[2015 RWC] Pool C: New Zealand vs. Namibia (24/09/2015)

[Shaggy]

I think the point is that Barrett will be the guy coming off the bench in the big games (barring injury of course), therefore he will get the in-game kicking duties when he is on the pitch, not Slade. I agree with an earlier poster as well. Sade can do the job at 15, but he is not a natural full-back. Barrett is much more adept at playing that position, not to mention he is a much more likely to break a game. His pace is sublime.

Could be wrong but I think its a lock to say that the ABs bench will be made up of TKB/TJP, SBW, & Barrett.

I wasn't convinced that Barrett will be the bench cover before this match, and i'm even less convinced now that I've seen the match; I think they'll probably give Slade an opportunity in some shape or form, against Georgia, and if he proves more reliable with the boot, he'll leap frog Barrett in the pecking order ... I love Barrett's running game, but in the finals, you've got to nail those shots at goal.

A few positives for me in the game; Yes Vito and SBW had good games, I was pleased NMS seemed to be able to put behind him that dropped pass against Argentina. I know Savea's game was far from perfect, but at least he scored a couple of tries, and considering he hasn't scored one for a while, that will do is confidence a lot of good.

 

[Peat]

Please keep things respectful.

 

[Dirty Ape]

Haven't seen this option discussed anywhere but a promising alternative to what we have now might be to have the refs make all decisions on field to the best of their ability (in consultation with touchies if necessary) and then the team captains have a number of reviews available where a decision can be reviewed and possibly overuled by the TMO.

This kind of process works very well in tennis, less well in cricket, but might potentially give us a better balance between game flow, accuracy in decisions, and general entertainment. Surely this would speed up the game, put the emphasis on refs to be decisive and accurate, and add some drama when the TMO is called on.

I was at the game last night and had a great time, but that was mostly because of the rowdy company I keep, the game itself died a death in that 2nd half.

 

[ABs2011]

I wasn't convinced that Barrett will be the bench cover before this match, and i'm even less convinced now that I've seen the match; I think they'll probably give Slade an opportunity in some shape or form, against Georgia, and if he proves more reliable with the boot, he'll leap frog Barrett in the pecking order ... I love Barrett's running game, but in the finals, you've got to nail those shots at goal.

A few positives for me in the game; Yes Vito and SBW had good games, I was pleased NMS seemed to be able to put behind him that dropped pass against Argentina. I know Savea's game was far from perfect, but at least he scored a couple of tries, and considering he hasn't scored one for a while, that will do is confidence a lot of good.

Hey man, you of course may well be right, although to dat Slade has generally only been used due to injury and I'm not sure that will have changed. 2 quick points though, 1) I believe what the ABs are hoping for is the form Barrett had when he came on in the famous SA game a while back. He is not that far over injuries so I believe they think they still have a bit of time to get him there and that one run v Namibia was a good sign (of his pace returning I mean) 2) in terms of goal kicking, it may well be the case that Barrett comes on for B Smith, or one of the wingers, and so he won't have to kick in the big games. I agree though Slades kicking is superior and is certainly an advantage for him.

I personally just don't see Slade as the sort of guy the ABs can bring on if they are behind to spark things up and create something. He is really solid, a very good player, but doesn't have the impact that Barrett does. Time will tell, its just nice we have 2 good options I guess

 

[Kiwi_]

I don't think we look like the best side at all at the RWC. We haven't looked the best side all year since kick off in Apia, Samoa. There are some players who just shouldn't be playing or be there, due to age and form and have dropped their standards and lost their elite edge considerably, the only games I can say we have looked for were the Argentina game in Christchurch and the Australian game in Auckland, both games where the opposition was not prepared or playing a 2nd string side. Fortunately we have the best bench in the world and that works in our favour, but he needs to get harder about a few players and I suspect he will.

