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[2015 RWC] Pool C: New Zealand vs. Tonga (09/10/2015)

I wasn't really going to bring him up at all, I just have a difference of opinion and as this is a rugby forum where people discuss opinions, I thought it might be appropriate to yknow...say something. It isn't really having my blinkers on at all. I said earlier there are broader policy arguments that go beyond form. No need to get upset mate. It's not like I'm anti Naholo anyway. He's going to be great, I have no doubts there.

Haha, not upset at all bro, I just find it interesting that (1) there seem to be several people that still don't seem to have a handle on the backgroup contact stuff with Piutau (as I genuinely thought that was common knowledge now) and (2) how frequently people still want to discuss players that arent even at the cup - surely the time for all that was before and directly after the squad naming. I'm not sure what that achieves other than a possible retrospective "I told you so" which I guess floats some peopels boats ;)
 
Fair enough mate. It's the first time I've mentioned anything about Piutau since before the World Cup started, and I only did so because I saw a few others raise him. But I also acknowledged sometimes these things pay off with selecting newer blood, and they certainly have in a big way in one instance. As for the first point - I was just trying to remind people to be vigilant that there still may be a portion of the story which we don't know. Not a huge issue, and I'll drop it now so this thread can go back to being about what it was meant to be lol.
 
Fair enough mate. It's the first time I've mentioned anything about Piutau since before the World Cup started, and I only did so because I saw a few others raise him. But I also acknowledged sometimes these things pay off with selecting newer blood, and they certainly have in a big way in one instance. As for the first point - I was just trying to remind people to be vigilant that there still may be a portion of the story which we don't know. Not a huge issue, and I'll drop it now so this thread can go back to being about what it was meant to be lol.

Cheers mate, sorry I've had this discussion with someone else in the past, hence why I am perhaps a little too vocale on it!

It is a shame that the Naholo experienment doesnt appear to have worked out. I feel for the guy, and more importnantly I am a little concerned about how this will affect his future. Every now and then it turns out players gets picked a bit sooner that they are ready (for what ever reason) and they are barely heard from again. I dont think this will be the case with Naholo, but it is a bit of a worry.

It would also be a concern IF NMS or Savea got injured from here on in (someone mentioned this earlier in the thread - was it you?) as at this stage I am far from convinced Naholo can plug that gap adequately on current form and perhaps with his lingering injury concerns.

By the way does anyone know why he was pulled against Tonga? Was it injury or just a tactical switch? Either way it could well be a prelude for what we might expect if one of the other wingers went down. Barrett at FB and Smith back to the wing.
 
I don't blame Piutau all the way though, every test he played he was awesome, yet Hansen continued to select Jane and play him on the wing, everyone else knew Jane was past it and not playing how he used too.

Yet we continued to pick old out of form players, had Hansen manned up and just played the form player this would never have happened, more Hansens/selectors fault than Piutau's imo.

I don't think we will ever know the truth and I certainly don't trust Hansen and that cockraoch Steve Tew to tell the truth.

thats simply not true, after making a good start for the All Blacks Piutau missed a number of tests with an injury and then Ben Smith was preferred at 14.

Piutau's non selection is surely mostly to do with the way he handled his contract negotiations with the NZRU. that clearly ****** Hansen off, the selectors have come out and said it wasn't but thats bullcrap. Piutau had a rough super rugby season for the blues but post super rugby he did absolutely everything right. Including being the best overall player in our first three tests this season he played in. HE absolutely saved us in the South African test and was man of the match. Then he had some big performances for Auckland in ITM cup.

To not select him after that? Of course it was political.

Selecting Naholo over him was a straight up mistake even before seeing Naholo come back and struggle. Hindsight now just makes that mistake even worse. In particular because Naholo looks nowhere near as polished around the field, under high balls and defending compared to how Piutau plays. Ive always said that Piutau's game looks suited for playoff footy because he has such a polished skillset.

IMO our back three would be superb right now with Piutau at 11, Nehe at 14 and Ben Smith at 15.

Savea is well off the boil despite getting some trys. Hes been able to finish but hes had many opportunities in space where he would normally create havoc and hes being put down easily and often losing the ball in contact on on the ground as well.

I also think Moala would be a better option than Savea at 11 right now. Moala has a good skillset, he's a genuine top level defender and the all blacks are clearly going to use wingers around the ruck a lot and Moala would be awesome at that job no doubt about it.
 
I have to agree with Larksea here. Playing funny buggers and being political and holding grudges isn't the way to handle a RWC, especially when Piutau would have added a lot to the squad, especially come knock out Rugby. Naholo is a great player, but hasn't had nearly enough exposure at test level.

An up and down game vs Argentina then a broken foot should have buried his chances of making the RWC, considering he couldn't start to the 3rd game either - That's pretty ridiculous. You take your full strength team, no matter the circumstances. Naholo might put in a great performance, we shall see, but at the moment Piutau would definitely have been the best option and it's true he was one of our best players in the Samoa and RC games this year. Not too mention one of the players of the 2013 tour.
 
