[2015 RWC] Pool C: New Zealand vs. Tonga (09/10/2015)

[TRF_heineken]

St James Park, Newcastle upon Tyne (09/10/2015,20:00)
Pool C, Round 4
Referee: John Lacey

 

[Mcfadden]

In terms of what I expect to see in the selections, I'm guessing Julian Savea and Sam Whitelock will be rested? (or benched at the very least). Kaino isn't too far behind Whitelock on the number of minutes played, so maybe we'll see him sit out. But I suspect they'll want to retain the bulk of our key players to build on familiarity, confidence and cohesion. I'm not sure if Crockett will get another start, but I'd like him to.

1) Wyatt Crockett
2) Dane Coles
3) Owen Franks
4) Luke Romano
5) Brodie Retallick
6) Victor Vito
7) Ricchie McCaw
8) Kerean Read

9) Aaron Smith
10) Dan Carter
11) Waisake Naholo
12) Ma'a Nonu
13) Conrad Smith
14) Nehe Milner-Skudder
15) Ben Smith

Every game it has felt like we've said "we'll be better this time", but I think we might be if we pick a strong side. Tonga, imo, won't play the same style of rugby as Georgia and Namibia. They should play a style that we're more familiar with and can flow with more easily. As good as those other teams were, and their defensive efforts particularly should be applauded, there was still a fair bit of slowing of the game down on their part. Tonga are obviously known for their attacking flair and probably favor open play a bit more than the tight stuff. The game should open up a bit, and I think Romano and Vito might be good options for this match. Two players who love to get their mits on the ball and go flat knacker - even if Romano does go in too upright.

Key think is the backline gels a little better. Passes weren't sticking against Georgia, we completed a lot of opportunities obviously but we also butchered a fair few. I don't want them to put 5000 points on Tonga. I just want sensible play, kick the ball to land not to hand, catch the passes, run your lines correctly. If Tonga can defend that, fair play, but we won't find out unless we actually get those things right.

Carter needs to be better, sure. Taking on the line and goal kicking needs to improve. But he's not the only one. Last week I stressed how it's important we click as a collective. At times people weren't reading set backlines very well last week - so that kind of stuff obviously isn't Carters fault.

 

[chikwa chibwe]

All Blacks will win easily . The question is how will they perform? . I am not buying into Hansens's excuses that they are holding back .The players need to feel the pressure to perform not Just for their country but also for their places . Kieran Read is not playing to his potential . He is a key player who at his best is amongst the best no 8 in the world. Jerome Kaino has been very disappointing. As I said before he rarely breaks the gain line . His work at the breakdown is not noticeable . We saw how effective hooper and Pocock were. Therefore the argument that he does the unseen stuff should not be raised in his defence. Patience with Carter because of past form may cost the side the World Cup. The next best replacement is Lima Sapoaga who has been left behind because of Colin slade 's versatility ! How is his versatility going to help the backs begin to fire?! Milner skudder & Beauden barret can cover full back !!!
The scrum is not stable even with our put ins! This frankly has been an issue for a while . The so called third tier teams have managed to slow the ball down at the break downs. This is not all down to lax refereeing . The breakdown is a big issue which is not being properly addressed. The tactic of using Brodie retallick has become predictable and thus ineffective ! Improvements needed by both the players and the coaching staff!!

 

[ABs2011]

Injury update:
All the players previously under injury clouds (Slade, Barrett, Messam, and Nonu) trained in full yesterday while Faumuina (hamstring) SBW (?) and Naholo (bruised leg) all either sat out or were restricted.

With that in mind, and given the ABs have said they will play their full team, one would assume we will see the same side that ran out against Georgia with perhaps a chance for Messam to give Kaino a rest, and you'd have to think Romano will get a start for Whitlock who along with Savea is the only player to have started all 3 games so far. Nonu in for SBW if his injury is completely cleared up, and maybe NMS in for Naholo if Naholo's bruise is worse than they are letting on. I would also expect them to revert back to the incumbents at prop as well so Woodcock and Franks in for Faumuina and Crockett.

