A Political Thread

[Unol Daleithiau]

Irony... Go back 1 page and just look carefully. As I was saying, don't you just love it when Brexiters falsely accuse others of what they are actually guilty of themselves? I mean look REALLY hard, you might spot it as the comment immediately after your lengthy post...

Also note to mods, the quoting system seems to have an issue in quote chains. I tried to reply to this comment but it quoted the comment before this that I initially replied to.

You never quoted me anywhere in the thread, before now. What are you going on about?

 

[Unol Daleithiau]

Actually he wrote a very lengthy reply that you chose to ignore.

Where? He literally never directed anything towards me. I just looked back to check.

 

[Unol Daleithiau]

"The people have spoken" you mean a tiny majority of those who voted have spoken? That is very different to the people as a whole have spoken and is certainly different to claiming the entire country should now go for the hardest Brexit it can on the basis of a 2% swing.

1) We already control our borders to a large degree. Whilst the EU may have prevented border control with other EU members, it did nothing to prevent them with countries outside the EU. Did this stop us taking people in? Nope. Even the borders we could control we still allowed many immigrants in. Why do you think this will change for the EU?

2) We already make our own laws, many EU laws we adopted were done with our support (until very recently there had to be unanimous approval for a law to pass), we already have plenty of freedom setting our own taxes and the UK is a less attractive trading bloc than the EU. Here's the thing, the larger your market is, the more bargaining power you have over the other party. The UK will have less economic clout than the EU. Already the US has said they are going to try to exploit the UK with one of Trump's key advisers saying the UK will be desperate for any trade so the USA should immediately jump in and set up a completely unfavourable trade deal for the UK. May and her ilk will prance around like it is a great success when in reality it will be worse than what we originally had. You don't think this trend is going to repeat elsewhere with other countries seeing a UK desperate for trade deals ASAP?

3) When Britain joined in 1973, Britain also contributed to a larger share of the world economy than it does now. It's basic economics, it is much much easier to expand as china has done than to keep finding new growth as an already developed nation, or do you somehow think we are supposed to compete with the level of growth China has going from a rural economy to an industrial and service one?

We sell more to the EU than the rest of the world... You know Switzerland has over 100 bilateral agreements hammered out over decades in its relations with the EU? It is also obliged to adopt certain EU rules whilst having no say in them in order to have the access it does? Britain will be no different.

Everyone is aware the EU legislates, if anything the ignorance is on the Brexit side thinking the EU is this monolithic entity riding roughshod over the wishes of the poor nations that make it up, when your examples highlight exactly why this is complete crap. Single nations can derail massive processes because the individual nations have that much power in the EU, yet you turn around and make out somehow we are being dictated to by Brussels. How the hell do you combine those contradictory views together? This also ignores that the EU Parliament is elected by the people, the EU Council is made up of the elected representatives of each nation, the EU Commission has a member from each state and until very recently no law could pass without unanimous consent from all countries. All EU laws must also be ratified by national Parliaments. But nope, so much easier to claim we are being dictated to by unelected Brussels bureaucrats. How about we just send the Brexit bill started by a PM nobody chose to the 2nd house that is entirely unelected to be signed off by the Queen and show the world how we will not tolerate unelected people in governments!

The majority of people that care, obviously. If you care, you would have voted. Also, 51.89 > 48.11 regardless.

1) I truly believe that it will allow us to be more selective, in who we allow in. Perhaps more educated Americans and Canadians rather than an uneducated Pole living off of benefits. Honestly, our immigration policy needs to be reviewed in whole. The country has changed massively, for the worst, even in my young (27 year) lifetime.

2) Non-EU countries like Norway, Iceland and Switzerland have their own trade agreements and are doing just fine. We will be able to secure new trade deals without seeking the consensus of 28 quarrelling countries, that is a positive regardless of your spin. London would also save billions of pounds in annual EU contributions. A weaker pound will make our exports more competitive. Selling goods at this cheaper rate will increase the profit margins, which will help revive our industries. With exports more competitive, we may actually decrease our deficit.

3) We do not have to compete with China. Apples and oranges entirely.

Also, LEARN TO QUOTE ME SO THAT I KNOW THAT YOU ARE RESPONDING TO ME.

 

[ncurd]

So you're complaining you couldnt be bothered to read the thread.......that's your fault he's under no obligation to quote you....

