A Political Thread

[GarethGriffiths]

What, so we should legalise guns in this country just so I can defend myself? We don't have a gun problem like the US do we?

Thankfully, we are a different society to USA. We are more moderate than they are.

This Forbes article might prove useful reading: https://www.forbes.com/sites/chrisl...-distort-the-gun-control-debate/#676dc2131fad

 

[MarkyH]

No, but good mental health counselling SHOULD mean that they never go to Walmart (or wherever) for the rifle.

I have seen what happens when people are at their lowest mentally, and like you I wish it was taken more seriously. It should not be a Cinderella service.

I agree, I've seen very close people to me suffer massively, and if they had access to a gun I would be scared of what they would do. But they didn't have access, and now they are as recovered and healthy as they will ever be. They didn't hurt anyone when they were at there most dangerous, cause he didn't go and buy a gun.

 

[GarethGriffiths]

Couldn't we all buy guns on the dark web now, and create the scenario you claim? Do you want to buy a gun to defend yourself? Are the Valleys that bad now?

No worse than Coventry.

We could do, but as said it depends upon the psyche of the person buying the gun - which you appear to be conveniently ignoring.

A family friend both has ceremonial swords mounted on his wall, and he is a licensed firearms holder, yet weirdly enough he's not killed anybody with them.

 

[MarkyH]

But if the psyche of the person wants to kill can't get a gun?! I'm not ignoring it

Also, read above. Some people don't get support, some people just snap. I know people who didn't get help and aren't here today. If you make it easy for them to get a gun do you now see how they can kill?

Will better Mental Health support stop killings? Some but not all, the 60 year old church shooter in Texas, Tim McVeigh etc. And some of these people have been to see doctors, they have seen a psychiatrist and they still pass the paperwork and buy a gun

Would removing guns stop killings? No, but it will stop mass shootings from happening.

 

[GarethGriffiths]

I agree, I've seen very close people to me suffer massively, and if they had access to a gun I would be scared of what they would do. But they didn't have access, and now they are as recovered and healthy as they will ever be. They didn't hurt anyone when they were at there most dangerous, cause he didn't go and buy a gun.

I am glad that person is recovered, and I have seen people at their mentally lowest ebb - it is certainly not a pleasant thing.

In an ideal world, we would not need weapons, but my point is why should Person A put down his/her weapon if Person B can then attack him/her. Banning weapons (like banning drugs) will only fuel underground businesses and incidents like this will still happen.

I've seen what can go wrong, with regards to people arming themselves, as a lad at my old school was badly bullied and went into school armed with an axe intent on killing. He was a decent lad, but he'd had enough - now do you blame the lad for being an emotional idiot, do you blame the school for paying lip service to the bullying, do you blame both or neither?

 

[die_mole]

I'd like to point out that buying stuff off on the dark web takes at least two days of planning and that doesn't even include waiting for it to arrive.
Forcing people to buy guns through illegal methods would decrease the likliehood of the mentally ill using them for attacks.
It shouldn't be harder to buy weed than it is to buy a gun.

 

[die_mole]

You can in Japan. Though that seems like the only example, and it's a bit of a special case.

Also, with a truck you can kill 86.

I mean yeah you can kill 18 disabled people who can't fight back.

And I'd you're gonna say we should ban 18-wheelers I'm with you. Let the trains take over.

 

[GarethGriffiths]

But if the psyche of the person wants to kill can't get a gun?! I'm not ignoring it

Also, read above. Some people don't get support, some people just snap. I know people who didn't get help and aren't here today. If you make it easy for them to get a gun do you now see how they can kill?

Will better Mental Health support stop killings? Some but not all, the 60 year old church shooter in Texas, Tim McVeigh etc. And some of these people have been to see doctors, they have seen a psychiatrist and they still pass the paperwork and buy a gun

Would removing guns stop killings? No, but it will stop mass shootings from happening.

Perhaps, although people intent on mass killing will always find other ways of committing atrocities - chemical weapons/poisoning etc.

As I said, ban guns - see what happens. Hopefully I'll be proven wrong, but where there is supply and demand markets...

 

[GarethGriffiths]

I'd like to point out that buying stuff off on the dark web takes at least two days of planning and that doesn't even include waiting for it to arrive.
Forcing people to buy guns through illegal methods would decrease the likliehood of the mentally ill using them for attacks.
It shouldn't be harder to buy weed than it is to buy a gun.

A very good point - if I can buy Weed or worse something like Fentanyl online, then buying a gun is similarly a doddle.

Then again, when certain people scoff at the Dark Web...

 

[die_mole]

Perhaps, although people intent on mass killing will always find other ways of committing atrocities - chemical weapons/poisoning etc.

As I said, ban guns - see what happens. Hopefully I'll be proven wrong, but where there is supply and demand markets...

When you ban guns it effects the supply and demand markets. It affects the price people are willing to sell at since they have to go through more labor (fine... labour) to actually sell the good. People also have to go through more work to actually buy the gun meaning it's even more expensive.

 

[MarkyH]

I've seen what can go wrong, with regards to people arming themselves, as a lad at my old school was badly bullied and went into school armed with an axe intent on killing. He was a decent lad, but he'd had enough - now do you blame the lad for being an emotional idiot, do you blame the school for paying lip service to the bullying, do you blame both or neither?

I despise bullying. I'd hope and agree that schools can do more, thats not the discussion. His brain was in an awful place and I hope he recovered...

However, was he more dangerous with an axe, or if he had an assault rifle, he didn't need to be close to anyone to spray a classroom of people with hundreds of bullets.

YES, we need more support for these people. Much more help. But we have mental health problems in this country, and little in the way of mass shootings. Its something to be discussed, but its the guns that are still killings kids man...

