2012 IRB Junior World Championship

[William18]

New Zealand squad is named:

New Zealand Under 20 squad
Forwards: Fraser Armstrong (Waikato), Hugh Blake (Otago), Nathan Harris (Bay of Plenty), Jake Heenan (Auckland), Joe Latta (Wellington), Christian Lloyd (Wellington), Taniela Manu (Canterbury), Rhys Marshall (Hawke's Bay), Glenn Preston (North Harbour), Tuki Raimona (Southland), Nick Ross (Canterbury), Eric Sione (Wellington), Jordan Taufua (Canterbury), Jimmy Tupou (Countries Manukau), Ofa Tuungafasi (Auckland).
Backs: Pita Ahki (North Harbour), Ambrose Curtis (Wellington), Jason Emery (Manawatu), Scott Eade (Southland), Bryn Hall (North Harbour), Marnus Hanley (Waikato), Milford Keresoma (Auckland), Jono Kitto (Canterbury), Martin McKenzie (Soutland), Opetera Peleseuma (Wellington), Matt Proctor (Wellington), Junior Vaa Tofa (Auckland), Ihaia West (Hawke's Bay).

No Perenara or Cane in there. Looks to be our weakest under 20's squad in many years.

 

[Feicarsinn]

New Zealand squad is named:

New Zealand Under 20 squad
Forwards: Fraser Armstrong (Waikato), Hugh Blake (Otago), Nathan Harris (Bay of Plenty), Jake Heenan (Auckland), Joe Latta (Wellington), Christian Lloyd (Wellington), Taniela Manu (Canterbury), Rhys Marshall (Hawke's Bay), Glenn Preston (North Harbour), Tuki Raimona (Southland), Nick Ross (Canterbury), Eric Sione (Wellington), Jordan Taufua (Canterbury), Jimmy Tupou (Countries Manukau), Ofa Tuungafasi (Auckland).
Backs: Pita Ahki (North Harbour), Ambrose Curtis (Wellington), Jason Emery (Manawatu), Scott Eade (Southland), Bryn Hall (North Harbour), Marnus Hanley (Waikato), Milford Keresoma (Auckland), Jono Kitto (Canterbury), Martin McKenzie (Soutland), Opetera Peleseuma (Wellington), Matt Proctor (Wellington), Junior Vaa Tofa (Auckland), Ihaia West (Hawke's Bay).

No Perenara or Cane in there. Looks to be our weakest under 20's squad in many years.

So only a 20 point win in the final then

Who should we be looking out for off this team?

 

[William18]

Haha, I don't think so. I saw that South African squad and it looks very good, that coupled with the fact that they are at home makes them deserving favourites.

I don't know much about them. I think Scott Eade is the only one to have played ITM Cup level. He played a few games for Southland and looks to be a solid first five. I have heard of a few of the Wellington boys in the team. Matt Proctor looks like a decent fullback and I know Ambrose Curtis is a winger. You probably know as much about the rest of them as I do.

 

[Feicarsinn]

South Africa are strong eh? Oh joy. They would have to be in our group.

From an Irish point of view I'm not expecting much out of this tournament. That's not to say that I don't think we have a good team, there's actually an awful lot of good players in there, but having South Africa and England in our pool isn't going to make things easy. We had a good 6 nations, finishing with 8 points, including an historic win away in France, but we did get a bit of a pasting in the grand slam decider against England. Here's the team I'd imagine will play the two big games:

15) Shane Layden
14) Conor Finn
13) Chris Farrell
12) JJ Hanrahan
11) Foster Horan
10) Paddy Jackson
9) Luke McGrath

8) Jack Conan
7) Aaron Conneely
6) Conor Gilsenan
5) Daniel Qualter
4) Iain Henderson
3) Tadgh Byrne (Might be a year too soon actually)
2) Niall Scannell
1) Des Merrey

Big things are expected from McGrath, Farrell and Hanrahan in the future and outhalf Paddy Jackson already has a good deal of first team experience up at Ulster having played the full 80 minutes in the Heineken Cup semi final (although some will still argue that Cathal Marsh is the better 10). Shane Layden will be the solution to Connacht's full back issue when Gavin Duffy decides to pack it in. In the forwards Iain Henderson is a good prospect at lock, Tadgh Byrne is being hotly touted as the long term replacement for Mike Ross at Leinster. Conor Gilsenan is also supposed to be pretty hot stuff. Unlike Irish under age teams in the past, these guys aren't as completely undersized compared to their rivals and there's a lot of experience in there too.

 

[welshglory]

I'm not expecting much from the Welsh boys. They look very lightweight in the forwards and i'm not impressed by our backs either.

 

[Feicarsinn]

I'm not expecting much from the Welsh boys. They look very lightweight in the forwards and i'm not impressed by our backs either.

Aye, the quality of the Welsh backs during the 6 nations was shocking. Their hands were by and large awful and they looked at bit clueless when they did manage to hold it.