Much the same as you @Mcfadden although I think the continue with Savea as I believe the plan is just to get him to continue on for the rest of the RWC, improving each game as he has definitely been doing thus far. To be honest I have no idea what they will do at #6, it could genuinely go either of 3 ways although Messam surely needs to get some time (either starting of off the bench), and props is a toss up but unless the AB selectors could isolate the front row issues to one or other of the strategic props from Georgia I reckon they are both gone.

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All Blacks will win easily . The question is how will they perform? . I am not buying into Hansens's excuses that they are holding back .The players need to feel the pressure to perform not Just for their country but also for their places . Kieran Read is not playing to his potential . He is a key player who at his best is amongst the best no 8 in the world. Jerome Kaino has been very disappointing. As I said before he rarely breaks the gain line . His work at the breakdown is not noticeable . We saw how effective hooper and Pocock were. Therefore the argument that he does the unseen stuff should not be raised in his defence. Patience with Carter because of past form may cost the side the World Cup. The next best replacement is Lima Sapoaga who has been left behind because of Colin slade 's versatility ! How is his versatility going to help the backs begin to fire?! Milner skudder & Beauden barret can cover full back !!!
The scrum is not stable even with our put ins! This frankly has been an issue for a while . The so called third tier teams have managed to slow the ball down at the break downs. This is not all down to lax refereeing . The breakdown is a big issue which is not being properly addressed. The tactic of using Brodie retallick has become predictable and thus ineffective ! Improvements needed by both the players and the coaching staff!!

You personally might not be buying into that, but its pretty clear they are not playing their normal game, so there is some truth to it without a shadow of a doubt. Eg complete lack of in play kicking is something you surely can't look past. Clearly they are not showing their hand when it comes to set play moves either.

That being said, this doesn't mean I am not starting to get worried. This game vs Tonga must show marked improvement. I'm with you on several things you mentioned. The scrum needs to improve - but as I have said, when its Woodcock and Franks it is generally pretty good. The main thing is handling and cohesiveness. If this has not been worked on for the last week, and if it does not improve a lot vs Tonga they are not on track IMO. Not worried about Carter!

 

[Five Meters Out]

Whether or not the AB's are playing their normal game is not the primary concern. That concern would have to be Daniel Carters form. His kicking in particular. He needs this to go well v Tonga, both for his own and all the AB supporters confidence.

 

[Kiwi_]

I don't even know about this game, with what Hansens been saying and the players elusive relaxed press conferences it's really hard to get a genuine read on what's going on and we probably won't know until the quarter finals or even the semi-finals if we get there. Also the Tongans aren't good enough to give us a real test either, let's be honest.

Let's avoid injuries as well, I don't think the Tongans are as physical as they used to be, but still, let's not put out bodies on the line for the cause.

 

[ABs2011]

Whether or not the AB's are playing their normal game is not the primary concern. That concern would have to be Daniel Carters form. His kicking in particular. He needs this to go well v Tonga, both for his own and all the AB supporters confidence.

I agree with the first part for sure. It's clear they are not playing their normal game but that is only interesting to the extent that artificially simulating in-game situations is something that hasn't been done to this extent (to the best of my knowledge) and that Hansen and co. will absolutely be roasted on this should the ABs achieve anything less than a final berth.

On the second point I disagree completely. For me the biggest concern is simply that the ABs are not catching and passing with enough accuracy. This is all about combination and execution and they need to by in large get this right vs./ Tonga. Hansen says they are not concerned though, so for now given his coaching record I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt here. The second concern I have is whether or not we can compete well enough at the breakdown if our loose forward combination is Kaino, McCaw, Read? We were shown up big time vs OZ earlier this year and it is clear we do not have the pace that other teams have. They obviously have strategies they can use to combat this and probably it is simply a matter of committing one more player to the breakdown. More players to the breakdown means less players in the D line though so its a tradeoff that we will have to get right.

As for Carter, I honestly think people just expect so much from him and when he doesn't perform at his best week in week out people slate him. It's an easy position to be critical of as well. I can tell you though, DC is certainly not my main concern, in fact he would be well down my list. He is definitely the best 10 we have, has an outstanding win-loss record over his entire career when he starts at 10, and his experience can not be bought. He is making mistake, no doubt about it, but he is another player I think is coming into form and will do the job when the time comes! I know many disagree, but that's my opinion anyway.