 

[ncurd]

Anyway

1) In my lifetime of 32 years the only bit where the country has got 'worse' was mainly due to the global financial crisis of 2008. But since you bought it up how has this country got demonstrably worse? What you say is rhetoric with little evidence to back it up.

As to Poles living on benefits statistics shows EU migrants contribute more to the tax coffers than they take out. We also have the ability to deport any EU migrants who can not prove they have a way of sustaining themselves (bet you didn't know that one or that people are actually employed to do so). This goverment has had 7 years to bring down RoW migration and theyve barely touched it....know why? Because migration is good for the economy. Even just last year Brexit minister David Davis was saying to a commons select committee that because of Brexit that.migration have to up rather than down.

2) Norway has access to the EEA and in return they allow the freedom of.movement. as do Switzerland(who agreed last December to that deal) and Iceland. Which kind of destroys your argument about selecting migrants and having their kind of deals.

On weak pound that doesn't work as simply as that. If you import components or parts to what you are selling (hugely important in things like manufacturing) the weak pound means those things cost more. In return you make less profit and that means you may you make as much even if you sold more like. It's a fine turned balance most companies would prefer a stronger buying power than selling.

Also things like fuel and import of food (which we heavilly rely on) drive up the cost of those items in inflation. How often do you and your mates get an above inflation pay rise? So if inflotions goes.up because the cost of food goes up it doesn't matter if we are doing well as nation economically you can only afford to buy less.

I should note the above inflation pay rise is one things that has happened less since the 2008 financial crisis as even companies doing well do it less often. Which is why the.country has got 'worse' since.




So instead of rhetoric maybe post some detail next time.

 

[Gavin]

A draft of Labour's general election manifesto has been leaked, including plans to nationalise parts of the energy industry and scrap tuition fees.

The BBC has seen a copy of the document, which is due to be formally signed off on Thursday.

It contains policies on nationalising railways and renewing the Trident weapons system and suggests Labour will not leave the EU without a deal.

Labour would not comment on the leak but the Tories called it "a shambles".

According to the draft, Labour would:

• Spend an extra £8bn on social care over the next Parliament
• Refuse to make "false promises" on immigration
• Stress that any leader should be "extremely cautious" about using Trident nuclear weapons, which leader Jeremy Corbyn opposes
• Strengthen trade union rights - including increased unionisation across the workforce and repealing last year's Trade Union Act
• Scrap the public sector pay cap and reintroduce national pay bargaining
• Ban so-called "zero hours" contracts
• Increase income tax for the highest-earning 5% to raise an extra £6bn for the NHS
• Build at least 100,000 council and housing association houses a year
• Reserve 4,000 homes for rough sleepers

On energy, Labour would have at least one publicly-owned supplier in every region of the country, with the government controlling the transmission and distribution grids.

First it would introduce an "immediate emergency price cap" of £1,000 a year.

The draft manifesto also promises to ban fracking and cut the voting age to 16.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39877439

Looks good to me.

 

[ncurd]

Whoever leaked it needs shooting just because of sheer incompetency of doing so.

I imagine a lot of the Labour rhetoric appeals to voters (it certainly does to me to the extent I'd consider voting Labour if I lived in place they could win against the Lib Dems). Problem is their message isn't getting out that well and it only take one Diane Abbott interview to put it all back to square one. If they had some competent leaders at the top I imagine they'd be doing pretty well with this kind of manifesto (some will always disagree). I'm alway wary about unions as are most however they have had the ability to grind the nations to a halt previously usually just to feed their own ego's. They certainly have a place and are important in resolving labour disputes I just wonder if they need to reform a bit.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

At least there is a clear choice now between the socialist agenda offered by Corbyn and what May is offering.

 

[ncurd]

At least there is a clear choice now between the socialist agenda offered by Corbyn and what May is offering.

Has May actually offered anything of note yet?

I know this is a can of worms but what is wrong with socialism? I think we can all agree the NHS is a great thing and is pure socialism. Remember socialism is not communism despite what people want you to think. Same as the idiots of somehow equate capitalism with fascism...

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Where? He literally never directed anything towards me. I just looked back to check.

You're an idiot... Seriously.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Has May actually offered anything of note yet?