 

[ABs2011]

I don't think we look like the best side at all at the RWC. We haven't looked the best side all year since kick off in Apia, Samoa. There are some players who just shouldn't be playing or be there, due to age and form and have dropped their standards and lost their elite edge considerably, the only games I can say we have looked for were the Argentina game in Christchurch and the Australian game in Auckland, both games where the opposition was not prepared or playing a 2nd string side. Fortunately we have the best bench in the world and that works in our favour, but he needs to get harder about a few players and I suspect he will.

I've heard several people mention similar things, but seriously, how on earth can you compare all the teams based on what we've seen already, and even if you could find a way to work that out, does it really matter at this stage?
IMO, we won't start seeing anything truly meaningful until tonight lots of games where we will get a sense of 1) who's better Eng v Wales (and potentially see who gets knocked out of the cup), and 2) Samoa SA (same thing). But even then, I don't think its enough to start comparing those sides to the likes of the ABs, OZ, Ire etc.

As we have seen time and time again at RWCs the tournament basically starts at the knock-outs. Anything earlier than that largely counts for nothing. My biggest concern for any team at this stage, other than making sure they get through to the knock-outs, is injuries. On that count NZ looking as good as could be hoped for.

 

[Mcfadden]

The other thing is, teams just aren't as easy to beat as they were when I first started watching rugby, so credit has to go to them. Argentina are no longer easy beats - they can more or less tip anyone up on their day. Australia have issues, but they certainly aren't in the level of utter mess that they were a few years ago. We struggled against SA in the Republic, but that's always a pretty tough trip (though we were pretty poor in the tackling it must be said). Those two subtle changes to the team I mentioned on the other page won't magically make us pure of the issues we've seen, but they'll help in my view. Outside of that, we'll just have to hope the boys are waiting to put the foot truly down come quarter finals time onwards. Not gonna lie, I'm nervous of course, but I have faith.

 

[Kiwi_]

You can look at it like you look at anything, it doesn't just have to be isolated to the RWC, just because it's the RWC doesn't dramatically change anyway you look at a team. The starting front row isn't good enough, that's pretty obvious, we can make it good enough with the right changes, but I guess he wants to have the best bench in the world and thinks that's what wins games, which is working for us. But we don't have the best starting team at the RWC.

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The other thing is, teams just aren't as easy to beat as they were when I first started watching rugby, so credit has to go to them. Argentina are no longer easy beats - they can more or less tip anyone up on their day. Australia have issues, but they certainly aren't in the level of utter mess that they were a few years ago. We struggled against SA in the Republic, but that's always a pretty tough trip (though we were pretty poor in the tackling it must be said). Those two subtle changes to the team I mentioned on the other page won't magically make us pure of the issues we've seen, but they'll help in my view. Outside of that, we'll just have to hope the boys are waiting to put the foot truly down come quarter finals time onwards. Not gonna lie, I'm nervous of course, but I have faith.

Argentina have always worn that tag "tough to beat", never once in my living memory, 25 years have they been labeled easy beats, maybe a few times when they came out here in the early 2000's, but remember they nearly bet us in Argentina that same year.

 

[austingtir]

Im not reading a huge amount into NZ's pool games. Other than Argentina nobody poses a threat they were always going to be treating these games almost like preseason matches at the start of the year.

What I do have an issue with is the clear fact we are carrying a few to many out of form or past it players. We are most likely going to end up changing a couple of these guys out come the semi's when the guys selected (we all know who they are) after they again fail to impress in the quarters. IMO thats just to late.

If we make it to the final I feel we are almost going to put ourselves in a a similar position as last time with a number of changes out of necessity that should of been made in earlier matches. And I dont think we can win like that this time.

 

[ABs2011]

You can look at it like you look at anything, it doesn't just have to be isolated to the RWC, just because it's the RWC doesn't dramatically change anyway you look at a team. The starting front row isn't good enough, that's pretty obvious, we can make it good enough with the right changes, but I guess he wants to have the best bench in the world and thinks that's what wins games, which is working for us. But we don't have the best starting team at the RWC.

