5 reasons why Australia sucks

[psychic duck]

I think that's a bit unfair on McCabe.
First of all he's not fast enough to be an international winger, especially for a side like Australia.
I don't think he has the game to play fullback at that level either, his kicking game is much too poor. He's a centre or nothing else at this level, and imo he's the 3rd best 12 you have behind O'Connor and Tapuai. What other options do you realistically have at the moment?
At least he straightens the line, tackles very well and is regarded as a leader.

McCabe outran an international winger against Argentina, despite only just returning from injury.

Disagree entirely. Almost ever international team is opting for a harder running 12, rather than a more creative option, and for good reason. How many teams in international rugby that have a creative 12? Nonu? F Steyn? de Villiers? Barritt? Sean Lamont? Roberts? Heck England have even played Manu Tuilagi at 12 recently! There is an odd occasion where international teams play a more creative option at 12 - what I would consider a traditional 'second-five eighth' (e.g. England playing Farrell at 12, Argentina with Fernandez at 12), but this is very rare these days, where previously it was the norm.

Strangely though, both the fly halves who play centre at international aren't very creative at all.

Farrell is probably one of the least creative centres there are, he only plays there because he is a capable tackler. Playing him as a centre lessens England's chances of scoring a try by about 50%.

Argentina meanwhile are the exception to the rule of ball carrying centres. They play two fly halves in Fernández and Bosch at centre. They only play this because they seem to rarely get big monster ball carriers in their backs (young winger Montero who is upcoming is an exception), and the tactic of two fly halves hasn't really worked either, as both those fly halves just aimlessly shovel the ball down the line and don't draw defenders.

 

[Darwin]

Strangely though, both the fly halves who play centre at international aren't very creative at all.

Farrell is probably one of the least creative centres there are, he only plays there because he is a capable tackler. Playing him as a centre lessens England's chances of scoring a try by about 50%.

Argentina meanwhile are the exception to the rule of ball carrying centres. They play two fly halves in Fernández and Bosch at centre. They only play this because they seem to rarely get big monster ball carriers in their backs (young winger Montero who is upcoming is an exception), and the tactic of two fly halves hasn't really worked either, as both those fly halves just aimlessly shovel the ball down the line and don't draw defenders.

Yep I agree with that. I certainly emphasizes my point that creativity at 12 is not a pre-requisite for 12's in today's game.

I remember the Reds winning a grand final and games against the Crusaders and Blues, in 2011 on the back of the Tapuai Faingaa center combination, Tapuai, rarely misses tackles and usually has a higher tackle rate than McCabe, McCabe has the amazing ability, to run the exact same line for 80 minutes....

Last time I checked Australia were playing at International level, not Super Rugby level

I would be interested in what you are basing Tapuai having a higher tackle rate than McCabe, as the stats I have don't suggest this at all.

These are the stats from when Tapuai, McCabe, and Harris played at 12 during in the 2012 Super Rugby season (courtesy of foxsports.com.au):

Tapuai: 559 Minutes, 56 tackles, 7 missed tackles (8.0 tackles per 80 mins, 89% success rate)
Harris: 797 Minutes, 79 tackles, 16 missed tackles (7.9 tackles per 80 mins, 83% success rate)
McCabe: 1015 minutes, 106 tackles, 8 missed tackles (8.4 tackles per 80 mins, 93% success rate)

So while this does show that Tapuai is a good defender, he doesn't have a higher tackle rate than McCabe (indeed he makes slightly less tackles, at a slightly worse percentage!).

 

[madflyhalf]

Tapuai is inexperienced at test level, surely (I hope) he will be tested in november, but for a guy who cumulated 10 Super Rugby matches this season, due to a broken collarbone, would have been a high risk put him there straightly into the Rugby Championship.

Among the good things Deans brought to this team, McCabe is the highlight IMO.

And I was extremely skeptical about his selection at 12, but by now, in the last 2 years no one has done (maybe would have done) better than him!

 

[Gavin]

Pat McCabe is 24(ish) and is the only real Aussie back who can run straight, hard lines (minus Digby). Surely it makes sense to keep him in the side.

 

[Icemn]

Why only 5 :?