I know this is a can of worms but what is wrong with socialism? I think we can all agree the NHS is a great thing and is pure socialism. Remember socialism is not communism despite what people want you to think. Same as the idiots of somehow equate capitalism with fascism...

Socialism sounds great on paper, but it's the concept behind it that I don't buy. We are not homogenous and of equal talent; people are greedy/self absorbed at heart and care predominantly for themselves and those closest to them. They want to be rewarded for their talent and not have to pay most of it to a Socialist Government for the betterment of society. Trying to force a system that tries to equalize society to the extent Corbyn envisions is just delusional IMO. Plus there's the big thing - how do you keep paying for what he and the socialists offer? It's the age old argument of how big you want the state to be and to keep intervening in people's lives.

I am not totally against every socialist policy, but it must be within a capitalist system. Not what Corbyn and McDonnell are offering. We're not talking about communism (Leninism/Stalinism), but the next worst thing i.e. trying to democratise the very concepts of Marxism. And you can't have a truly socialist country unless the whole world is also socialist, in otherwords the end of the the capitalist system.

 

[ncurd]

Socialism sounds great on paper, but it's the concept behind it that I don't buy. We are not homogenous and of equal talent; people are greedy/self absorbed at heart and care predominantly for themselves and those closest to them. They want to be rewarded for their talent and not have to pay most of it to a Socialist Government for the betterment of society. Trying to force a system that tries to equalize society to the extent Corbyn envisions is just delusional IMO. Plus there's the big thing - how do you keep paying for what he and the socialists offer? It's the age old argument of how big you want the state to be and to keep intervening in people's lives.

Which parts of the leaked manifesto are about complete equalisation of what one can achive? How many of us will a railway company for instance?

I agree people need to feel rewarded for their hard work or at in actual reality feel their hard work can lead them to a better lifestyle if you don't give people something to aim at they won't strive towards anything. However a false conceit a lot of people have is that they are 'winners' or at least one day will be 'winners' the reality is in the grand scheme of this country most of us are the losers. I agree most people are incredibly self centred as well but that doesn't mean we should accept a government that preys upon the prejudices. I don't an equal society but I want society that looks after those who are unable to help themselves through their socio-economical status. They'll always be struggling but at least lets not make them needlessly suffer. I really dislike the attitude we have thinking everyone on benefits are scroungers and what not and the rhetoric we are fed so we stop helping them. Most people I know in those situations need the help. I mean at the end of the day I'm a centrist (left of)

I am not totally against every socialist policy, but it must be within a capitalist system.

On this we agree entirely but only within markets with actual competition. The NHS should not be about those who do the minimal amount of work to cover a service for the greatest profit (which is how its working) it should be about a decent level of service with the correct equipment out carry out that job. In railways we are just auctioning out contracts which are usually won by foreign governments same with energy. In transport in general bus services are only run on route that make 'profit' not routes people actually need to move around. One of the many reasons why I've never been able to build up a deposit to buy a house is because where my parents lived did not have a bus service to town where I got my first post-uni job. In turn I was already sacrificing a chunk of my salary to monthly rent rather than putting towards a deposit like alot of people do these days whilst living at home. Its not the only reason but an unprofitable bus route is where it partially started.

However in turn you need the capitalist side take for example the defence industry we have companies who for profit design leading edge equipment for our military forces to use. The MOD gives details of a problem they'd like to solve and companies go off to create a solution and the contract which cover that problem in the best way for the best price wins. That's proper competition but the actually nitty griity of defence the actual personnel and training of them that's done by the government.

My point is does the capitalist model work on the NHS, Energy and Transport.

 

[Which Tyler]

 

[The Jones Boy]

Whoever leaked it needs shooting just because of sheer incompetency of doing so.

What makes you suggest it was incompetence?

This was done by design.

The Blairites (for want of a better word) have been tearing Labour apart for years now. They have been attacking the democratically elected labour leadership since Corbyn was voted in as leader.
This is the single reason that labour cannot get any traction.
If a party 'looks' disunited' the papers/media will feed on it, amplify and encourage it, and they may as well be dog tucker.
The Blairites are incredibly short sighted.
If you want to tear a political party apart, do it when in power, not before.
The blame for the sad state the Labour party finds itself in lays squarely and firmly on the shoulders of the centre right, Tory light MP's who would rather see the party implode than work together to win an election.
We have probably all had bosses we don't like at some time in our career, bosses we didn't agree with... did we throw the baby out with the bathwater? Or did we we angle to get a promotion, or another job?
The membership voted overwhelmingly for Corbyn, twice.
The MP's have a duty to back the leader by adhering to the mandate of the membership.
At no time have the Blairites complied with this position.
Corbyn has been very fair in dealing with them.
Teresa May in reverse circumstances would have been looking to have them expelled.