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Argentina have always worn that tag "tough to beat", never once in my living memory, 25 years have they been labeled easy beats, maybe a few times when they came out here in the early 2000's, but remember they nearly bet us in Argentina that same year.

I don't know man, I reckon the Hansen era has lifted our expectations of the AB team to a level never seen before. I mean, whats our record over the last couple seasons? It has to be up there or better than any other 2-year period in AB history. I get what you are saying, and perhaps the ABs have not looked great at times (OZ, Samoa, SA, Arg, etc etc), BUT, I truly believe they have largely been just doing what ever it takes to win over the last few games. I don't think they are foxing, I just don't think they have really put their foot down. They have made heaps of changes to their team game in game out, there are guys getting over injuries, and I don't think they have shown their full hand in terms of strategy etc (in fact it would be disappointing if they had).

Does this mean we WILL win the RWC? Of course not, its a tough comp, with heaps of teams that can contend. But the point I;m trying to make is that I am not concerned about how this team is tracking at this stage and am not reading to much into performances yet.

I will however be concerned if we do not start to field our best team, or close to it, from this point on. They need more time to get the combinations right IMO, particularly the 8,9 10 combo as well as DCs combos with the backs.

As for Argentina not being easy beats? You are 25 right? So that explains it. Cause the 80s 90s and even early 2000s Argentina were an easy beat for much of that time. They have improved out of site in the last 15 years or so.

I was at the game at Athletic park back in 97 where we won 93-8. Some of the best running rugby I've ever seen.

 

[Kiwi_]

In 2001 we drew with them in the last minute.

Well it's easy to dismiss and excuse the Ab's performances this year. But that's up to you I guess. I'm managing my expectations and realities of some players in my own way and I feel it's a bit more in touch with the current squad quality than a lot of AB supporters who think all is well and we will out of nowhere put the foot down. I'm sure they wanted to play better than what they did against Argentina and Namibia (regardless of the 13 changes). For me the backline wasn't clicking, Dan wasn't sharp (good kicking) and some of our forwards were laborious around the park. This wasn't the first time we had seen this performance this year from an All Black team. That's where the concern is coming from.

Is that going to disappear overnight and we're going to suddenly 'put the foot down' and get rid of this? Doubt it. Fortunately the way we have been combating this is the 2nd half is with the right changes. One concern I really have is someone truly competent to come on and replace Dan if he's having a bad day at the office. I don't just mean his running game, but his kicking game (which Barrett isn't good enough IMO), Sopoaga left at home, he should be there as an option. I'm going to the Otago vs Southland game today and look forward to watching him, I'd just rather at this stage be watching him on the TV, in England.

I still think we will win games through our bench, but we're making things hard for ourselves when if we just stopped with a few habitual selections could make things a lot easier.

 

[smartcooky]

I don't have to AGREE with them (i.e: saying one team is offside when in my view they aren't) but as I said, they should be coherent. He didn't know what he was doing with the scrums. He gave two official warnings to players who he got mixed up. He didn't know Monday from Sunday. It's all good in pool play and kinda funny in a way. But come semi-finals time it'll start deciding results as opposed to margins, and I have a big problem with that. So should you.

THIS^^^

Although I think I could forgive him for getting 1 and 18 mixed up

 

[ABs2011]

In 2001 we drew with them in the last minute.

Well it's easy to dismiss and excuse the Ab's performances this year. But that's up to you I guess. I'm managing my expectations and realities of some players in my own way and I feel it's a bit more in touch with the current squad quality than a lot of AB supporters who think all is well and we will out of nowhere put the foot down. I'm sure they wanted to play better than what they did against Argentina and Namibia (regardless of the 13 changes). For me the backline wasn't clicking, Dan wasn't sharp (good kicking) and some of our forwards were laborious around the park. This wasn't the first time we had seen this performance this year from an All Black team. That's where the concern is coming from.