 

[welshglory]

McCabe outran an international winger against Argentina, despite only just returning from injury.

Well i did say especially for Australia though didn't i. They tend to have pretty quick wingers, and if they're not that quick then they at least have good footwork.

Anyway it's hardly a ringing endorsement that he outran Camacho. Argentina's wingers are freaking slow, Imhoff is probably the fastest and he's not even that quick. Camacho would be too slow to play on the wing for most countries.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I'd say McCabe's indomitable defense at 12 (with some high tackling thrown in there but that is beside the point) is the number 2 reason why Aus beat SA in the RWC (Pocock being the obvious 1st) and think McCabe brings a physical presence to the Aus backline that none other in Aus could bring. If you don't need him to do what he does best and it's on out wide then skip pass him but the unique (for Aus) elements (and thus diversity) he does bring to the game are very valuable IMO especially as he is probably the only player in Aus in his mold that could play at test level IMO.

 

[psychic duck]

Well i did say especially for Australia though didn't i. They tend to have pretty quick wingers, and if they're not that quick then they at least have good footwork.

Just two that come to mind.

Anyway it's hardly a ringing endorsement that he outran Camacho. Argentina's wingers are freaking slow. Imhoff is probably the fastest and he's not even that quick. Camacho would be too slow to play on the wing for most countries.

How is Imhoff "not that quick"?

Speed is certainly one of his assets, and he is easily Argentina's quickest winger.

How is Camacho "too slow" to play wing for most countries?

Shane Horgan has 69 caps for Ireland and the Lions.

 

[welshglory]

Just two that come to mind.



How is Imhoff "not that quick"?

Speed is certainly one of his assets, and he is easily Argentina's quickest winger.

How is Camacho "too slow" to play wing for most countries?

Shane Horgan has 69 caps for Ireland and the Lions.

Sailor was a beast first of all and Gerrard was a proven top class performer on the wing for the Brumbies, plus he had a great kicking game. McCabe is not an international winger, i don't care how anyone tries to justify it he is not up to it. And again i did say tend to, as in not all of the time. Since 2008 what big Australian wingers can you think of except for Tuqiri? It doesn't really matter anyway because McCabe isn't good enough to push any of the other candidates out.

He is the best option Australia have at 12 at the moment except for Tapuai. Harris isn't good enough imo, he's a good bench option because he covers a lot of positions but he doesn't really have any stand out strengths to his game.

Compared to the likes of Savea, Habana/Pietersen/Mvovo, Ioane, Cuthbert, Shane Williams, Imhoff isn't that quick. I'm talking about raw out and out sprinting pace.

Camacho would be too slow for NZ, SA, Wales, Ireland (They've got fast wings now, Horgan brought physical presence and he was a great player for Leinster. Has Camacho ever stood out for Exeter or Quins? No, i didn't think so), England (Cueto was a great tactical kicker and had lots of experience, probably shouldn't have been selected for his last 2 seasons), France, Samoa and Fiji, even Scotland with Visser nowadays.

Apart from defence, at a push there's no reason why you would pick him above any of those nations wings. You've continuously critiqued Camacho throughout the whole of the RC and a hell of a lot before it so i don't why you're suddenly talking him up.

 

[psychic duck]

Sailor was a beast first of all and Gerrard was a proven top class performer on the wing for the Brumbies, plus he had a great kicking game. McCabe is not an international winger, i don't care how anyone tries to justify it he is not up to it. And again i did say tend to, as in not all of the time. Since 2008 what big Australian wingers can you think of except for Tuqiri? It doesn't really matter anyway because McCabe isn't good enough to push any of the other candidates out.

I didn't say McCabe should be Australia's winger. Just saying that he's not too slow to be. McCabe

Compared to the likes of Savea, Habana/Pietersen/Mvovo, Ioane, Cuthbert, Shane Williams, Imhoff isn't that quick. I'm talking about raw out and out sprinting pace.

