[2021 Six Nations] England vs France (13/03/21)

[Wichita]

Youngs, Fazlet, Ford and Binny have more caps than the entire French starting XV.

The only French starters with more than 30 caps are Fickou with 60 and Dulin with 33. We only have 4 with less than 30.

Starting line ups are 741 v 330. Differential would have been even more stark if Daly and George had kept their places.

Despite the cap differences the average ages are fairly similar - just over 26 for Fra and nearly 27.5 for Eng.

Not sure what any of that proves except perhaps that the French finally did something about it when they realised the same old wasn't working.

Just comparing with the 2019 WC teams:
15 English players out of the 23 that played the final will be in Twickenham tomorrow (and as you mentioned, 13 of the starters that lost to Wales two weeks ago were in this WC team)
9 French players out of the 23 that lost to Wales in the quarterfinal will be in Twickenham tomorrow
So definitely an obvious difference in the renewal rates of both teams. Though the French teams have been quite a revolving door in the last 10 years.

 

[Ospervat]

England:
15. Malins
14. Watson
13. Slade
12. Farrell
11. May
10. Ford
09. Youngs

1. M Vunipola
2. Cowan-Dickie
3. Sinckler
4. Itoje
5. Ewels
6. Wilson
7. Curry
8. B Vunipola

16. George 17. Genge 18. Stuart 19. Hill 20. Earl
21. Robson 22. Lawrence 23. Daly



Top

Oh Dear.
Pretty much ground hog day.
Penalty count 15+

 

[LIONSxv]

Just a quick note, the French backrow is noticeably larger than the English one, so more options at the lineout but potentially less impact at the breakdown.
On the other hand, the French locks are the bulkiest there are in France at the moment, but probably less mobile than their English Counterparts. Balance, balance...

Larger in terms of height or weight? Don't forget we have 21st binny playing, alongside Wilson and curry who are both 110-112 kg.
For me curry was better when he was lighter. Although to be fair to him, there has been a definite shift away from jacklers at international level in the last 12 months. Teams are definitely given extra time to secure their own ball at the breakdown, which for me is wrong hey ho. The extra time definitely suits the French, without a specialist 7

 

[Wichita]

Larger in terms of height or weight? Don't forget we have 21st binny playing, alongside Wilson and curry who are both 110-112 kg.
For me curry was better when he was lighter. Although to be fair to him, there has been a definite shift away from jacklers at international level in the last 12 months. Teams are definitely given extra time to secure their own ball at the breakdown, which for me is wrong hey ho. The extra time definitely suits the French, without a specialist 7

Larger in terms of height. The French options at the line out are in the backrow, and the three of them form a all very mobile, running backrow. But with two 2m 20,5+ stones locks, we should be able to compete in the scrum and mauls...
Dylan Cretin is closer to the usual light flanker but both Aldritt and Ollivon are 6/8, both larger and slightly heavier than Curry and Wilson.
Ollivon and Aldritt actually are very much in the same height and weight range as Itoje and Ewels

I'm too lazy to do the maths, but I think this might well be the first time in years that the French pack is weightier than the English one even with the two Vunipolas...

 

[LIONSxv]

Larger in terms of height. The French options at the line out are in the backrow, and the three of them form a all very mobile, running backrow. But with two 2m 20,5+ stones locks, we should be able to compete in the scrum and mauls...
Dylan Cretin is closer to the usual light flanker but both Aldritt and Ollivon are 6/8, both larger and slightly heavier than Curry and Wilson.
Ollivon and Aldritt actually are very much in the same height and weight range as Itoje and Ewels

I'm too lazy to do the maths, but I think this might well be the first time in years that the French pack is weightier than the English one even with the two Vunipolas...

You have definate weight advantage at lock. England have selected Mr average, ewels who is at best 112kg. Alongside Itoje who is at best 115kg

Front rows will be similar. Although I'm not as yet convinced that your props are particularly strong scrummegers. Back row doesn't really matter all that much in terms of weight at set piece. Although, I would hazard a guess that definitely Wilson and possibly Curry are heavier than Olivon. Fat boy binny is in a weight class of his own!!

In all fairness weight is only part of the equation, as your best scrummeger in the last 20 years, nicola mas. Was less than 17st. One of my favourite front rowers to watch. Superb technician

 

[Wichita]

You have definate weight advantage at lock. England have selected Mr average, ewels who is at best 112kg. Alongside Itoje who is at best 115kg

Front rows will be similar. Although I'm not as yet convinced that your props are particularly strong scrummegers. Back row doesn't really matter all that much in terms of weight at set piece. Although, I would hazard a guess that definitely Wilson and possibly Curry are heavier than Olivon. Fat boy binny is in a weight class of his own!!