Is that going to disappear overnight and we're going to suddenly 'put the foot down' and get rid of this? Doubt it. Fortunately the way we have been combating this is the 2nd half is with the right changes. One concern I really have is someone truly competent to come on and replace Dan if he's having a bad day at the office. I don't just mean his running game, but his kicking game (which Barrett isn't good enough IMO), Sopoaga left at home, he should be there as an option. I'm going to the Otago vs Southland game today and look forward to watching him, I'd just rather at this stage be watching him on the TV, in England.

I still think we will win games through our bench, but we're making things hard for ourselves when if we just stopped with a few habitual selections could make things a lot easier.

We just see things a little differently I guess.

Regarding Arg - I was re-confirming the point that an earlier poster made (which you seemed unfamiliar with) that Arg were easy beats at some points in time, albeit before your time by the sounds. Not saying they were always easy beats or that they didn't compete at times (I did watch that draw), But if you don't consider 93 - 8 an easy beat I'm not sure this discussion will go much further. Just filling you in on the state of the game before you were watching is all!

Regarding how the ABs are tracking - Look I'm not saying that I don't have concerns, I don't think anybody is are they? Nor am I saying I am dismissing any of their performances (you have a habit of putting words in peoples mouths by the way). What I am saying is that this team under Hansen has a pretty darn good record, so to say they have to pull something out of no-where is a little dismissive of what they have achieved don't you think? This team under Hansen has lost only 3 of 47, they have held the Bledisloe for the duration of Hansen's tenure, they have won the RC in all but this last year (arguably the one that means the least), have had an undefeated season etc etc, the list goes on. It's perhaps one of the best records of all time. It's not like they have to pull something out of the bag to start winning games right!

Look, like you whilst I back my own opinion and analysis of the game, at some point you have to be a little humble and respect the records of a great team and a great coaching staff and give them the benefit of the doubt that they may in fact know what they are doing - don't you think? I mean if you knew more than them then it would be you getting paid the big bucks wouldn't it? We are nothing more than arm chair critics - unless you are Jamie Joseph in disguise!

 

[Scrum Bum]

I've never regarded Argentina as easy beats. I grew up knowing that their forward pack was up there with the best and they've come a long way. Japan and Italy were more "easy beaty" than Argentina back then.

BUt what a boring game. Idnd't even watch the second half.

I agree with Kiwi. I think there are definitely too many pedestrians in the current squad, and our forward pack is soft (Almost like how Australia used to be). If the Highlanders won the S15 like they did this year in 2014, then we may have seen more changes. A complete shake up and changing of the guard wouldn't have helped. However I have faith in the current management, I just hope they don't rotate too much from here on in.

I have long held the view that Sopoaga is the most well rounded and Carter-esque of our first fives not named Dan Carter. Cruden is great on attack but his goal kicking can sometimes be off. Barrett is capable of magical moments, but isn't clutch. Lima's main advantage over those two is that he is cool headed and has composure. I don't like Slade too. What a coincidence... Slade being Highlanders 10 - every season is a bad one -- Sopoaga as Highlanders 10 - success! Pick Sopoaga.

 

[Kiwi_]

I know the record and have loved every minute of it. But that's in the past and teams need to continue to evolve to stay the best and that involves making hard decisions like dropping mainstays or dropping out off form players. I respect Hansen and the coaching staff A LOT and of course they know what they're doing, but they also clearly have their favourites, like every coach/manager and we have had a lot of get out off jail performances in the last few years for him to hold such a record. A try either way in the last few years and we would have lost the Bledisloe earlier, had a first loss to Ireland etc, it's been a game of margins at times, it's not that I don't forget or respect their records, it's I'm aware of the margins behind them and don't have such an invincible aura in my mind that a lot of our fans think we do (more the NZ public, not specifically you so don't take offence, but also don't patronize me please).