 

[The Jones Boy]

My point is does the capitalist model work on the NHS, Energy and Transport.

It's a valid point.
I have left leaning tendencies, I've taken medication for them, tried to burn them out with hot pokers, and meditated (mostly on steak and marinated ribs) about it and decided there is a place for them after all and it's in regulation.
Some parts of the economy don't need much regulation but the three key areas you highlight defintely do. The other one I would add, perhaps controversially, is housing.
Capitalism does work well when it goes hand in glove with benign protective regulation.
There is no place for greed under any system.
Unbridled avarice has served to create a vast division between the haves, and the have nots.

 

[McTallshort]

The majority of people that care, obviously. If you care, you would have voted. Also, 51.89 > 48.11 regardless.

1) I truly believe that it will allow us to be more selective, in who we allow in. Perhaps more educated Americans and Canadians rather than an uneducated Pole living off of benefits. Honestly, our immigration policy needs to be reviewed in whole. The country has changed massively, for the worst, even in my young (27 year) lifetime.

2) Non-EU countries like Norway, Iceland and Switzerland have their own trade agreements and are doing just fine. We will be able to secure new trade deals without seeking the consensus of 28 quarrelling countries, that is a positive regardless of your spin. London would also save billions of pounds in annual EU contributions. A weaker pound will make our exports more competitive. Selling goods at this cheaper rate will increase the profit margins, which will help revive our industries. With exports more competitive, we may actually decrease our deficit.

3) We do not have to compete with China. Apples and oranges entirely.

Also, LEARN TO QUOTE ME SO THAT I KNOW THAT YOU ARE RESPONDING TO ME.

Stupid comment.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

The majority of people that care, obviously. If you care, you would have voted. Also, 51.89 > 48.11 regardless.

1) I truly believe that it will allow us to be more selective, in who we allow in. Perhaps more educated Americans and Canadians rather than an uneducated Pole living off of benefits. Honestly, our immigration policy needs to be reviewed in whole. The country has changed massively, for the worst, even in my young (27 year) lifetime.

2) Non-EU countries like Norway, Iceland and Switzerland have their own trade agreements and are doing just fine. We will be able to secure new trade deals without seeking the consensus of 28 quarrelling countries, that is a positive regardless of your spin. London would also save billions of pounds in annual EU contributions. A weaker pound will make our exports more competitive. Selling goods at this cheaper rate will increase the profit margins, which will help revive our industries. With exports more competitive, we may actually decrease our deficit.

3) We do not have to compete with China. Apples and oranges entirely.

Also, LEARN TO QUOTE ME SO THAT I KNOW THAT YOU ARE RESPONDING TO ME.

All expletives that follow are 100% necessary.

I did vote... The small majority of voters is not "the overwhelming view of the British people".

1) No it won't, we are already perfectly capable of being selective for countries outside the EU but aren't. You think the Poles live off benefits? You ******* idiot... Poles are some of the hardest working people in the country and, on average, immigrants to this country are LESS likely to be on benefits than the natives, that includes if you look exclusively at EU immigrants. The whole idea of benefit tourism is Daily Mail bullshit, here's some news for you, our benefits really aren't that generous at all. Other European nations have far more generous benefits that area easier to get than ours.

2) Norway and Switzerland need to abide by EU regulations they have no say in writing, need to abide by EU immigration agreements and basically need to do as the EU says to get those trade agreements. Do you have ANY idea how long it will take to get new trade agreements? Do you have ANY idea how our bargaining power has dropped massively as a result of leaving? You are the one who is putting spin on it because at no point have any Brexiters been able to answer this. Go on, how long do you think it would take to hammer out comprehensive trade agreements with all the major economies of the world that are equal or better than the ones we had in the EU? What do you think we will be doing in the mean time? Where will we suddenly find all these qualified negotiators? Come on, less of this pie in the sky bullshit, give some actual answers. I'm tired of this country being pulled in a direction by people who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

