Cueto: salary cap is being ignored

[Peat]

Jesus Tony, seriously, read it closer. To say what the others are saying in a different way -

This is the relevant PRL official saying it has been happening. Not RFU. PRL.

 

[Tony Manx]

Then I cannot explain any clearer....Ok, it is the PRL guy not an RFU but the exact same logic applies.................too many people would know of it, were it true, for it to remain "secret" or what size of breach was discovered and what if any sanctions (and he does not admit to any being raised) were levied and to whom any fines were paid without it all becoming public......remember the old saying that a secret shared with one or more people rarely stays a secret!!

Let him come back and say which clubs were caught, the size of the breaches, the sanctions incurred and we will have the evidence that would convince me and everyone else that breaches have been discovered and that breaches have, indeed, occurred and I will be the first to apologise to you and everyone else in rugby for my apparent scepticism.....I just would like to see some real hard proven evidence not crass statements, innuendo or gossip!

 

[j'nuh]

Then I cannot explain any clearer....Ok, it is the PRL guy not an RFU but the exact same logic applies.................too many people would know of it, were it true, for it to remain "secret" or what size of breach was discovered and what if any sanctions (and he does not admit to any being raised) were levied and to who any fines were paid without it all becoming public......remember the old saying that a secret shared with one or more people rarely stays a secret!!

Let him come back and say which clubs were caught, the size of the breaches, the sanctions incurred and we will have the evidence that would convince me and everyone else that breaches have been discovered and that breaches have, indeed, occurred and I will be the first to apologise to you and everyone else in rugby for my apparent scepticism.....I just would like to see some real hard proven evidence not crass statements, innuendo or gossip!

I was googling, and I found this article, which you posted to TRF just last year!

http://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read/s96.htm?98,13168969

Relevant: "Rogers is the only person outside of the interested parties that knows what Ashton will be paid."
"Rogers reveals some clubs have breached the salary cap in the past and received fines, but he can't reveal who and how much they were fined."

That's the point of the new rules. Those with the knowledge of who broke the cap, weren't allowed to tell anyone. Now they can.

 

[Tony Manx]

I was googling, and I found this article, which you posted to TRF just last year!

http://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read/s96.htm?98,13168969

Relevant: "Rogers is the only person outside of the interested parties that knows what Ashton will be paid."
"Rogers reveals some clubs have breached the salary cap in the past and received fines, but he can't reveal who and how much they were fined."

That's the point of the new rules. Those with the knowledge of who broke the cap, weren't allowed to tell anyone. Now they can.

I would refer you to the following earlier in this thread..................

Super post and should make everyone think as it so well reasoned.....certainly made me think!! You are right, of course, without the facts we can only guess and sometimes let the "jealousy" factor intrude into those thoughts!!

Give me proven categorical evidence to confirm what I may believe and I would agree readily that indeed there have been breaches but nothing so far really has................

 

[ratsapprentice]

So you're suggesting the PRL is lying about there being 3 previous breaches of the salary cap to justify changing their own rules?

 

[Tony Manx]

So you're suggesting the PRL is lying about there being 3 previous breaches of the salary cap to justify changing their own rules?

What more can I say.........

Give me proven categorical evidence to confirm what I may believe and I would agree readily that indeed there have been breaches but nothing so far really has................

.........so I won't say any more!

 

[ratsapprentice]

That doesn't answer my question.

Unless you are a complete conspiracy nutcase then I think you would believe the PRL when they say there have been breaches.
It is completely unnecessary for them to justify it; given the public questioning of the legitimacy of the cap.

 

[Peat]

If you don't believe them saying there have been 3 breaches, why would you suddenly believe them if they gave more details? Either they're lying or they're not.

 

[Prestwick]

Look, excuse me if I'm putting words in your mouth, Tony but are you saying that yes have been breaches of the salary cap and PRL are correct in what they say but it is disingenuous to start accusing random sides without evidence of proof?

I'm sorry but "they've got a squad of 40 players" or "its common knowledge.." or even "they simply can't stay in the salary cap with that amount" is not conclusive proof that such and such a club is breaking the cap.

Also, I'll point out that if we're suspicious of Edward Griffiths (and thats fair enough) coming out saying Saracens are within the cap, I'd also be suspicious of Ryan Walkinshaw suddenly windmilling in like teachers pet in what I would suspect is a classic example of deception via distraction.

I'll be the first to shake my head in disappointment if Saracens are the first to get done for breaking the cap but again, I'm reserving judgement for the facts ​first.

 

[Feicarsinn]

Give me a moment, I'm going to debunk a few of these points.


- Squad size. Yes, Saracens have one of the bigger squads of the Premiership. No, it isn't Toulon-lite. Look, I could go through all the academy players we've churned out that have been in the squad at one time or another, the fact that about a quarter of the squad are a combination of young academy graduates and players promoted from the Championship and lower and near enough another quarter are overseas youngsters from Scotland, New Zealand and *sigh* yes South Africa. It frankly doesn't make sense that you'd suddenly give these guys 50-100% pay bumps simply because they're moving to the UK. They're on reasonable salaries. The point is that the years of extravagant spending ended with the opening of Allianz Park. The party is over and now Saracens needs to turn a profit. Again, this isn't Toulon and thats never going to happen salary cap or no. With the large number of young talent in their senior squad, they're able to accomodate enough big names and finance new big names through the retirement and sale of other players to make room within the cap. I could also point to the fact that the changed, stable culture at Saracens was a big factor in why players choose Saracens over bigger pay packets in France. The fact that the club is family friendly for players, that it runs a successful work experience program to give players skills to survive if (god forbid) injury cuts their career short and the trips it takes the squad on. Its this and more which makes the club such an attractive proposition for players and adds value to what usually is a modest pay package.

