[2015 Six Nations] England vs France (Round 5)

[msf]

Haha, 'suicide', don't you think that's a bit strong? And wouldn't a good manager have tried this at least once against a team like Samoa, just to see if it really was 'suicide.' I think Robshaw is perfect example of what Wayne Smith was talking about when he said that statistics aren't worth much, since they don't tell you anything about quality, only quantity. Yes, Robshaw makes a lot of tackles, but does he make dominant tackles? No, at least not in the matches I've seen. Yes, he makes a lot of carries, but are they carries that get us over the advantage line? Nope. Wood does the first, in terms of chopping people down behind the advantage line, and Ewers does this and carries over the advantage line, but isn't as good as Wood in the line out. So I would choose one of the two, depending on the balance of the rest of the back row.

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Oops. carries over, carries behind is what Robshaw does.

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Misread my own post, it was right the first time.

 

[ncurd]

Feel sorry for Attwood but clearly Lancaster prefer the cover Easter provides and he wasn't too bad at lock during the other matches and provides back row cover as well. Not a surprising choice as a fir Lawes/Parling easily make the the side over Attwood.

Problem for Attwood is he's our 4th choice and while he's been good this tournament he's done nothing to prove he deserves to be further up the pecking order. He's almost lucky to be considered ahead of Kuris.

Rest of the team isn't even close to shocking, I'd have dropped Burrel but I've been saying that since round 1, don't think round 5 it was going to change.

Real question is how long do people think Cips will be allowed to play for

 

[LiRFCMatt]

Feel sorry for Attwood but clearly Lancaster prefer the cover Easter provides and he wasn't too bad at lock during the other matches and provides back row cover as well. Not a surprising choice as a fir Lawes/Parling easily make the the side over Attwood.

Problem for Attwood is he's our 4th choice and while he's been good this tournament he's done nothing to prove he deserves to be further up the pecking order. He's almost lucky to be considered ahead of Kuris.

Rest of the team isn't even close to shocking, I'd have dropped Burrel but I've been saying that since round 1, don't think round 5 it was going to change.

Real question is how long do people think Cips will be allowed to play for

Depends completely on points difference! If we need 7/10 points, and France are strangling the game, then he'll need to come on and provide that spark, but only worth considering in the last 10 in my opinion, as long as the points difference isn't too great England should have enough to win this.

 

[Maverick1987]

Haha, 'suicide', don't you think that's a bit strong? And wouldn't a good manager have tried this at least once against a team like Samoa, just to see if it really was 'suicide.' I think Robshaw is perfect example of what Wayne Smith was talking about when he said that statistics aren't worth much, since they don't tell you anything about quality, only quantity. Yes, Robshaw makes a lot of tackles, but does he make dominant tackles? No, at least not in the matches I've seen. Yes, he makes a lot of carries, but are they carries that get us over the advantage line? Nope. Wood does the first, in terms of chopping people down behind the advantage line, and Ewers does this and carries over the advantage line, but isn't as good as Wood in the line out. So I would choose one of the two, depending on the balance of the rest of the back row.

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Oops. carries over, carries behind is what Robshaw does.

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Misread my own post, it was right the first time.

It's about what players do, not players are capable of doing .....

For example 36 "should" be one of the best 12s in the business he has a great pass, a kicking game, a good defence and is a strong runner but he doesn't put them together . For me no one who has played for England in the back row has proved they should be in the team over Robshaw .

By the way I completely understand what you mean about trying things against Samoa but Lancaster left himself with very little choice after messing around for the first 3 years of his tenure . Now the most important thing is picking similar teams to get a bit of continuity into the squad . He really needed to identify earlier who were the better players and build a team around this rather than sticking with players like Barritt, Farrell, Goode, Ashton, 36

The best time to throw players in was at the start rather than playing Botha and Deacon.

Nobody expected much when he first started

 

[msf]

I would have both Wood and Kvesic over him every day, the first because he does everything Robshaw does, only better, and the second because he has the 7s skills that Robshaw lacks. Kvesic hasn't been given a chance to show that he can be consistent, but I think Wood has been one of our most consistent players.

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He has been dropped once, for a game against Samoa, so it's quite likely that Lancaster thinks he's consistent too.

 

[Maverick1987]

I would have both Wood and Kvesic over him every day, the first because he does everything Robshaw does, only better, and the second because he has the 7s skills that Robshaw lacks. Kvesic hasn't been given a chance to show that he can be consistent, but I think Wood has been one of our most consistent players.

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He has been dropped once, for a game against Samoa, so it's quite likely that Lancaster thinks he's consistent too.

Wood has been very poor in the last year imo . He was a penalty machine . 2 years ago I would have probably agreed with you but not now . I get your point with Kvesic but it's too late now . Kev is too raw to go in this close to a RWC and only a fool would drop the captain and most consistent performer for him . Like I said I sort of agree with you that Robbo would be better suited to 6 maybe with Kvesic or Armitage at 7 but he won't get dropped now

 

[msf]

I think the idea that Wood is a penalty machine comes from people misunderstanding the role of the back row - Wood gives away penalties because he competes hard at the breakdown, just as McCaw and others do. Robshaw doesn't give away as many because he doesn't compete as hard at the breakdown, which might be what Lancaster wants, according to good no 10, but is definitely not what I want from my back rows. Vunipola is another example, he gives away penalties but again is very effective at the breakdown. Going further back, Laurence Dallaglio, Martin Johnson and Neil Back weren't exactly shy of giving away penalties either.

 

[LiRFCMatt]

I would have both Wood and Kvesic over him every day, the first because he does everything Robshaw does, only better, and the second because he has the 7s skills that Robshaw lacks. Kvesic hasn't been given a chance to show that he can be consistent, but I think Wood has been one of our most consistent players.

