[2015 RWC] Pool C: New Zealand vs. Tonga (09/10/2015)

[Shaggy]

Naholo was our roll of the dice. He's still a great player and might do something come the knock out games if Savea or Skudder get an injury, but yeah, I think Charlie was the sane logical choice, but they chose to take a gamble and also make an example of Charlie, so here we are. If there's one position where you can take at least a punt, it's definitely wing. Asking a guy to be in form after breaking his leg is always a hard ask, especially on the biggest stage in rugby, in a team who was struggling for form and putting themselves under pressure.

I can't see a lot of point in articles such as this (other than to sell news papers of course); it's easy to say these things after the games have already been played ... maybe CR should have been saying them at the time the selection was made (he might of, of course) ... I also think that post RWC needs to be considered; I think Naholo, now that he has been secured, is going to be a great asset in the years to come, where as Piutau will be in Ireland.

 

[Mcfadden]

I advocated for Piutau's inclusion pretty hard before the World Cup started, and a lot of people challenged me on it. I also like the fact that he can cover fullback reasonably confidently as well. I understand that NZ rugby wasn't happy about him leaving at such a young age after we've invested so much in him, but on a WC year I don't believe we can be too petty about these things. But I know there are broader policy arguments about his selection, and I get that.

Okay, his Super Rugby form wasn't as great as Naholo's, but he's no slouch either. Every time I've seen him put on the black jersey in the last few years people always said "the more I see of this kid the more I like him." But hey, you win some you lose some. I was skeptical whether it was a wise move to include either of Naholo or Skudder with such little experience, but Skudder proved me very wrong - and sometimes you just never know; imagine if Naholo hadn't picked up that injury and didn't have so much pressure, he could have proven me wrong as well. The WC isn't over yet. Just because Waisake isn't locked into the starting 15 doesn't mean he hasn't got a very important role to play. Everyone does.

I agree with the sentiment that Shaggy spelled out. Who we have is who we have, and we've got to back them now, and I still think it'll be night and day between these scratchy pool play matches and the KO games in terms of performance.

 

[Kiwi_]

Yeah, what's done is done, just gotta get behind the guys now and give them our full support. Selection mistakes can be discussed after the tournament, I found there's no use getting caught up in hindsight or complaining/wasting energy until the final results are through and the coaching staff and players deserves full support and credit.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Piatau is running away after the RWC, Naholo is staying.
I like Piatau but i can see what Shag was thinking for the future.

 

[easy2288]

Looks like it's Joe Moody to replace Woodcock

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...ony-woodcock-in-all-blacks-at-rugby-world-cup

Tony Woodcock has been struggling in Super15 all season. I did not see him last a full game for the Blues. As expect he only manages to last in the first round.

 

[nickdnz]

It's funny - everyone was saying "we must have Naholo in there instead of Savea". Now Naholo shouldn't even have been selected.

If Naholo played like everyone knows he can then people would be stoked. As it is NMS has probably been one of the players of the tournament - so I'm not convinced Piutau would be able to match him at his best.

 

[Mcfadden]

That's just the gamble you take. Sometimes it comes off, sometimes it doesn't as I alluded to earlier. Skudder clearly did, and Naholo hasn't yet but could have and may still do. I had a few reasons for wanting Piutau that go a bit beyond "he done gud when I seen him plaY!!1" but just like Sopoaga and Laulala, yeah there will be unlucky people. Just have to move on.

 

[ABs2011]

I advocated for Piutau's inclusion pretty hard before the World Cup started, and a lot of people challenged me on it. I also like the fact that he can cover fullback reasonably confidently as well. I understand that NZ rugby wasn't happy about him leaving at such a young age after we've invested so much in him, but on a WC year I don't believe we can be too petty about these things. But I know there are broader policy arguments about his selection, and I get that.

