- coach development
(just for example)

Then long term, the game will suffer.


That is before you even consider the division between different nations.


The monies from ERC in countries outside of England are not necessarily distributed in a manner reflecting the RFU/PRL distribution system. Same with funds from international games.


If you are going to present an argument based on what is best for the majority - you should maybe consider the boundaries of what you consider to be the constituents.

 

[psychic duck]

Big crowds turned out despite the marketing, not because of it. If you think calling a press conference 18 hours beforehand, with half the coaches not present and the headline player being Ryan Bevington, along with a crappy board propped up against anything at hand, is an acceptable level of marketing, then I don't really know. http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/andy-howell-disorganised-welsh-regions-6428863

It's not just the Scarlets that have recruited coaches with a 'jobs for the boys approach'. The Ospreys currently have Steve Tandy as head coach, who had next to no coaching experience when appointed. Before that they have Sean Holley and Humphreys who themselves were inexperienced when they first started (even if Holley was involved under Lyn Jones). Moving on to the Blues, who persevered with Dai Young for almost 10 years, another complete novice when he was first given the job. Baber and Burnell followed, oh what a treat! The Dragons had Darren Edwards for a couple of seasons, another fine choice!

Having quality coaches is paramount to success, and the regions have rolled from one train wreck to another in that regard. No point keeping top players if the coaches aren't up to scratch, the Ospreys during their 'galactico's' period proved that, with a squad all but a number of teams would have been envious of, they achieved nothing of real note. You dismiss it as a weak argument, I see it as a prime example of their incompetence.

Edit. I also think that the WRU's propsal of setting up new regions is ludicrous, but I also don't agree with blindly throwing more money at the failing regions. They can't compete financially with France and England, even with a little more funding, so the regions need to radically alter what they are doing, not simply ***** and moan about lack of funding and blaming the WRU for the uncertainties surrounding European rugby (something the WRU have little control over).

Good lord. You read Andy "Poison Dwarf" Howell and take it seriously? That was a farcical propaganda article by a staunch anti-regions journalist. And in this case, it happened to be the thickest most moronic one there is. Surely you could see that? A press conference sells 0 tickets. They could have sent Sam Warburton and Alun-Wyn Jones there and no more would have been sold as press conferences don't sell tickets. That article was a blatant piece of propaganda and there was no actual merit in the point, yet you fell for it. Unbelievable. The derbies have been great occasions and have seen some the best Welsh crowds of the season.

Steve Tandy was appointed just as the squad was being dismantled. His appointment was a cost cutting measure along with the main squad. It's not an Ospreys policy to give ex players the role. Holley was an interim so as not to rush the following appointment. Cardiff Blues have a Turk in Phil Davies in charge, and the Dragons have Neath's Lyn Jones. Also Dai Young being given the job too early doesn't mean it was a Blues policy, and his backroom staff wasn't Cardiff dominated for the most part. Darren Edwards never played for the Dragons and got the role after coaching Harlequins backs for a couple seasons, again that was just a promotion from within due to cost issues rather than a policy of appointing ex players of the region.

As I said, the only team that has a policy of that is the Scarlets who have Easterby, Mark Jones, Garan Evans all currently there and previously Nigel Davies, Phil Davies and Gareth Jenkins. The other regions appointments were for other reasons.

There is also a stark hypocrisy to your point. Criticising the appointments of the likes of Darren Edwards when these recent appointments were due to the regions being squeezed financially. Applauding the WRU for trying to starve the regions and then criticising the cheap coaching appointments that result from it is a bit dull to be honest. Have you been reading a lot of Andy Howell lately?

The "Galacticos" (a term created by the Western Mail ****wits by the way), the Ospreys had good success in the RaboPro12 throughout that period. But for the main tournament in Europe, they did have some notable results but had some bad luck with some notably horrific pool draws and getting robbed in Biarritz. The Heineken Cup is not a very tough tournament to win, a lot has to fall in place to do so. Munster and Leinster had several years of failure before getting the trophy. Stade Francais and Biarritz both had very good sides for periods but the trophy passed them by. Leicester over a consistent period the best side in England for years yet haven't won it for 12 years. Clermont are scintillating at their best yet have never won.