Not having George North, Tom Prydie and Harry Robinson for the 6 nations didn't help mind.

 

[welshglory]

Yea true but we'd still get mullered in the forwards, so those guys wouldn't get the ball anyway!

 

[Draggs]

Yea true but we'd still get mullered in the forwards, so those guys wouldn't get the ball anyway!

I think we will go with a backline of: Jonathan Evans, Matthew Morgan, Iolo Evans/Tom Prydie, Cory Allen, Jack Dixon/Luke Williams, Harry Robinson, Ross Jones.
I would consider Owen Williams at 10/12 and Luke Morgan on one of the wings. I am not really sure about Iolo Evans. He is a big wing but not as lethal as Robinson, Morgan, et al. Midfield is debatable. Jack Dixon is just a nipper, but I like what I have seen so far.

 

[Peat]

Fortunately for NZ, I don't think this is the England team to do it. The pack is almost all a year young and there's a slight soft edge in places, the backline's never really got a chance to play together this year due to club duties, and George Ford will probably be with the senior squad. That said, you never know, if we can get everyone fit there is some serious talent there, and at least in Tom Heathcote we have about as good a deputy for Ford as possible.


Aaaand just to correct Feic, Tadgh Beirne is a lock. Tadgh Furlong is the prop he's thinking of - he was a year young last year and very impressive for it, if he's fit to go he will start at tighthead in any game Ireland cares about. Judging from the U20 6N, his propping partner in those matches will be Kyle McCall, not Merrey. Or he might have meant Edward Byrne, now I think of it, although I thought he's a loosehead. And is, as said, a year young. I wouldn't be surprised if Ireland send the Byrne brothers down a year young as back-up. Also, if Peter Nelson is back fit, which he is judging from Dungannon match reports, he will almost certainly start somewhere in the back three, with either him or Layden shifting to the wing.

Finally on the subject of Ireland, if Declan Kidney wasn't such an arch-conservative, and the IRFU too cheap to send out a big enough squad for mid-week games, it's quite possible Paddy Jackson would be in New Zealand and not South Africa. It's still not entirely inconceivable.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Should Paddy Jackson start the Heineken Cup final, I wouldn't bring him to the JWC. Underage rugby is about player development and playing in that competition would be a step down for Jackson. To my mind it would be better off developing Stuart Olding or Cathal Marsh in the junior tournament and perhaps bringing Jackson to train with the senior squad in New Zealand (he's behind Jonny Sexton, Ronan O'Gara, Ian Madigan and maybe Ian Keatley in my view).

 

[TRF_Olyy]

and George Ford will probably be with the senior squad.

I don't think so, the main squad already has Farrell, Hodgson and Flood, and Burns is likely to go as well - can't see 5 flyhalves touring.
I'd give Ford this JWC and then get him in the Saxons next 6N.
Heathcote's better than Ford anyway.

 

[welshglory]

I don't think so, the main squad already has Farrell, Hodgson and Flood, and Burns is likely to go as well - can't see 5 flyhalves touring.
I'd give Ford this JWC and then get him in the Saxons next 6N.
Heathcote's better than Ford anyway.

Ooh, very debatable that. I think Ford's got a lot more to his game than Heathcote.

 

[Peat]

Should Paddy Jackson start the Heineken Cup final, I wouldn't bring him to the JWC. Underage rugby is about player development and playing in that competition would be a step down for Jackson. To my mind it would be better off developing Stuart Olding or Cathal Marsh in the junior tournament and perhaps bringing Jackson to train with the senior squad in New Zealand (he's behind Jonny Sexton, Ronan O'Gara, Ian Madigan and maybe Ian Keatley in my view).

It's also a bit about winning, and Jackson would help towards that. There's also developing partnerships that might go on to play at full level - McGrath-Jackson-Hanrahan is a possible full international axis. He'd also develop his leadership skills further in SA, which he wouldn't in NZ.

And just because there's a strong argument for taking him to NZ, doesn't mean its going to happen with Mr Kidney...

I don't think so, the main squad already has Farrell, Hodgson and Flood, and Burns is likely to go as well - can't see 5 flyhalves touring.
I'd give Ford this JWC and then get him in the Saxons next 6N.
Heathcote's better than Ford anyway.

I would agree but Lancaster's already expressed an interest in taking Ford with the main squad. The papers are reporting that there is serious talk of him going in the England camp. This isn't my guess, it's more or less the entire media's 'guess'.

I haven't seen enough of Heathcote to argue fully on that, but from what I've seen I'd place Ford in front, and from what I've seen of Ford that's a huge f**king statement to make. You must think Heathcote is something really special.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Meh, maybe they're both of similar ability then. Ford is stupidly overrated. He's a very good flyhalf, don't get me wrong, but he's made out to be way better than he is.
People go on about the maturity he shows in his game, but at the end of the day that's the bare minimum you'd expect from a premiership level flyhalf- regardless of age (as age shouldn't really come in to it if he's playing in the prem, then he's deemed ready enough despite being 18/19).
His defence is very suspect as well.