You are wrong here. Perhaps you haven't seen much of him but he is as quick, and probably quicker than most of those names. Can't believe you are citing Digby Ioane, Lwazi Mvovo and Shane Williams as players who make him look "not that quick". I reckon you are just saying that as he is an Argentine and used to slower wingers like Agulla and Camacho, but Imhoff is different, he is an athlete.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/W1YpZHKTU48" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

Go to 2:26 on this video, from starting slightly behind Imhoff outpaces the Sharks last defender. Some of the players you mentioned would have been caught.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/vcjuxzK8mRY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen=""></iframe>

Go to 2:54 on this video, Imhoff is chased by Marcel Garvey (a player often touted as being quick) who chases but doesn't close the gap at all.

His out and out pace is certainly an asset, and can hold his own with most of those wingers you mentioned, and would probably be quicker than some of them as well.

Camacho would be too slow for NZ, SA, Wales, Ireland (They've got fast wings now, Horgan brought physical presence and he was a great player for Leinster. Has Camacho ever stood out for Exeter or Quins? No, i didn't think so), England (Cueto was a great tactical kicker and had lots of experience, probably shouldn't have been selected for his last 2 seasons), France, Samoa and Fiji, even Scotland with Visser nowadays.

Apart from defence, at a push there's no reason why you would pick him above any of those nations wings. You've continuously critiqued Camacho throughout the whole of the RC and a hell of a lot before it so i don't why you're suddenly talking him up.

Camacho is not "too slow" for those countries, he's not good enough for them, there's a difference. And I reckon he may have got caps for Wales and possibly Ireland as a reserve for injuries just not been first choice. And certainly could have got in the Scotland team ahead of Lee Jones.

You are also trying to say I have been rubbishing Camacho which is false. I just identified that he has a weakness in terms of pace, line breaking, try scoring ability, and ability to magic something out of nowhere. His try scoring record is poor, even if he has been playing well.

But I have also identified his strengths as well, he is one of the best defenders for his size, is sometimes hard to hold onto and wriggles a few metres here and there (and has been getting involved much better this RC than in last year's RWC). And given him credit that he's performed well this tournament, and has shown his best form in a Pumas shirt and outplayed Agulla who coming into the tournament had come off his best club season and was the more senior winger.

So I haven't rubbished him at all. Just identified an area of his game he isn't so strong in.

 

[welshglory]

I didn't say McCabe should be Australia's winger. Just saying that he's not too slow to be.

Well imo he is too slow to play wing. Citing him outrunning Camacho is not the best example to use to strengthen your case.

You are wrong here. Perhaps you haven't seen much of him but he is as quick, and probably quicker than most of those names. Can't believe you are citing Digby Ioane, Lwazi Mvovo and Shane Williams as players who make him look "not that quick". I reckon you are just saying that as he is an Argentine and used to slower wingers like Agulla and Camacho, but Imhoff is different, he is an athlete.

His out and out pace is certainly an asset, and can hold his own with most of those wingers you mentioned, and would probably be quicker than some of them as well.

Ok Ioane i've found out is actually quite slow, he runs the 100m over 11seconds. Mvovo and Shane both run it around the 10.5-11 sec mark, there was a common misconception that Shane wasn't that quick over long distances but he most definitely was.

I guess it's probably because there hasn't been that much hype around his pace. I'll concede that i'm wrong on this one.

Camacho is not "too slow" for those countries, he's not good enough for them, there's a difference. And I reckon he may have got caps for Wales and possibly Ireland as a reserve for injuries just not been first choice. And certainly could have got in the Scotland team ahead of Lee Jones.

Fair enough but the reason why he's not that good is because he is very slow for an international winger. I'm not sure about Lee Jones, he has a lot of pace and good footwork and he's mostly starting because of injuries, with Lamont fit Camacho would probably make the squad instead of Jones though.

You are also trying to say I have been rubbishing Camacho which is false. I just identified that he has a weakness in terms of pace, line breaking, try scoring ability, and ability to magic something out of nowhere. His try scoring record is poor, even if he has been playing well.

But I have also identified his strengths as well, he is one of the best defenders for his size, is sometimes hard to hold onto and wriggles a few metres here and there (and has been getting involved much better this RC than in last year's RWC). And given him credit that he's performed well this tournament, and has shown his best form in a Pumas shirt and outplayed Agulla who coming into the tournament had come off his best club season and was the more senior winger.

So I haven't rubbished him at all. Just identified an area of his game he isn't so strong in.