Okay, his Super Rugby form wasn't as great as Naholo's, but he's no slouch either. Every time I've seen him put on the black jersey in the last few years people always said "the more I see of this kid the more I like him." But hey, you win some you lose some. I was skeptical whether it was a wise move to include either of Naholo or Skudder with such little experience, but Skudder proved me very wrong - and sometimes you just never know; imagine if Naholo hadn't picked up that injury and didn't have so much pressure, he could have proven me wrong as well. The WC isn't over yet. Just because Waisake isn't locked into the starting 15 doesn't mean he hasn't got a very important role to play. Everyone does.

I agree with the sentiment that Shaggy spelled out. Who we have is who we have, and we've got to back them now, and I still think it'll be night and day between these scratchy pool play matches and the KO games in terms of performance.

Just to clarify, it wasn't that Piutau left NZ rugby, it was the way he left. Everyone knows about that rightt? He had made an agreement in principle but in the days between said agreement and returning the signed contract he back flipped and did an overseas deal. He completely broke the trust of the NZRU and from that point on he had sealed his own fate re RWC2015 as far as I was concerned. A few comments I've read regarding Piutau and his non-selection don't seem to have grasped the seriousness of what he did or perhaps don't know about it at all....

 

[nzlizard]

I don't blame Piutau all the way though, every test he played he was awesome, yet Hansen continued to select Jane and play him on the wing, everyone else knew Jane was past it and not playing how he used too.

Yet we continued to pick old out of form players, had Hansen manned up and just played the form player this would never have happened, more Hansens/selectors fault than Piutau's imo.

I don't think we will ever know the truth and I certainly don't trust Hansen and that cockraoch Steve Tew to tell the truth.

 

[ABs2011]

I don't blame Piutau all the way though, every test he played he was awesome, yet Hansen continued to select Jane and play him on the wing, everyone else knew Jane was past it and not playing how he used too.

Yet we continued to pick old out of form players, had Hansen manned up and just played the form player this would never have happened, more Hansens/selectors fault than Piutau's imo.

I don't think we will ever know the truth and I certainly don't trust Hansen and that cockraoch Steve Tew to tell the truth.

As far as I am aware that is the truth though. After it was reported it was never disputed by anyone involved. Are you saying you don't believe he actually had agreed to a 2 yr extension and the NZRU are making things up? If that was the case don't u think Piutau would have said something?

 

[nzlizard]

I think that part is true, but what part are we missing and what are the time lines around events?

Like I said, I believe that the Hansen's selection policy played a part in his decision, as it must have with a few of the guys that are going overseas. Staying loyal to players is great, don't get me wrong but we all know that there comes a point when you have to make the hard calls and Hansen's era has not done that well.

 

[ABs2011]

I think that part is true, but what part are we missing and what are the time lines around events?

Like I said, I believe that the Hansen's selection policy played a part in his decision, as it must have with a few of the guys that are going overseas. Staying loyal to players is great, don't get me wrong but we all know that there comes a point when you have to make the hard calls and Hansen's era has not done that well.

the info is all in the public domain. Not sure what you think you might be missing??

im confused about what hard calls Hansen has made wrong? Piutau dug his own grave, so what else are u referring to? From where I sit Hansen (to date) has over seen one of the most successful regimes of all black rugby ever!

 

[Mcfadden]

There are two sides to every story. Just because someone could dispute things publicly doesn't mean they should. But whatever. I just felt for numerous reasons he would have fit into this environment pretty well. It's not like we haven't made huge exceptions for players before regarding all sorts of rules.

 

[ABs2011]

I really don't understand what u guys actually think happened with Piutau? Please share what u believe to be the other side.

 

[austingtir]

That's just the gamble you take. Sometimes it comes off, sometimes it doesn't as I alluded to earlier. Skudder clearly did, and Naholo hasn't yet but could have and may still do. I had a few reasons for wanting Piutau that go a bit beyond "he done gud when I seen him plaY!!1" but just like Sopoaga and Laulala, yeah there will be unlucky people. Just have to move on.

I still think Naholo's got a game left in him in this tournament. Chances of Hansen selecting him are low unless someone gets injured though. The look on Hansens face when he knocked it on in this game said it all really.