 

[psychic duck]

Aye, the quality of the Welsh backs during the 6 nations was shocking. Their hands were by and large awful and they looked at bit clueless when they did manage to hold it.

Not having George North, Tom Prydie and Harry Robinson for the 6 nations didn't help mind.

U20's World XV

1. Steven Kitshoff
2. Christopher Tolofua
3.
4.
5.
6. Matt Kvesic
7. Sam Cane
8. Billy Vunipola
9. TJ Perenara
10. Johan Goosen
11.
12. Virimi Vakatawa
13. Elliot Daly
14. George North
15. Stuart Hogg

Meh, maybe they're both of similar ability then. Ford is stupidly overrated. He's a very good flyhalf, don't get me wrong, but he's made out to be way better than he is.

People go on about the maturity he shows in his game, but at the end of the day that's the bare minimum you'd expect from a premiership level flyhalf- regardless of age (as age shouldn't really come in to it if he's playing in the prem, then he's deemed ready enough despite being 18/19).
His defence is very suspect as well.

Ford is massively hyped, media building him up to knock him down no doubt

he's a kicking type of fly half right?

 

[ZeFrenchy]

I didn't see any of the 6N U20 games, but France seems to have a very powerful tight five. I know that Poirot, Tolofua and Taofifenua are doing pretty well in the Top 14, which is never easy for frontrowers, especially young ones like them. I'd definitely add Tolofua as the hooker for the world U20 XV.

 

[big ginger 8]

South Africa are strong eh? Oh joy. They would have to be in our group.

From an Irish point of view I'm not expecting much out of this tournament. That's not to say that I don't think we have a good team, there's actually an awful lot of good players in there, but having South Africa and England in our pool isn't going to make things easy. We had a good 6 nations, finishing with 8 points, including an historic win away in France, but we did get a bit of a pasting in the grand slam decider against England. Here's the team I'd imagine will play the two big games:

15) Shane Layden
14) Conor Finn
13) Chris Farrell
12) JJ Hanrahan
11) Foster Horan
10) Paddy Jackson
9) Luke McGrath

8) Jack Conan
7) Aaron Conneely
6) Conor Gilsenan
5) Daniel Qualter
4) Iain Henderson
3) Tadgh Byrne (Might be a year too soon actually)
2) Niall Scannell
1) Des Merrey

Big things are expected from McGrath, Farrell and Hanrahan in the future and outhalf Paddy Jackson already has a good deal of first team experience up at Ulster having played the full 80 minutes in the Heineken Cup semi final (although some will still argue that Cathal Marsh is the better 10). Shane Layden will be the solution to Connacht's full back issue when Gavin Duffy decides to pack it in. In the forwards Iain Henderson is a good prospect at lock, Tadgh Byrne is being hotly touted as the long term replacement for Mike Ross at Leinster. Conor Gilsenan is also supposed to be pretty hot stuff. Unlike Irish under age teams in the past, these guys aren't as completely undersized compared to their rivals and there's a lot of experience in there too.

Think you mean Ed Byrne and got a bit mixed up with Tadgh Furlong who's a likely captain. Could start Byrne at loosehead ahead of Merrey as he's got way more potential.

Defense in the backs will be the biggest problem for us IMO.

EDIT: Didn't realise Peat already said about Byrne.

 

[Peat]

Ford is massively hyped, media building him up to knock him down no doubt

he's a kicking type of fly half right?[/FONT]

Ford is massively hyped because of what he has achieved so far and the skills he has shown. This is nothing to do with the media. It's not the media who picked him for Tigers age 16, or started him in a LV final to celebrate his 19th birthday, or who have been consistently picking him at underage level two years young, or have been singled out for name-checking and promotion by the national coach. That's all the work of Richard Cockerill, Lancaster, and... uhm, I forget who. They didn't win the LV cup final for him either, or pick him for young IRB player of the year (I think) either. They've just picked up on it.

Ford looks an all round player. His kicking skills are the most hyped, both tactically and at goal, but he's got a sweet pass, plays intelligently on the gameline, and has occasionally shown some real pace. Not much in the way of a step shown yet, but you can work on that, and at barely 19 he's got plenty of time to work on that. He's also got plenty of time to work on his strength and defence, and has already made serious steps in that direction. He's no longer a weak link in the Tigers defence when they play him.

There is a reason that his full debut in an England shirt is considered a case of when, not if.

I also don't get why Olyy thinks that display at least Premiership standard levels of maturity, both in dealing with nerves and making decisions, when you're only 18, is something to mark him down on. Yes, its all something most Premiership fly-halves are meant to have. There's a reason most players that age aren't considered as Premiership fly-halves. There is something very special, particularly World Class, about him.

 

[Draggs]

I had completely forgotten that North still qualifies...
Incredible.

 

[Nicolaas]

johan goosen out for 4 months with a shoulder injury - so there goes our freakin' best player!