No Welsh side has a chance of even getting out of the group now. Mostly thanks to the regions being starved and losing all their top players. Which, sadly, is what you seem to be in favour of. Welsh domestic rugby turning even ****ter. In this case it's not just blaming all woe on the WRU, in this case the WRU are responsible for the vast majority of the current mess.

And on the final point, the regions will all get more money in the Premiership from the BT Sport deal, and in turn be in a better place to sign and keep better players. Another thing which you are against of course. For the regions it's a choice of either join the Premiership and survive or lose to the WRU and just die as any sort of competitive entity for good.

 

[Amiga500]

To me it shows what happens when a Union wants total control of everything but are not willing to stump up the players weekly wages

Actually, the WRU were willing to centrally contract players (y'know, pay the weekly wages), as long as they were allowed control of the players.

The regions refused. Instead they want the WRU to give them money which will then be spent as the regions see fit. In an ideal world, that is the ideal solution. But, given the track record of the regions - its no wonder the WRU are thinking "f88k that"...

 

[Amiga500]

And on the final point, the regions will all get more money in the Premiership from the BT Sport deal, and in turn be in a better place to sign and keep better players. Another thing which you are against of course. For the regions it's a choice of either join the Premiership and survive or lose to the WRU and just die as any sort of competitive entity for good.

How do you figure that?

Does no WRU funding, no HEC money, no Pro12 deal really equate to more than the existing PRL deal divided up by another 3 or 4 entrants?


But yeah, right now, the WRU are working to run down the regions (either into the ground or to reduce their purchase cost).

I expect the WRU to buy the outstanding Dragons shares over the next year or two and then look to acquire one or more of the other regions.

 

[j'nuh]

Actually, the WRU were willing to centrally contract players (y'know, pay the weekly wages), as long as they were allowed control of the players.

The regions refused. Instead they want the WRU to give them money which will then be spent as the regions see fit. In an ideal world, that is the ideal solution. But, given the track record of the regions - its no wonder the WRU are thinking "f88k that"...

But there was no material benefit for the regions to accept central contracts. The WRU give £6.2m to the regions for player releases. They wanted to sink all of that money instead into central contracts. The regions don't benefit materially in any shape, but they would lose control over contract negotiations (eg length of contract), how the money is spent, and even player movement, since the contracts would then be held with the WRU. It's a borderline offensive offer for the WRU to make.

Here's a few facts:

- The regions haven't a clue about the competitions they'll be in next year. About 1/3 of the season, I believe, is yet to be accounted for. It is morally wrong, as a business, to enter into such uncertainty. If they agreed to the participation agreement, and matches could not be arranged to fill the gap, the regions would have to face mass redundancies to level the books. It would also weaken their squads tremendously. Instead, understandably, the regions want to try and find something to fill those gaps.

- The WRU isn't offering a better deal, in real terms, than that which exists. The regions need growth, or they face losing their best players, year-on-year, to the growing English/French teams. The WRU recorded pre-tax profits of only £2.2m for 2012-13. So they probably cannot offer a significantly better deal even if they tried, perhaps without redirecting resources from wherever they already spend the money. The WRU is aiming to pay off its debts by 2021, which is an admirable way to run a union admittedly. But the point is that the WRU cannot offer enough to properly finance the Welsh game. So there's a point where the WRU needs to let go of control.

The money already given by the WRU is actually not at all that much. The money given out to the regions consist of the television money that the regions earned themselves, and contract release money that the regions should be entitled to anyway. This is why the WRU doesn't want to lose control: the money they give out to the regions is money that the regions earned/are entitled to.

As for the regions' track records, well a lot of their significant decisions have been made by the WRU. The problem is that when the WRU makes the regions' decisions for them, such as which competitions to be in and so forth, the WRU is looking at how this will benefit the national team first and foremost. The regions need to be allowed to make their own decisions so that they can look primarily at how to grow their audiences/finances and hence be stable.

 

[psychic duck]

How do you figure that?