He's made mistakes against average opposition. With any luck he's got that out of his system.

As good as Nehe's been id be amazed if he keeps up his run all the way through. Of course I hope he does.


Piutau... Just who cares about Piutau what did he expect when he signs overseas at his age?? I still think Naholo was a better selection given the circumstances. NOW if Piutau had stayed then I might be thinking different. Other than the game in SA this year iv never been a big fan of Piutau so it makes little difference to me.

And I certainly dont believe for a second he'd be the difference between us winning and losing this cup. Hansens made selection errors in other areas that are far more concerning than wing imo.

 

[nickdnz]

The Piutau thing is pretty exhausting.

I don't believe Piutau's form has been so exceptional for the All Blacks that he would have earned a starting spot on the right wing (and yes he had a good game vs SA..). People saying he wasn't selected over Jane have a very shoddy memory - he wasn't selected largely over Ben Smith, who has been our right winger for the last two seasons. Whether Dagg should have been involved up until he was dropped is perhaps another question. Regardless Piutau hasn't been making an irrefutable case for selection over the last four years - he looked like a very solid bench option in my view.

All of that is beside the point. He signed a contract to become the highest played player in the Pro 12 - and he didn't inform management over his decision after they were under the assumption he was going to commit to NZ rugby over the next few years. Therefore they may as well go with other options who are enthusiastic about playing for the ABs.

NMS just got his second MOTM performance in this RWC, has scored six tries in his last five games. It's a bit of a non-issue. Naholo looks like he's a bit underdone/not quite recovered from injury. But if push comes to shove I can live with him as my right winger come a knock out match.

And I think people are placing waaaay too much in this RWC. The All Blacks are successful because we manage to retain most of our best players. We compromise that because every four years a RWC comes around - we may not find ourselves winning 90% of games in the four years in-between. I personally value that much more than who wins this tournament. Without meaning to be a dick - if Australia (as an example) win this RWC, and then go the next three years losing to us, the ***le of World Champions begins to feel ironic (it certainly did in League for me).

 

[Mcfadden]

Just to be clear, I don't exactly think the difference between winning or losing the World Cup is Charles Piutau. And I fully agree that he hasn't been the form winger. I don't think I've ever claimed that.

Not the most powerful. Not the fastest. But he's safe. He's reliable when playing. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't remember him coiling into a shell or spoiling opportunities whenever he starred in tests. The fact he can cover fullback just adds to his usefulness. Personally I believe you need to look at things like experience, versatility, how players react to certain environments. I know people want the X-factor guys in there, but I guess I have a different philosophy on selection. I think he could compliment Skudder's blockbuster form on the other wing quite well (easy to say with hindsight of course.)

People do have double standards though. Sopoaga is apparently in amazing form - yet in his last test Piutau made more meters than Aaron Smith, Sopoaga, Ma'a Nonu and Conrad Smith combined. He was a better tackler than Dagg, Ben Smith and Nonu. He beat the most defenders. The list goes on, and whenever I've seen him a black jersey even before that, he makes a fair bit of ground. He had about the say amount of carries as Savea and Ben Smith last year and certainly did more with his opportunities. No biggy though. As I said, I don't think he'll be the difference between winning or losing the Cup, I'm just stating my opinion.

I don't think anything majorly conspiratorial has happened with his signing, to answer an earlier question. But you haven't heard his version is the point I'm making. Who told you he didn't communicate? I think Hansen said he read it in the paper. But he may well have, maybe not at the right time or to the right person. Again, just because you can speak up doesn't mean you should. Some people are bound by contract what they can talk about. Just worth considering before some people get self righteous about the issue, that's all.

 

[Alex Anghel]

And the dices have been rolled now...COME ON YOU, ALL BLACKS, crush the French in Cardiff!

 

[ABs2011]

The Piutau thing is pretty exhausting.