Suggestions about best all blacks back row being thrown about

6) Cane, 7) McCaw, 8) Kaino being one another is

6) Vito, 7) McCaw, 8) Kaino/Read
 
Suggestions about best all blacks back row being thrown about

6) Cane, 7) McCaw, 8) Kaino being one another is

6) Vito, 7) McCaw, 8) Kaino/Read

The backrows fine, changes can be made later in the game to bring in Vito or Cane, with Read or Kaino moving to lock cover. Question marks over Reads form, but he will step up vs France and Kaino is starting to show his worth and experience again.

It will stay 6.Kaino 7.McCaw 8.Read
 
The issue with Piutau became as much about trust (perhaps more) than form/skills/experience etc. I dont know this for sure, but my guess is once Piutau broke their trust, all things considered they felt like they had better options. I'm not saying there wasnt a political element as well, but at this level, and particulalry given the abundance of talent in NZ, this game is not just about skil sets and form, its about which players the AB coaching staff and management believe the can rely on as well! Anyway thats just my opinion.

I'm happy with the standard back-row selection as well. Kaino, McCaw, Read.

The main issue is the form of Read, and how they can execute a strategy to deal with the Hooper Pocock combo should that match-up eventuate - or for that matter the speed to the breakdown of any opposition!
 
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The backrow is fine as it is for the French and the SA's, however I am concerned that the Aus backrow will eat us alive if we don't improve, the amount of turnovers that Pocock and Hooper get is awesome.

Hard to win a game if you keep losing possession.
 
Tigs, I would have agreed with Vito, McCaw and Read but I'll eat my hat if Hansen drops Kaino in the KO games. Read needs to pick up the pace as well, but he definitely won't be dropped and I don't think I'd want him to anyway.

I'm not opposed to a double-open side backrow, especially if Pocock/Hooper is the new norm, but I doubt it'll happen this World Cup. Cane to be the next ABs 7, and 6 is anyone's guess. Ardie Savea? Matt Todd can play there and he's an excellent player. I do think if Read and Cane are there we probably need someone physical though.
 
Tigs, I would have agreed with Vito, McCaw and Read but I'll eat my hat if Hansen drops Kaino in the KO games. Read needs to pick up the pace as well, but he definitely won't be dropped and I don't think I'd want him to anyway.

I'm not opposed to a double-flanker backrow, especially if Pocock/Hooper is the new norm, but I doubt it'll happen this World Cup. Cane to be the next ABs 7, and 6 is anyone's guess. Ardie Savea? Matt Todd can play there and he's an excellent player. I do think if Read and Cane are there we probably need someone physical though.

I heard we wont see a change in personell to combat Hooper + Pocock, just a change in tactics to counter it.
 
After watching the Ireland game, I can't help but feel this All Blacks outfit will hammer France, who frankly look pretty disjointed and pretty clueless in attack against a well organised defence.
 
Surely France will be pretty bloody knackered after the game against Ireland as well. They made a gargantuan amount of tackles in a highly intense match.

They can surprise at any time - but they've "surprised us" so much and broken our hearts so many times over the years that we shouldn't be "surprised" any longer. Of course they can play like men possessed. We should be ready for that. It just seems too cruel or bizarre or whatever the word is for 2007 Cardiff to happen all over again.
 
yeah loose forwards are an area of interest with Read & Kaino being below par. Kaino was better in this game and Read was very very average.

IMO Messam looked really good in the last 20, he linked really well with a draw and pass in midfield twice showing nice hands, one which resulted in a try. See his work at the front of the maul that resulted in sam canes try plus some very physical defense. His hands looked good he doesn't look like he is going to drop a ball like Read is doing constantly... To me Messam looked overworked and a bit tired in super rugby, his stint off the bench he actually looked fresh and like he has some good rugby in him again.

I dont know where Messam fits in going into the knockout games though. I honestly think he looks good to go but that would mean pulling either Read or Kaino out which isn't likely. Good option on the bench as well.

It may well be that Messam's job now is to keep in beat and be ready if there is an injury. At least we know we have a guy who is genuinely experienced and in form ready to go if one of our front line goes down. His ****le seems to be right with perfect timing going into the business end of the show.

Vito has done a good job in that bench lock position and want him to stay in that position and not be promoted to starting. It really suits his strengths, he is a very good 20-30min player. I'm always concerned that when the pressure is truly on he will not show up, IMO thats a habit for him even in super/itm cup rugby when the pressure goes on his team he becomes a passenger between lineouts (where he is very good). When the pack is strong overall he does look very good but that's less important than how a player performs under the pump.

Sam cane has been the real mover, he and McCaw are our form loose forwards. Hes provided genuine impact off the bench and his defense is epic. He genuinely gets around the field and tackles like a younger McCaw. Hes a smart ball carrier as seen in Ben Smiths try. That maul where he detached by accident he made a very smart move to no try and reattach, players often make that mistake and the ref pulls it up.