Fair enough we both agree though that if Argentina had a better attacking 13 he wouldn't be in the side.

 

[profitius]

What are Australian playing numbers like?

 

[nickdnz]

Well imo he is too slow to play wing. Citing him outrunning Camacho is not the best example to use to strengthen your case.



Ok Ioane i've found out is actually quite slow, he runs the 100m over 11seconds. Mvovo and Shane both run it around the 10.5-11 sec mark, there was a common misconception that Shane wasn't that quick over long distances but he most definitely was.

I guess it's probably because there hasn't been that much hype around his pace. I'll concede that i'm wrong on this one.

Fair enough but the reason why he's not that good is because he is very slow for an international winger. I'm not sure about Lee Jones, he has a lot of pace and good footwork and he's mostly starting because of injuries, with Lamont fit Camacho would probably make the squad instead of Jones though.

Fair enough we both agree though that if Argentina had a better attacking 13 he wouldn't be in the side.

Always skeptical when I hear about these kind of figures. A lot of time and effort has been put into looking at 100m sprint times for rugby players and I can only confirm a handful below 11 seconds that have been properly recorded (and come from reputable sources, not some guys on on a blog or wikipedia. Ngwenya is the only one I've found to get near 10.5, taken from Vainona High School in Zimbabwe. I'm skepticle of even this, as I can't find any original sources http://web.usarugby.org/cgi-bin/viadesto/natteams/mnt/15ProfileDetail.pl?playerId=379. Running low 11's is still very, very quick. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kINJn0Z5Kyk


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtpAlLBwyY8 - Rod Davies - apparently this is 10.81 from certain media sights. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtpAlLBwyY8 He was far and away the 'fastest' player in Super Rugby 2010.

Ugo Monye claims to have clocked an Olympics official time of 10.6 - can't find the time but http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-WMsrutZ5c http://www.spikesmag.com/features/englandrugbyunionwingerugomonyeonathletics.aspx


I can guarentee there would be no rugby player running below 10.8, while playing professional rugby. <!-- centralNotice loads here -->

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

*****ing about a winger taking 11 seconds to run 100 metres... What is this world coming to?

 

[madflyhalf]

If a player is fast, doesn't mean he's quick.
And in this sport is more important to be quicker than faster (also between your ears...).
Being quick allow you to reach your top speed in less time! You don't run 100m too often in a rugby match, you run 10-30m many times, slowing down your pace, than accelerating, maybe just sidestepping before.

Digby Ioane, Shane Williams, Cory Jane, Bryan Habana even James O'Connor when playing 14, are all players who use to beat their direct defender sidestepping him, not outrunning him in long distance.
This is what this sport asks more frequently to the players. It's in the very nature of it!

For example, Drew Mitchell has been preferred to Lachlan Turner because of his quick legs, though I think when on form Turner had a top speed higher than Mitchell's one!

 

[welshglory]

Cool beans i know that rugby isn't about 100m sprint times. I was just using it as a reference point mostly.

I always thought 11 was pretty average, so that's something new to me. I guess i don't know many professional rugby players, shock horror!
There was a guy in my school and he ran the 100 in around 11.2, that was the fastest in the school but in terms of counties etc. it was considered pretty average.

Anyway would most of you agree that Camacho and McCabe aren't quick/fast enough to be good international wingers?

 

[The_Wol]

Should change the topic name to Infinite reasons why McCabe sucks...

 

[Darwin]

Should change the topic name to Infinite reasons why McCabe sucks...

Woldog's "infinite reasons why McCabe sucks":

(1) He doesn't play for the Reds
(2) He doesn't play for the Reds
(3) He doesn't play for the Reds
(4) He doesn't play for the Reds
.....
(infinity) He doesn't play for the Reds

 

[The_Wol]

Woldog's "infinite reasons why McCabe sucks":

(1) He doesn't play for the Reds
(2) He doesn't play for the Reds
(3) He doesn't play for the Reds
(4) He doesn't play for the Reds
.....
(infinity) He doesn't play for the Reds

You missed "I don't like how pale he is" and "His hair always looks weird, is he starting to bald or what?"

 

[Draggs]

What about his choice in facial hair?