 

[MarkyH]

Perhaps, although people intent on mass killing will always find other ways of committing atrocities - chemical weapons/poisoning etc.

As I said, ban guns - see what happens. Hopefully I'll be proven wrong, but where there is supply and demand markets...

Maybe, but that isn't whats happening anywhere is it? Mass killings are a consistent problem in the US. They use guns as they are easy to get hold of and easy to use. The other ways of committing atrocities you mention are not responsible for the killing of hundreds of school children over the last decade are they.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Still so relevant today.

 

[GarethGriffiths]

Not over the timescale you've mentioned, but who knows which means and methods will be used in the future.

Who is to say that bombs won't be used or something else?

More often than not, gun control advocates cite Australia's gun confiscation program as a model for the United States. But what they leave out is that mass shootings were uncommon in Australia before guns were confiscated so the statistics are largely meaningless.

The truth is far more complicated. Of the major mass shootings in this country in the last decade, a good many were jihadists and the rest were mentally ill young men. Also, the amount of such recorded incidents is comparatively low (thankfully!) in comparison with homicides and other violent crimes.

Since the mass shooting in Newtown, the United States government has not done much to address mental health, but the prevailing view is that policy makers should go straight to grabbing guns. Lone wolf jihadists are a new normal that we have to get used to and can never fully end, but they think they can end gun violence with a government program in defiance of the constitution of the USA? Crossed lines or what?

Evil cannot be regulated away by the government. If it wasn't a gun it would have been a bomb, if not a bomb it could have been a truck etc.

Stop the evil and you are onto something.

 

[Brigantine]

Further on the psychology & why do people even do things like this...

The stratospheric levels of publicity they can reasonably expect to get is no small factor.

That goes for proper terrorism too. Why go to that much trouble to scare the world if people aren't even going to hear about it?

There are strict rules about how you can report on suicides in most countries, for very similar reasons.

I'm not suggesting we stop reporting on these things entirely - public interest trumps the lives that would save by a mile - but don't you think the news networks are going overboard in how much time, detail, speculation and hype they dedicate to terrorist attacks (in the west) and mass murders? It plays right into the hands of the perpetrators, and gives other terrorists & bitter psychopaths motivation.

(that said, terrorism existed before TV)

 

[GarethGriffiths]

Further on the psychology & why do people even do things like this...

The stratospheric levels of publicity they can reasonably expect to get is no small factor.

That goes for proper terrorism too. Why go to that much trouble to scare the world if people aren't even going to hear about it?

There are strict rules about how you can report on suicides in most countries, for very similar reasons.

I'm not suggesting we stop reporting on these things entirely - public interest trumps the lives that would save by a mile - but don't you think the news networks are going overboard in how much time, detail, speculation and hype they dedicate to terrorist attacks (in the west) and mass murders? It plays right into the hands of the perpetrators, and gives other terrorists & bitter psychopaths motivation.

(that said, terrorism existed before TV)

Outstanding comment!

 

[McTallshort]

Not over the timescale you've mentioned, but who knows which means and methods will be used in the future.

Who is to say that bombs won't be used or something else?

More often than not, gun control advocates cite Australia's gun confiscation program as a model for the United States. But what they leave out is that mass shootings were uncommon in Australia before guns were confiscated so the statistics are largely meaningless.

The truth is far more complicated. Of the major mass shootings in this country in the last decade, a good many were jihadists and the rest were mentally ill young men. Also, the amount of such recorded incidents is comparatively low (thankfully!) in comparison with homicides and other violent crimes.

Since the mass shooting in Newtown, the United States government has not done much to address mental health, but the prevailing view is that policy makers should go straight to grabbing guns. Lone wolf jihadists are a new normal that we have to get used to and can never fully end, but they think they can end gun violence with a government program in defiance of the constitution of the USA? Crossed lines or what?

Evil cannot be regulated away by the government. If it wasn't a gun it would have been a bomb, if not a bomb it could have been a truck etc.

Stop the evil and you are onto something.

They had a mass shooting every year up until Port Arthur and have not had one since. I really wish you research some of this stuff.

Buying guns on the dark web? Are you ******* serious. The only people who can supply illigel guns are organised crime gangs and they dont give them to nerds or stupid teenagers on a killing spree because those kind of people tend to tell the police where they got them from when they get caught.

In America you can got into Asda and buy an AR 15 before you can buy a beer. You can then take that rifle and shoot people you dont like. Thats not ideal in a nation with high levels of mental illness and pescription anti depressents.

 

[die_mole]

They had a mass shooting every year up until Port Arthur and have not had one since. I really wish you research some of this stuff.

Buying guns on the dark web? Are you ******* serious. The only people who can supply illigel guns are organised crime gangs and they dont give them to nerds or stupid teenagers on a killing spree because those kind of people tend to tell the police where they got them from when they get caught.

In America you can got into Asda and buy an AR 15 before you can buy a beer. You can then take that rifle and shoot people you dont like. Thats not ideal in a nation with high levels of mental illness and pescription anti depressents.

You can buy guns on the dark web. I'd post screen shots but I figured that would be frowned upon.

You are correct about how easy it is to get guns here though.

 

[McTallshort]

You can buy guns on the dark web. I'd post screen shots but I figured that would be frowned upon.

You are correct about how easy it is to get guns here though.

If you live in the UK you can only get an illigal gun from the criminal underworld and they are very wary of who they sell them too.

 

[die_mole]

If you live in the UK you can only get an illigal gun from the criminal underworld and they are very wary of who they sell them too.

I guess that's another benefit of gun regulation, less people who are able to sell guns illegally.