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I don't even know about this game, with what Hansens been saying and the players elusive relaxed press conferences it's really hard to get a genuine read on what's going on and we probably won't know until the quarter finals or even the semi-finals if we get there. Also the Tongans aren't good enough to give us a real test either, let's be honest.

Let's avoid injuries as well, I don't think the Tongans are as physical as they used to be, but still, let's not put out bodies on the line for the cause.

I'd agree with that if it looked like our combinations were all clicking, but they are far from it. We need to play our best team into form. How would you feel if we had a QF against France or Ireland and the last time the ABs had played together was that woeful Georgian performance. If we don't put our best team out against Tonga I will be very very concerned!

 

[Kiwi_]

Not saying don't play our best team, just don't over extend themselves, more or less talking to Richie and Retallick.

On the Slade thing from the other thread. I'm not against his selection because of his utility role, I'm slightly against his selection because ironically he's meant to be the injury cover himself incase we do suffer injuries. He ends up being the one that needs covered, therefore exposing our better players. If he's back fit, then what ever, but I find that hard to believe, he's had injuries and ****les for a large part of his career and he had problems at the start of September, I now believe we are carrying him, while the inform 10 in the world is sitting at home. We made a mistake here, no point trying to justify it or think otherwise, it's a mistake.

 

[ABs2011]

Not saying don't play our best team, just don't over extend themselves, more or less talking to Richie and Retallick.

On the Slade thing from the other thread. I'm not against his selection because of his utility role, I'm slightly against his selection because ironically he's meant to be the injury cover himself incase we do suffer injuries. He ends up being the one that needs covered, therefore exposing our better players. If he's back fit, then what ever, but I find that hard to believe, he's had injuries and ****les all for a large part of his career and he had problems at the start of September, I now believe we are carrying him, while the inform 10 in the world is sitting at home. We made a mistake here, no point trying to justify it or think otherwise, it's a mistake.

Haha, in form 10 in the world?? Jeepers mate, you are stretching that a bit aren't ya? He has only had 1 test cap!! Anyway, I don't want to get into a Sopoaga debate AGAIN! you can't help yourself can you No need to justify it buy the way - the selectors did that weeks ago.

The pertinent discussion, in this case, should be around Slade and whether or not he can do the job asked of him. With that in mind he trained in full this week after Hansen saying he could have played against Georgia if needed, so its all precautionary as far as I can tell. I have no reason to think Hansen is lying about that, nor should you tbh!

I'm not sure Richie and Retallick know any other way tbh! Play their best team, go hard, and get things right for the QF, that's what I want to see. I'd be happy if they gave Whitelock a rest though! I wanna see Savea and DC in particular get more minutes under their belt!

 

[Kiwi_]

Haha, in form 10 in the world?? Jeepers mate, you are stretching that a bit aren't ya? He has only had 1 test cap!! Anyway, I don't want to get into a Sopoaga debate AGAIN! you can't help yourself can you No need to justify it buy the way - the selectors did that weeks ago.

The pertinent discussion, in this case, should be around Slade and whether or not he can do the job asked of him. With that in mind he trained in full this week after Hansen saying he could have played against Georgia if needed, so its all precautionary as far as I can tell. I have no reason to think Hansen is lying about that, nor should you tbh!

I'm not sure Richie and Retallick know any other way tbh! Play their best team, go hard, and get things right for the QF, that's what I want to see. I'd be happy if they gave Whitelock a rest though! I wanna see Savea and DC in particular get more minutes under their belt!

Slade sounds like he's a jumping jack away from snapping an ACL

 

[Larksea]

Slade sounds like he's a jumping jack away from snapping an ACL

rubish, the injury situation is being overblown. if anything we could criticize the selectors for overprotecting the players. Barrett, slade and Messam would have all been available for selection if we were in the business end of the tournament.

IMO I think the biggest injury issue is TKB, see how much strapping he had on his leg against Georgia? And he was seriously down on pace to me he looks 60-70% on that leg.