In all fairness weight is only part of the equation, as your best scrummeger in the last 20 years, nicola mas. Was less than 17st. One of my favourite front rowers to watch. Superb technician

Fully agree on your opinion on Mas, he was able to put much bigger and stronger front rowers on the back foot just on sheer technical ability. The French Jason Leonard!
We used to have great scrummagers but now the frontrower must be able to do much more than before, so I agree that the French front rowers are nothing special in a scrum, but then Sinckler and Vunipola are not in the form of their life, so I do not expect much of a difference there.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Larger in terms of height. The French options at the line out are in the backrow, and the three of them form a all very mobile, running backrow. But with two 2m 20,5+ stones locks, we should be able to compete in the scrum and mauls....

A mobile back row and 2 monsters at lock. As it should be!

Larger in terms of height or weight? Don't forget we have 21st binny playing, alongside Wilson and curry who are both 110-112 kg.
For me curry was better when he was lighter.

You take published weights with a big pinch of salt. But if Curry and Wilson are similar weights you've got the difference between a genuine heavyweight and a pumped up cruiserweight. That tell eventually.

Fully agree on your opinion on Mas, he was able to put much bigger and stronger front rowers on the back foot just on sheer technical ability. The French Jason Leonard!

Leonard was a big unit, I'd say more Jeff Probyn. He was pretty small, - maybe not even 16 stone but would regularly put opponents' heads where the sun don't shine.

 

[LIONSxv]

A mobile back row and 2 monsters at lock. As it should be!



You take published weights with a big pinch of salt. But if Curry and Wilson are similar weights you've got the difference between a genuine heavyweight and a pumped up cruiserweight. That tell eventually.



Leonard was a big unit, I'd say more Jeff Probyn. He was pretty small, - maybe not even 16 stone but would regularly put opponents' heads where the sun don't shine.

I don't actually think French back row isn't all that mobile. Height yes, but acceleration to the breakdown, that could be exploited by the right team. This England back row looks wrong to me, but we shall see!!

Your right about heavyweight and cruiserweights, Wilson is a naturally big 17.5 stone flanker. Curry's natural weight would be just over 16 stone at a guess
However as Eddie insisted he play no 8 last year and improve his carrying. He has definitely baulked up too much imo. He doesn't look quite as quick to the breakdown as he was 18 months ago. Although in all fairness to him, teams are been given more time to secure there own ball at the detriment of the jackal

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Don't really see the criticism of Curry supposedly getting heavy; he was listed as being 110kg long before Eddie ever supposedly asked him to bulk up to play 8 (which I don't think happened) and that was his listed weight when he played the best rugby of his career at RWC. As others have said though, you've got to take player weights with a pinch of salt and personally I don't believe that Curry actually plays at 110; although he likely bulks up to it during the off season. For comparison, LCD is listed at the same height as Curry and has said that he likes to play at between 110 and 112. There's no way that Curry's carrying as much weight as LCD. I'd guess Curry actually plays at closer to 106 which is a pretty ideal weight for a 7 IMO.

 

[Wichita]

I don't actually think French back row isn't all that mobile. Height yes, but acceleration to the breakdown, that could be exploited by the right team.

If you have a look at the try scored by Ollivon in the 2020 6N against England (when there were actual people in the stands ), he catches the ball from the touchline throw, then follows Dupont, actually staying alongside Dupont when the French 9 breaks, which is saying something. To me this qualifies as mobile.
As Dylan Cretin is probably a better runner than Ollivon and Aldritt is definitely faster than BV, I would say this French backrow is quite mobile.
And it has to be this way, as the French locks will probably not run around the field as fast as the backrow.
In comparison, if you except BV who has a front -row format (and tends to play like one recently), Curry/ Wilson/ Itoje/E wels are a much more homogeneous bunch, while the French have two completely different formats as locks and backrowers.

 

[Wichita]

A mobile back row and 2 monsters at lock. As it should be!



You take published weights with a big pinch of salt. But if Curry and Wilson are similar weights you've got the difference between a genuine heavyweight and a pumped up cruiserweight. That tell eventually.



Leonard was a big unit, I'd say more Jeff Probyn. He was pretty small, - maybe not even 16 stone but would regularly put opponents' heads where the sun don't shine.

I just came across this piece about subjective heights & weights while looking for Jason Leonard height, it was just fun as I was imagining the English team growing taller and heavier by the minute just as a Lewis Carroll character

Rugby: Forwards did not always feel the need to add an inch or so to

"When once you have thought of big men and little men," said Samuel Johnson, "it is very easy to do all the rest." The great doctor was criticising Gulliver's Travels. He might just as well have been talking about the England rugby team.

www.independent.co.uk

That said, I happened to walk past Taofifenua recently after a game (no I was not playing!), who will play as French lock tomorrow, and even though he may have added a few pounds to his resume, I'll not try to steal his breakfast...