If Cane is on the bench he deserves a good 30min, pull read of Kaino off and let him lose.

Starting Cane at 6 is an option, IMO he would better than Kaino. but having such a strong bench is the edge the All Blacks have over every other team right now. We haven't been our best so far but we should be the best team in the last 30min. Any team we are close to after 50min we will beat and Cane off the bench is an important part of that strategy.

on the rest...

good to see carter lift, I always said Carter looks like he has another gear in him. my only concern is that we are going back to a closed stadium for the quarter final where he has had goal kicking issues. His defense is so good, he just has amazing technique. Hes like a zen master on defense he touches guys and they fall down. He gets the right angle, always gets past attempted fends and players go straight down.

Conrad smith is still looking a bit off beat and behind the game a bit. Fekitoa has looked good but I cant see a swap happening I just hope smith lifts and starts to bring his A game. there have been a few times in this WC where smith has tried a kick of some sort when he would have been much better off holding the ball, his kicks have lacked accuracy and not resulted in anything.

Nonu looked pretty good, but I feel like he has more in him. I think he has a big game in him saved for the Semi/Final. I can see a potential clash with Aussie as a game tailor made for nonu to have a big one ;)

Nehe has surely earned himself that 14 jersey going into the knockout games. He looks like he has that edge we have been needing.

Naholo more questions than answers still, probably wont be selected going into the serious stuff.... when he scored that opening try against Georgia I thought we were going to finally see him in tune but it hasn't happened. And honestly if one of our starters gets injured I would bring in a replacement ahead of him. He doesn't look confident enough around the field for knockout rugby. I just feel like if we play a team like SA or AUS they will expose him. If Nehe or Savea got injured, I would bring Piutau or Moala straight in ahead of Naholo. I would actually start Barrett ahead of him no doubt.

Ben Smith is looking great, typical ben smith has made like 1 mistake in 3 full games.

Barrett, the AB's attack does look like it has much more bite when Barrett is involved, he has proven himself a much more consistent threat to the line than Carter so he attracts a lot more attention from defenders and creates more space for others. His speed is going to be a massive 2nd half asset in games to come.

Woodcock, what an amazing career. He will go down now as "the" best prop NZ has ever produced and one of the true greats of the front row in the history of the game. But for the right now, his injury may actually strengthen the AB's a bit. Crockett is looking good and Moody could come in and make some nice impact. Even Ben Franks probably offers a bit more right now than Woody as long as he keeps himself off the naughty chair.

Generally I thought it was a better performance from the AB's and it still looks like they have more in them if needed. They made a lot of impact with the pick and go which is going to be an important tactic going forward. Mauling still needs some polish. And I'd like to see more pressure and accuracy on opposition breakdowns.

The defense looks very solid, credit to tonga there were a few periods where they strung some really good attacking play together for long periods which was as good as any team in the world could put out and for the most part the AB line held it out.

Our Bench is the making of this side, we are maybe the only genuine 23man side in the WC. SBW is proving his worth every game, Barrett is by far the best backup 10 going. Charlie & Cane have provided genuine impact. And others like Vito, Messam, Fekitoa, Ben franks have done well. TKB looked a bit better on his leg this week, and interestingly he seems to be the preferred bench 9.


I feel something big brewing from Aaron Smith. Hes been pretty good but he has so much more in him. I feel like hes kinda a secret weapon right now, deliberately holding back a bit. in the super rugby finals he showed he can grab big games by the scruff of the neck. he's the key for truly dominant performances from here. hes going to take teams by surprise :)
 
I heard we wont see a change in personell to combat Hooper + Pocock, just a change in tactics to counter it.

Yep, can't see us getting isolated with the ball, more pick and goes off the ruck I reckon. Metres to be made through Crockett, Retallick, Whitelock with Savea likely coming inside as well.
 
After watching the Ireland game, I can't help but feel this All Blacks outfit will hammer France, who frankly look pretty disjointed and pretty clueless in attack against a well organised defence.
I completely agree with this.

I hear people talking about France being a bogey side, unpredictable, dark horses etc. I can't see anything other than NZ squashing them purely judged on what I've seen so far this tournament.
 
I completely agree with this.

I hear people talking about France being a bogey side, unpredictable, dark horses etc. I can't see anything other than NZ squashing them purely judged on what I've seen so far this tournament.

Yeah, but you must respect any opponent you face come the knock out rounds.

In saying that, I expect one of two performances from the French;

1. They come out the most fired up they have ever been since 2011 and really stick it to us.

2. They roll over and take it.

It seems to always be one or the other with them, how do you even begin to coach a team that plays like this?
 
Yep, can't see us getting isolated with the ball, more pick and goes off the ruck I reckon. Metres to be made through Crockett, Retallick, Whitelock with Savea likely coming inside as well.

Yup, and an additional man committed to each ruck is what I understand we will do. Limits the attacking options outwide a bit, but at least you have better chance to hold onto possesion.
 
From anyone who knows the French side and saw the Ire Vs Fr game. Was that a full strength French side:\?
 

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