3) Are you ******* stupid? I mean seriously? Firstly of course we have to compete with bloody China! Secondly you claimed the EU makes up less of the world economy now than it did in the past and then you simply dismiss the explanation as "apples and oranges". Let me put this in the simplest possible terms for you: The EU makes up a smaller portion of the global economy because ALL developed nations make up a smaller share now than they did 40 years ago! This is because the developing world i growing faster because it is easier to grow from an agricultural economy to a manufacturing and services economy than it is for an economy that is already advanced to continue to expand, the concept of it's easier to copy and catch up than to pioneer and lead. Britain also makes up a smaller share for exactly the same reason.

People like you are why I'm so angry about Brexit, we are being led to a potentially serious problem by people who are completely clueless and whose mental comprehension doesn't extend beyond small minded nationalism. If nothing else for **** sake READ about stuff before you spout drivel. And also LEARN TO READ REGARDLESS OF QUOTING BEFORE DRIBBLING ABOUT HOW YOU DIDN'T GET A RESPONSE WHEN IT WAS LITERALLY RIGHT UNDER YOUR ******* POST! Y

Hell you even lied about going back and checking when it was clear you didn't. Why even bother with such a bare faced lie?

 

[Unol Daleithiau]

You're an idiot... Seriously.

How am I an idiot? You can call me lazy, sure.

 

[Unol Daleithiau]

All expletives that follow are 100% necessary.

I did vote... The small majority of voters is not "the overwhelming view of the British people".

1) No it won't, we are already perfectly capable of being selective for countries outside the EU but aren't. You think the Poles live off benefits? You ******* idiot... Poles are some of the hardest working people in the country and, on average, immigrants to this country are LESS likely to be on benefits than the natives, that includes if you look exclusively at EU immigrants. The whole idea of benefit tourism is Daily Mail bullshit, here's some news for you, our benefits really aren't that generous at all. Other European nations have far more generous benefits that area easier to get than ours.

2) Norway and Switzerland need to abide by EU regulations they have no say in writing, need to abide by EU immigration agreements and basically need to do as the EU says to get those trade agreements. Do you have ANY idea how long it will take to get new trade agreements? Do you have ANY idea how our bargaining power has dropped massively as a result of leaving? You are the one who is putting spin on it because at no point have any Brexiters been able to answer this. Go on, how long do you think it would take to hammer out comprehensive trade agreements with all the major economies of the world that are equal or better than the ones we had in the EU? What do you think we will be doing in the mean time? Where will we suddenly find all these qualified negotiators? Come on, less of this pie in the sky bullshit, give some actual answers. I'm tired of this country being pulled in a direction by people who have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

3) Are you ******* stupid? I mean seriously? Firstly of course we have to compete with bloody China! Secondly you claimed the EU makes up less of the world economy now than it did in the past and then you simply dismiss the explanation as "apples and oranges". Let me put this in the simplest possible terms for you: The EU makes up a smaller portion of the global economy because ALL developed nations make up a smaller share now than they did 40 years ago! This is because the developing world i growing faster because it is easier to grow from an agricultural economy to a manufacturing and services economy than it is for an economy that is already advanced to continue to expand, the concept of it's easier to copy and catch up than to pioneer and lead. Britain also makes up a smaller share for exactly the same reason.

People like you are why I'm so angry about Brexit, we are being led to a potentially serious problem by people who are completely clueless and whose mental comprehension doesn't extend beyond small minded nationalism. If nothing else for **** sake READ about stuff before you spout drivel. And also LEARN TO READ REGARDLESS OF QUOTING BEFORE DRIBBLING ABOUT HOW YOU DIDN'T GET A RESPONSE WHEN IT WAS LITERALLY RIGHT UNDER YOUR ******* POST! Y

Hell you even lied about going back and checking when it was clear you didn't. Why even bother with such a bare faced lie?

When did I use the word "overwhelming". I said majority, those are two different words. I'll reply to the rest of your insanity this weekend.

"Hell you even lied about going back and checking when it was clear you didn't. Why even bother with such a bare faced lie?

How did I lie about it? I went back and read through the posts until I saw it. I have a life, I cannot sift through an internet forum all day.

 

[ncurd]

Man great posts again really digging deep into the heart of the conversation.