 

[nzlizard]

With the DC thing, I feel a large part of it is we have had Cruden as our first choice for a few years now and the backline plays around his style, which is more running based and hitting the ball going forward, DC doesn't play like this anymore so the rest need to adjust a little this and this could be the cause of a few issues.

If you look at the Eden park test you did see DC take on the line a little, giving Nonu going forward ball when he received the pass.

The more you think about it we needed Sopoaga to be there from the 1st test this year, would have given him 5-6 games to get used to it, as Sopoaga plays more like Cruden does.

Starting props for Tonga should be Crockett and Franks.

Kaino and Whitelock need a rest in the forwards but now is the wrong time to be resting the 1st choice players, we have to though I feel.

If Nahalo is fit I reckon we see him and NMS start on the wings and Savea get a rest.

 

[Mcfadden]

With the DC thing, I feel a large part of it is we have had Cruden as our first choice for a few years now and the backline plays around his style, which is more running based and hitting the ball going forward, DC doesn't play like this anymore so the rest need to adjust a little this and this could be the cause of a few issues.

If you look at the Eden park test you did see DC take on the line a little, giving Nonu going forward ball when he received the pass.

The more you think about it we needed Sopoaga to be there from the 1st test this year, would have given him 5-6 games to get used to it, as Sopoaga plays more like Cruden does.

Starting props for Tonga should be Crockett and Franks.

Kaino and Whitelock need a rest in the forwards but now is the wrong time to be resting the 1st choice players, we have to though I feel.

If Nahalo is fit I reckon we see him and NMS start on the wings and Savea get a rest.

I will have to look at the passing stats, but yes it does feel like Carter shovels the ball on. I still maintain his overall direction, particularly with the boot, is better than a couple of his alternatives - tactical kicks I mean. I partly blame his confidence with not taking on the line on Matson, Mauger and Blackadder. They've played him at 12 way too much and created a catch-pass-and repeat mentality. I think it's a very harmful environment.

 

[Shaggy]

My main concern is definitely the execution of basic skills, such as catching and passing, timing of running on to passes etc. I don't want or need to see the ABs tip their hand with regard to flashy play or planned moves; Hansen and co have it right to save those for the business end of the tournament IMO.

Messam should definitely get game time either starting or off the bench in this match, otherwise it's been a waste of time taking him. The same applies to Slade ( probably off the bench though).

 

[Kiwi_]

Well it sounds like Naholo might be injured.

"All Blacks coaches are watching Waisake Naholo to determine if he will be available to play against Tonga this weekend. ‪#‎RWC2015‬"

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NMS and Savea are under suspicion as well, we might have a winger crisis this RWC instead of a first 5 crisis, sounds all pretty minor though, fingers crossed.

 

[nickdnz]

Fekitoa to play wing? Would make sense.

 

[ABs2011]

Well it sounds like Naholo might be injured.

"All Blacks coaches are watching Waisake Naholo to determine if he will be available to play against Tonga this weekend. ‪#‎RWC2015‬"

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NMS and Savea are under suspicion as well, we might have a winger crisis this RWC instead of a first 5 crisis, sounds all pretty minor though, fingers crossed.

Interesting! Where did you hear/read that? Cause the quote I read from Foster (I think) implied Naholo was likely to be good to go, and no mention of the other two...

 

[Kiwi_]

Interesting! Where did you hear/read that? Cause the quote I read from Foster (I think) implied Naholo was likely to be good to go, and no mention of the other two...

Just on the main news mate, also various other mainstream news outlets were reporting it. They weren't at training etc.

 

[ABs2011]

Just on the main news mate, also various other mainstream news outlets were reporting it. They weren't at training etc.

You sure? do you have a link for the NMS / Savea updates? All I've seen are the three who sat out training that I posted earlier today, nothing about those other two.

 

[81st_Minute]

Well it sounds like Naholo might be injured.

"All Blacks coaches are watching Waisake Naholo to determine if he will be available to play against Tonga this weekend. ‪#‎RWC2015‬"

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NMS and Savea are under suspicion as well, we might have a winger crisis this RWC instead of a first 5 crisis, sounds all pretty minor though, fingers crossed.

All games man. NZ are playing many games right now.