Does no WRU funding, no HEC money, no Pro12 deal really equate to more than the existing PRL deal divided up by another 3 or 4 entrants?


But yeah, right now, the WRU are working to run down the regions (either into the ground or to reduce their purchase cost).

I expect the WRU to buy the outstanding Dragons shares over the next year or two and then look to acquire one or more of the other regions.

BT are offering £16m to the regions to play. That's more than the WRU who give the regions £6m between them. Even with Heineken Cup (just over £1m per team) and RaboPro12 added on it's less than the Premiership offer. And with the current uncertainty over both those tournaments it would be remarkably braindead for the regions to take that. With the Premiership deal bringing in more and extremely likely to bring in more revenue from the fixtures as well and an extra million added to the salary cap, it really is quite simple to join the Premiership. The alternative is to play in a worse product for worse money and lose control of the players you have, the mass exodus would continue and I wouldn't be surprised if the 4 regions got cut down to 3 or possibly even 2.

But there was no material benefit for the regions to accept central contracts. The WRU give £6.2m to the regions for player releases. They wanted to sink all of that money instead into central contracts. The regions don't benefit materially in any shape, but they would lose control over contract negotiations (eg length of contract), how the money is spent, and even player movement, since the contracts would then be held with the WRU. It's a borderline offensive offer for the WRU to make.

Here's a few facts:

- The regions haven't a clue about the competitions they'll be in next year. About 1/3 of the season, I believe, is yet to be accounted for. It is morally wrong, as a business, to enter into such uncertainty. If they agreed to the participation agreement, and matches could not be arranged to fill the gap, the regions would have to face mass redundancies to level the books. It would also weaken their squads tremendously. Instead, understandably, the regions want to try and find something to fill those gaps.

- The WRU isn't offering a better deal, in real terms, than that which exists. The regions need growth, or they face losing their best players, year-on-year, to the growing English/French teams. The WRU recorded pre-tax profits of only £2.2m for 2012-13. So they probably cannot offer a significantly better deal even if they tried, perhaps without redirecting resources from wherever they already spend the money. The WRU is aiming to pay off its debts by 2021, which is an admirable way to run a union admittedly. But the point is that the WRU cannot offer enough to properly finance the Welsh game. So there's a point where the WRU needs to let go of control.

The money already given by the WRU is actually not at all that much. The money given out to the regions consist of the television money that the regions earned themselves, and contract release money that the regions should be entitled to anyway. This is why the WRU doesn't want to lose control: the money they give out to the regions is money that the regions earned/are entitled to.

As for the regions' track records, well a lot of their significant decisions have been made by the WRU. The problem is that when the WRU makes the regions' decisions for them, such as which competitions to be in and so forth, the WRU is looking at how this will benefit the national team first and foremost. The regions need to be allowed to make their own decisions so that they can look primarily at how to grow their audiences/finances and hence be stable.

Good post, j'nuh.

 

[Peat]

Unless I'm mistake, there's a court battle to be had before the regions can join an Anglo-Welsh league? That strikes me as just as uncertain. There's also the question of whether they'll still be wanted in the AP in five years time, or whether they'll be offered such a generous pot to do so - more uncertainty - and how well they cope with the WRU retaliation. I'm not saying the regions should have stayed, but to call this the only obvious thing to do seems a little strong.

Also the WRU may have recorded pre-tax profits of only GBP2.2m but when you consider a revenue of GBP61m, higher than a lot of other unions, one suspects a certain amount of jiggery-pokery with the figures and that, if the WRU were so inclined, there's probably a lot more money to be shared out. Ireland got GBP54m and with that money, they've centrally contracted virtually the entire Irish squad and are subsidising at least 15 foreign player contracts, I'm not sure whether Connacht's count.

 

[Rich Taff]

Ugh! Posts too long to read at this time of night.

Has anyone mentioned the interview during the Blues v Dragons game where they talked about the 'deadline to discuss participation' where the regions were told they weren't allowed to comment or somesuch.....I expect they have... I'm tired, going to sleep.

I need thread summary bullet points people! Bullet points!