I don't believe Piutau's form has been so exceptional for the All Blacks that he would have earned a starting spot on the right wing (and yes he had a good game vs SA..). People saying he wasn't selected over Jane have a very shoddy memory - he wasn't selected largely over Ben Smith, who has been our right winger for the last two seasons. Whether Dagg should have been involved up until he was dropped is perhaps another question. Regardless Piutau hasn't been making an irrefutable case for selection over the last four years - he looked like a very solid bench option in my view.

All of that is beside the point. He signed a contract to become the highest played player in the Pro 12 - and he didn't inform management over his decision after they were under the assumption he was going to commit to NZ rugby over the next few years. Therefore they may as well go with other options who are enthusiastic about playing for the ABs.

NMS just got his second MOTM performance in this RWC, has scored six tries in his last five games. It's a bit of a non-issue. Naholo looks like he's a bit underdone/not quite recovered from injury. But if push comes to shove I can live with him as my right winger come a knock out match.

And I think people are placing waaaay too much in this RWC. The All Blacks are successful because we manage to retain most of our best players. We compromise that because every four years a RWC comes around - we may not find ourselves winning 90% of games in the four years in-between. I personally value that much more than who wins this tournament. Without meaning to be a dick - if Australia (as an example) win this RWC, and then go the next three years losing to us, the ***le of World Champions begins to feel ironic (it certainly did in League for me).

Finally! Someone who actually knows what went on with Piutau. The only bit that I would add, which helps to understand why the ABs were so ****** at him, was that it wasnt just the ABs assuming he was going to signed, he had in fact "agreed in principle" to a 2-year extension.

Just to be clear, I don't exactly think the difference between winning or losing the World Cup is Charles Piutau. And I fully agree that he hasn't been the form winger. I don't think I've ever claimed that.

Not the most powerful. Not the fastest. But he's safe. He's reliable when playing. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't remember him coiling into a shell or spoiling opportunities whenever he starred in tests. The fact he can cover fullback just adds to his usefulness. Personally I believe you need to look at things like experience, versatility, how players react to certain environments. I know people want the X-factor guys in there, but I guess I have a different philosophy on selection. I think he could compliment Skudder's blockbuster form on the other wing quite well (easy to say with hindsight of course.)

People do have double standards though. Sopoaga is apparently in amazing form - yet in his last test Piutau made more meters than Aaron Smith, Sopoaga, Ma'a Nonu and Conrad Smith combined. He was a better tackler than Dagg, Ben Smith and Nonu. He beat the most defenders. The list goes on, and whenever I've seen him a black jersey even before that, he makes a fair bit of ground. He had about the say amount of carries as Savea and Ben Smith last year and certainly did more with his opportunities. No biggy though. As I said, I don't think he'll be the difference between winning or losing the Cup, I'm just stating my opinion.

I don't think anything majorly conspiratorial has happened with his signing, to answer an earlier question. But you haven't heard his version is the point I'm making. Who told you he didn't communicate? I think Hansen said he read it in the paper. But he may well have, maybe not at the right time or to the right person. Again, just because you can speak up doesn't mean you should. Some people are bound by contract what they can talk about. Just worth considering before some people get self righteous about the issue, that's all.

Dude, I'm not sure what more to say. The facts are all out there if you want to understand what happen. I can assure you it will help you to understand why Piutau isnt in the AB 31. I have to say, it does seem like you have your blinkers on with this one though. By the way Charles did speak after he signed - so that is out there too if you want to hear his story.

Anyway I guess it is largely irrelevant cause he aint at hte RWC. I continue to find it odd that some people are so enamoured with talking about players that arent actually at the RWC. Seiously what is the point?

 

[Mcfadden]

I wasn't really going to bring him up at all, I just have a difference of opinion and as this is a rugby forum where people discuss opinions, I thought it might be appropriate to yknow...say something. It isn't really having my blinkers on at all. I said earlier there are broader policy arguments that go beyond form. No need to get upset mate. It's not like I'm anti Naholo anyway. He's going to be great, I have no doubts there. What's "out there" is the stuff opted to be put there in the media domain. Honestly are we that naive?