Maybe I'm looking at this from a slightly biased perspective, but isn't that a remarkably small fraction of the squad to come out of the academy? Sorry for veering a bit off topic, but that figure was fairly striking for me.

 

[Tony Manx]

................ I'm reserving judgement for the facts ​first.

I do not intend to go around in more circles any more on this but you have basically hit the nail on the head with that comment, Prestwick, which, to be honest, I believe I have made very clear in my posts.

Just because a representative of an organisation that has contracted (see Smartcookies post on that thread) only to discuss with/give their views on the ERC's negotiations with the TV companies about the televising of European games but then goes and negotiates its own television deal with BT, so I need some proof that facts stated by that same body which facts, I believe, would be almost impossible to keep out of the public domain, are true!

It may well be those facts really are true, I do not know, but it is not to me proven sufficently. They may very well not be lying, and I sincerely trust that they are not, but I, of one, do not believe them without a lot more information being made public rather than just this vague and bare statement of there having been "three breaches".

 

[TRF_Olyy]

This salary cap business has nothing to do with their deals with the ERC.
You say you want facts? Well how about the fact that the guy in charge of Salary caps has said there have been breaches.
It's been shown in the past (by a link posted by yourself) they couldn't, under old rules, publicise the clubs that breached. They're changing this up, now.
I don't understand how they can make it any more clearer,following current guidelines. The guy who has said there are breaches is the most senior person who could possibly have a say on the matter. There is no one else with more authority on salary caps than him.

 

[Peat]

Maybe I'm looking at this from a slightly biased perspective, but isn't that a remarkably small fraction of the squad to come out of the academy? Sorry for veering a bit off topic, but that figure was fairly striking for me.

Believe he was talking about recent academy graduates only (i.e. still a little underpaid) not all academy graduates. Now, I'm a bit too lazy to go through all the numbers, but having somewhere between 8 and 12 recent academy graduates in the first team squad seems par for England. Leicester are badly down with about 4, give or take, while Exeter have about 8 I'm sure of and another 6 or so that look like it but I'm not sure. Quins and Glaws both have 11 (depending on how recent Savage was). So Sarries' 8 is perfectly respectable by English standards. The fact there doesn't appear to be any senior academy graduates there is a little poor, but then, that's not unusual over here. Take Glaws - I'd list them as 14 academy graduates total. I'm not sure why, but clubs just don't seem to be holding onto their talent here. Quins is the notable exception out of those I could be bothered to count properly with a whopping 20 members of their 34 man squad being Quins academy graduates. That's without counting Tom Casson, which I probably should.

HOWEVER - if Saracens' number of recent academy graduates is not particularly unusual, it is no longer such a reason for having such a big squad - 42 at my count, although I was using wikipedia so might be out; Exeter and Wasps are the only clubs with bigger squads. Wasps already contains an injury dispensation signing and at least one guy on a season long loan, so their 43 is kinda really 41 - still incredibly high for the club at present. I think Exeter is 49, which is kinda bonkers, even if some of them are blatantly going to be off on loan/never playing.

By my count, Saracens' number of cheap recruits - academy, championship, erse end of abroad - is 17. That includes a couple of guys who maybe shouldn't be in there - Mako Vunipola counts as signed from Championship, but he was a first team and England U20 regular there, so just how cheap he was, can't be sure. Glaws with their squad of 37 also have 17 (18 if I count Savage as recent graduate). Again, there's a couple of guys who maybe shouldn't be there, but there we go. It evens out.

What Saracens are doing in terms of using the academy, signings from below and abroad, is what pretty much every English club is doing. When they have one of the biggest squads and one of the most talented squads simultaneously it alone does not explain how it all works. The fact that Saracens have a good atmosphere and a good record of getting points and medals for players helps. Players will take paycuts for that. The trips it takes the squad on arguably count as holiday - which does come under the cap.

Again, no hard facts. Not even soft facts. Just a little look at why everybody's so bloody suspicious of them.

 

[j'nuh]

HOWEVER - if Saracens' number of recent academy graduates is not particularly unusual, it is no longer such a reason for having such a big squad - 42 at my count, although I was using wikipedia so might be out; Exeter and Wasps are the only clubs with bigger squads. Wasps already contains an injury dispensation signing and at least one guy on a season long loan, so their 43 is kinda really 41 - still incredibly high for the club at present. I think Exeter is 49, which is kinda bonkers, even if some of them are blatantly going to be off on loan/never playing.

Exeter don't really have that big a squad, it's just that the Exe home page for some reason lists the main squad profiles and senior academy profiles together. Other teams would have bigger squads if you combined their first team with their senior academy (eg Gloucester would have 52). As for Exeter's real squad size for the main squad... it's hard to tell who is in the academy and who isn't. But there are 10 players who are born in 1993 or later, and another 5 who are born in 1991 or 1992, so the real squad should be substantially lower than 49 players...

Also, the Sarries squad is actually 40 players as listed on their home page. Auterac and Spencer are actually a part of their academy.

 

[Peat]

Wellp, that explains that. And fair enough, 40 it is - although maybe out of date? Don't think Itoje appears in the academy, that seems an oversight. God knows... Leicester are bigger then by 1.

I think its fair to say Tigers and Saracens have the two dodgiest looking squads there.

 

[eot345]

Quins have issues more than just up front. As noted, Casson is not a top 4 centre. Tom Williams is not a top 4 winger. And most crucially, Nick Evans is no longer a magician.

I think billy Vunipola would have been a great signinging for quins, such a shame he went to saracens. The signing of a Bruising TH and Lock would have been great to, I think with this would have been far more beneficial for them then signing Sackey and Kennedy and the ridiculous Nick Evans Salary!