 

[LIONSxv]

If you have a look at the try scored by Ollivon in the 2020 6N against England (when there were actual people in the stands ), he catches the ball from the touchline throw, then follows Dupont, actually staying alongside Dupont when the French 9 breaks, which is saying something. To me this qualifies as mobile.
As Dylan Cretin is probably a better runner than Ollivon and Aldritt is definitely faster than BV, I would say this French backrow is quite mobile.
And it has to be this way, as the French locks will probably not run around the field as fast as the backrow.
In comparison, if you except BV who has a front -row format (and tends to play like one recently), Curry/ Wilson/ Itoje/E wels are a much more homogeneous bunch, while the French have two completely different formats as locks and backrowers.

I hate having Ewels as our starting lock, horrible selection. Although we are down to our 5th choice lock. Still imo we can do better

You don't for me have any natural fethchers. You would definitely need a fetching back rower vs NZ, or SA or even a better selected, in form/ managed English side. I really think a back row of Willis, Curry, underhill or simmonds/ dombrandt would cause your back row all sorts of problems. It is generally much harder for a 6 foot 6 been pole flanker to dominate the breakdown ( although I accept pstd is the exception to this rule)
Again much of this would be dependent on referees, who are definitely giving teams more time to secure their own ball.

I really don't recall many out and out jacklels in this six nations or autum Cup. If that is way forward then it won't represent much of an issue for the french

I do think you are tad falling into a trap of perhaps over rating your own players based on a handful of games. We all do it. When France go on to win the six nations and then regularly beat S Hemphire teams as both England/Ireland have done in the past we can perhaps make a better judgement on your pack. At the moment for me the jury is still out for me your scrum, ruck /breakdown. Obviously picking two 6 foot 5 flankers strengthens your line out.
Your defence looks super under Edwards( stubborn England again missed a trick) And attack play is right up their. Kicking from hand is also massively improved. Dulan is in particular a great long range kicker

The quality of your starting 9,10 and centres is however right up there with the very best any nation can offer

 

[AlRums]

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

This is definitely the least excited I've ever seen this board the day before an England game. Speaks volumes for how Eddie has ruined the fun.

 

[Wichita]

This is definitely the least excited I've ever seen this board the day before an England game. Speaks volumes for how Eddie has ruined the fun.

Sorry to also ruin the fun, but I can't help hoping this board will be in the same least excited state tomorrow evening at 6:30

 

[AlRums]

Sorry to also ruin the fun, but I can't help hoping this board will be in the same least excited state tomorrow evening at 6:30

No, lynch mobs will be after the referee unless England win

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

No, lynch mobs will be after the referee unless England win

You mean after Jones. I've not seen any one after the refs even though they have been rather poor but not as poor as England's discipline and game plan.

On a serious note, most rugby games I watch these days I think the ref is rubbish. Really think there needs mass shake up in rugby somewhere or else rugby will die.

 

[Which Tyler]

On a serious note, most rugby games I watch these days I think the ref is rubbish. Really think there needs mass shake up in rugby somewhere or else rugby will die.

I suspect that the truth is that the ref.s are better than they've ever been (formal training, review process, mentoring); it's just that fans are more informed than they've ever been (discussion forums, super-slow-mo, ultra-high def.); and the stakes are higher than they've ever been (money, careers, injuries).

30 years ago, we got to watch the 6N, and that was about it; and we'd watch on standard def picture through analogue aerial, and often in black and white, with barely any replays, or zooming in on the play from few camera angles. For everything else we had to rely on a journalist's opinion. We'd only get to discuss the game afterwards with our mates at the club, without access to post-match replays to check opinions or develop beyond 4-5 of the louder individuals. Add onto that a slower game, with less ball-in-play, fewer finickety laws, and no pesky "player safety" concerns
All coupled with a greater respect for the man in the middle anyway.

 

[Welsh Exile]

It's so nice being in the position we're in now. Can just chill out and enjoy some great rugby. It's win-win for Wales today. Win and the Jam Slam is on. Lose, and England could get the wooden spoon so every cloud and all that.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I suspect that the truth is that the ref.s are better than they've ever been (formal training, review process, mentoring); it's just that fans are more informed than they've ever been (discussion forums, super-slow-mo, ultra-high def.); and the stakes are higher than they've ever been (money, careers, injuries).

30 years ago, we got to watch the 6N, and that was about it; and we'd watch on standard def picture through analogue aerial, and often in black and white, with barely any replays, or zooming in on the play from few camera angles. For everything else we had to rely on a journalist's opinion. We'd only get to discuss the game afterwards with our mates at the club, without access to post-match replays to check opinions or develop beyond 4-5 of the louder individuals. Add onto that a slower game, with less ball-in-play, fewer finickety laws, and no pesky "player safety" concerns
All coupled with a greater respect for the man in the middle anyway.

I notice it more when I watch a neutral premiership game (as I always have a side in internationals). I always find the ref will not be consistent with both teams and miss tons of stuff. Guess there is just too many rules that go in reffed most of the time and there is too much for one ref.

I know that 100% teams don't get treated fairly though and that's annoying to watch.