Kvesic has played twice for England, and not very well at that. He can't be consistently good if the first time he wears the jersey he is underwhelming, unlike Robshaw who played once, captained the next game and never looked back.

 

[msf]

Wrong, Kvesic played so well on the Argentina tour that Lancaster suggested that he was putting pressure on Robshaw. He also played very well against the Crusaders last summer.

 

[Raggs]

Kvesic has played twice for England, and not very well at that. He can't be consistently good if the first time he wears the jersey he is underwhelming, unlike Robshaw who played once, captained the next game and never looked back.

Eh? He played very well against Arg, twice, gaining plaudits from Lancaster. He was monstrous against the Crusaders, securing rucks, making 4 steals (maybe more) whilst 3 players tried clearing him out.

He's not had a single bad game in an England shirt, and has even put in some very eye catching performances.

I'm not saying he should necessarily replace Robshaw, but to suggest he hasn't played well is crazy.

Equally with Wood, back in 2012 I'd have taken him over Robshaw, on current form, no thanks.

People have this opinion that Hask is a penalty machine and Wood is an angel, but they've given away the same number of pens in their last 6 starts. Wood also managed 2 brainless, pointless and needless ones in 12 mins against Samoa.

 

[LiRFCMatt]

Eh? He played very well against Arg, twice, gaining plaudits from Lancaster. He was monstrous against the Crusaders, securing rucks, making 4 steals (maybe more) whilst 3 players tried clearing him out.

He's not had a single bad game in an England shirt, and has even put in some very eye catching performances.

I'm not saying he should necessarily replace Robshaw, but to suggest he hasn't played well is crazy.

Equally with Wood, back in 2012 I'd have taken him over Robshaw, on current form, no thanks.

People have this opinion that Hask is a penalty machine and Wood is an angel, but they've given away the same number of pens in their last 6 starts. Wood also managed 2 brainless, pointless and needless ones in 12 mins against Samoa.

Haha maybe I was just trying to be slightly antagonistic, shame on me. So why do we think the likes of Kvesic and Ewers aren't getting chances off the bench. Wood certainly hasn't impressed as much at club level.

 

[Raggs]

No idea on Kvesic. He suffered Glaws' powerpuff pack (though did well himself) last season, but has looked good this season. Out of favour for some reason I guess. Or Clarke isn't getting dropped, Wood has too much credit, Hask offers more at 6, and there's no room left for Kev.

Ewers offers nothing in the lineout, OK, Robshaw and Haskell aren't amazing, but they can get in the air. Ewers will need to wait until he either goes 8, or we find a lineout 8.

 

[msf]

I think it's a simple case of not being able to drop your captain, a la Martin Corry with Andy Robinson, and Steve Borthwick with Martin Johnson (although even Martin Johnson realized that he had to drop him in the end). The solution is either not making an average player captain, or just awarding the captaincy on a game-to-game basis, rather than Lancaster's tournament basis.

 

[goodNumber10]

the thing with Kvesic, there must be a reason other than stubbornness he's been left out, and i'm not sure i accept the "he's the captain" argument, or else i think he'd move him to 6 which he's shown no intention of doing.

All coaches have favourites but good teams generally pick themselves, so if Kvesic is so good then there must be a statistical or technical reason hes being left out, i don't think many coaches would leave someone out who is "head and shoulders above" the current incumbent.

What i would say is his England games were against a depleted Pumas and a depleted Crusaders, so they have to be taken int eh context of someone like Robshaw competing against the AB's, SA etc....

 

[msf]

Haha, good no 10 meet Stuart Lancaster...a good example of Lancaster ignoring stats (which he claims not to) was Wade this season, who has beaten all the other wingers on every stat that was produced, but who lost out to Jonny May and Jack Nowell in selection. I think Lancaster only uses stats to support his own prejudices, just like everyone else...

 

[Raggs]

Agreed GN10, but Kev has put in the work at AP level, and at sub international level. What has Clark done to be ahead of him?

 

[msf]

Anyway, who thinks Saturday will be a borefest? Every game with France in it has been so far...

 

[goodNumber10]

Agreed GN10, but Kev has put in the work at AP level, and at sub international level. What has Clark done to be ahead of him?

no argument about Clarke mate, he's solid, but i wouldn't select him - again though there must a statistical or technical reason - or he juts excels int heir systems where Kvesic doesn't (not that i know either way).

 

[msf]

If Robshaw was selected over others based on stats in club games this year, the Champions Cup can't have counted for much: http://www.epcrugby.com/statistics/tournament.php

Yes, Robshaw missed a game, but so did Wood, and he was still in the top 3 line out winners. Clark would seem to have a good case for a start based on these stats, so perhaps this was important in his case but not in Robshaw's.

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Notice that Kvesic made the ECC top ten on both tackles made and defenders beaten, which kind of proves my point about him having extra skills that Robshaw lacks.

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And that Clark also lacks, for that matter.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Haha, good no 10 meet Stuart Lancaster...a good example of Lancaster ignoring stats (which he claims not to) was Wade this season, who has beaten all the other wingers on every stat that was produced

Including missed tackles, unforced errors, and tries conceded.

There are definitely reasons that Wade isn't an international player, despite how good he is going forwards.

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Notice that Kvesic made the ECC top ten on both tackles made and defenders beaten, which kind of proves my point about him having extra skills that Robshaw lacks.

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And that Clark also lacks, for that matter.

Clarke is literally the top tackler in the tournament, what are you on about?
Also Kvesic was playing against Brive, Oyonnax and Zebre - Robshaw against Leinster, Castres and Wasps - pretty easy to say which group it's easier to shine against.