Hansen perhaps hasn't been tested with the problem of ageing players or out off form players as much in the last few years, it's a problem I don't think he's faced and I think he's about to face it. I still have faith we will win, but I think there's things we can do better or tweak to make it easier for ourselves and that's letting go of habitual ageing under performing players and out off form players, where do you draw the line with under performing "main stays"?.

 

[ABs2011]

Yeah bro, I understand what you are saying. I'm with you in a lot of that.

I do think Hansen has faced the ageing player issue though, well to a point anyway. Think about all the new players that he brought in after RWC 2011. Timing is everything and I think that was all pretty well thought out, so that there are a bunch of guys in the squad now with 3-4 years experience thanks to the changes that Hansen made early on. It's crazy to think that a to of these guys weren't around last time.

 

[ncurd]

THIS^^^

Although I think I could forgive him for getting 1 and 18 mixed up

I know I did, I could of sworn he gave YC to one, then when a prop was injured he was brought back on to keep contested scrums. But then the other guy was substituted off....

 

[chikwa chibwe]

I don't know man, I reckon the Hansen era has lifted our expectations of the AB team to a level never seen before. I mean, whats our record over the last couple seasons? It has to be up there or better than any other 2-year period in AB history. I get what you are saying, and perhaps the ABs have not looked great at times (OZ, Samoa, SA, Arg, etc etc), BUT, I truly believe they have largely been just doing what ever it takes to win over the last few games. I don't think they are foxing, I just don't think they have really put their foot down. They have made heaps of changes to their team game in game out, there are guys getting over injuries, and I don't think they have shown their full hand in terms of strategy etc (in fact it would be disappointing if they had).

Does this mean we WILL win the RWC? Of course not, its a tough comp, with heaps of teams that can contend. But the point I;m trying to make is that I am not concerned about how this team is tracking at this stage and am not reading to much into performances yet.

I will however be concerned if we do not start to field our best team, or close to it, from this point on. They need more time to get the combinations right IMO, particularly the 8,9 10 combo as well as DCs combos with the backs.

As for Argentina not being easy beats? You are 25 right? So that explains it. Cause the 80s 90s and even early 2000s Argentina were an easy beat for much of that time. They have improved out of site in the last 15 years or so.

I was at the game at Athletic park back in 97 where we won 93-8. Some of the best running rugby I've ever seen.

Let's call it as we see it.AB's are not making any side quake in their boots . The scrum and the breakdown area are not functioning well. That affects the momentum of he side . First time tackling is not what it should be. We need to be concerned . I have rarely seen the likes of Kaino win a turnover or let alone be a nuisance to the other side.I rarely see him with ball in hand get over the gain line .

 

[ABs2011]

Let's call it as we see it.AB's are not making any side quake in their boots . The scrum and the breakdown area are not functioning well. That affects the momentum of he side . First time tackling is not what it should be. We need to be concerned . I have rarely seen the likes of Kaino win a turnover or let alone be a nuisance to the other side.I rarely see him with ball in hand get over the gain line .

To be fair you are calling it as YOU see it, not "we"

At the risk of repeating myself, this All Black team has a world class coaching staff, a world class squad, with a world class record over the last 4 years - they have only lost 3 times in 4 years. They have a fantastic mix of youth and experience, and are injury free (with the exception of a few ****les). They are basically guaranteed a QF spot and have two more pool games to continue building and working on some of their concerns. It's a tough tournament to win, particularly away from home, so perhaps "concern" is a relative thing. I'm not concerned at the moment. I acknowledge they need to work on a few things, but thats about it. Otherwise for me they are bang on track. The personnel they have and their record is enough for me to be happy to back these guys and give them all the benefit of the doubt that they know what they are doing.

So 2 questions:Is there another team who's situation you would rather be in? If so who?

and given you "concerns", what are your predictions for this AB team?

 

[The Jones Boy]

The AB's have too many old farts in the team, come quarter finals they will break down and we don't have any quality cover for them.