Cueto: salary cap is being ignored

[ratsapprentice]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...clubs-warned-to-expect-points-deductions.html

 

[j'nuh]

Quins have issues more than just up front. As noted, Casson is not a top 4 centre. Tom Williams is not a top 4 winger. And most crucially, Nick Evans is no longer a magician.

I seriously don't know what the Quins were thinking when they re-signed Nev, probably as a marquee player, reportedly on £330k(?), at the age of 32 (he was 32 then, 33 now) on a three year contract.

His form is already down, and he's still got 2 and three-quarters seasons to go! Who knows if he'll ever recover? Even if he does, will his body hold up 'til the age of 36?

I mean, don't get me wrong, he's been a classy player for Quins.

 

[Patchey]

To be honest if we get one more year of brilliance from him it'll be worth the money. I haven't given up hope on a return to form but I think we're more likely to see him slowly fade away over the next few years with Botica taking his place.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I seriously don't know what the Quins were thinking when they re-signed Nev, probably as a marquee player, reportedly on £330k(?), at the age of 32 (he was 32 then, 33 now) on a three year contract.

His form is already down, and he's still got 2 and three-quarters seasons to go! Who knows if he'll ever recover? Even if he does, will his body hold up 'til the age of 36?

I mean, don't get me wrong, he's been a classy player for Quins.

i thought within that 3 years he wanted to move into coaching, so he didn't think he'd be playing at the top level for all those years. i guess in a similar way to Mike Catt. He was still playing some great rugby before he finally retired.

 

[Prestwick]

The thing about the Saracens that further surprises me is that they're able to have the strongest and deepest squad, whilst being based in NW London? Really?

Normally, wages in London (and the surrounding areas) are considerably higher than in places like Northampton, because the cost of living is so high. Accommodation in London is ridiculously expensive compared to every other city involved in Premiership rugby. You burn through your salary a lot faster in London. Speaking purely from a financial perspective, if you want to match the quality of life you'd have in Gloucester/Northampton/Leicester whilst in London, you'd have to be paid considerably more.

So you'd think that either Saracens pay their players more than other clubs and struggle to match others' depth, or that they pay the same amount as other clubs and struggle to entice players.

To compare, Harlequins, also based on the outskirts of London, have the smallest squad of anyone in the top half of the table. Either they are not paying up to the salary cap (but after their success and that Nev is on £300+k, I can't see why they wouldn't be), or cost of living just makes it difficult to get more players under the cap.

Having the deepest, strongest squad in the UK whilst based in NW London? Throw in that they have the highest number of internationals, in terms of
a) current + past
b) just current and
c) 10+ cap internationals?

Hmm...

Give me a moment, I'm going to debunk a few of these points.

- Wages and London. Yes Saracens' home stadium is in Barnet, London but the club and their training facilities are based in St Albans, Hertfordshire. Furthermore many players live in the M1 corridor that links Herts & Essex with the East Midlands. I'm not aware of any major senior player who lives within zone 6 of London. Surprisingly the commuter belt around London (i.e. 30-40 miles away) is very affordable. I live in Kent and the cost of living is excellent compared to living in Bromley barely five miles away. Thus the theory that Saracens must be paying their players extra somehow due to the higher living costs is mostly false.

- Squad size. Yes, Saracens have one of the bigger squads of the Premiership. No, it isn't Toulon-lite. Look, I could go through all the academy players we've churned out that have been in the squad at one time or another, the fact that about a quarter of the squad are a combination of young academy graduates and players promoted from the Championship and lower and near enough another quarter are overseas youngsters from Scotland, New Zealand and *sigh* yes South Africa. It frankly doesn't make sense that you'd suddenly give these guys 50-100% pay bumps simply because they're moving to the UK. They're on reasonable salaries. The point is that the years of extravagant spending ended with the opening of Allianz Park. The party is over and now Saracens needs to turn a profit. Again, this isn't Toulon and thats never going to happen salary cap or no. With the large number of young talent in their senior squad, they're able to accomodate enough big names and finance new big names through the retirement and sale of other players to make room within the cap. I could also point to the fact that the changed, stable culture at Saracens was a big factor in why players choose Saracens over bigger pay packets in France. The fact that the club is family friendly for players, that it runs a successful work experience program to give players skills to survive if (god forbid) injury cuts their career short and the trips it takes the squad on. Its this and more which makes the club such an attractive proposition for players and adds value to what usually is a modest pay package.

- Sensitivity to allegations. If people keep mentioning Sarries every time the salary cap comes up it can get pretty tiring. While it is nice that other clubs are being mentioned now but I think it struck a nerve with Eddie Griffiths that the minute both the Cueto and the beefed up inspection regime articles came up in the media you had about a bajillion fans from *ahem* other clubs windmilling in toasting the demise of Saracens. Griffiths came out because he's making it clear that they're clean and are happy to be inspected.

Look, have Saracens broken the cap previously? I'm sure they have. Are they in breach right now? Some say its plausible that they are but both myself and others say otherwise but to be honest we don't know.

Until detractors come up with solid evidence instead of throwing out rumours here there and everywhere however, I'm quite comfortable with how Saracens have constructed their squad and accept their explanation at face value.

I don't have a view on other clubs like Saints or Tigers for example.

 

[Tony Manx]

Give me a moment, I'm going to debunk a few of these points.

- Wages and London. Yes Saracens' home stadium is in Barnet, London but the club and their training facilities are based in St Albans, Hertfordshire. Furthermore many players live in the M1 corridor that links Herts & Essex with the East Midlands. I'm not aware of any major senior player who lives within zone 6 of London. Surprisingly the commuter belt around London (i.e. 30-40 miles away) is very affordable. I live in Kent and the cost of living is excellent compared to living in Bromley barely five miles away. Thus the theory that Saracens must be paying their players extra somehow due to the higher living costs is mostly false.

- Squad size. Yes, Saracens have one of the bigger squads of the Premiership. No, it isn't Toulon-lite. Look, I could go through all the academy players we've churned out that have been in the squad at one time or another, the fact that about a quarter of the squad are a combination of young academy graduates and players promoted from the Championship and lower and near enough another quarter are overseas youngsters from Scotland, New Zealand and *sigh* yes South Africa. It frankly doesn't make sense that you'd suddenly give these guys 50-100% pay bumps simply because they're moving to the UK. They're on reasonable salaries. The point is that the years of extravagant spending ended with the opening of Allianz Park. The party is over and now Saracens needs to turn a profit. Again, this isn't Toulon and thats never going to happen salary cap or no. With the large number of young talent in their senior squad, they're able to accomodate enough big names and finance new big names through the retirement and sale of other players to make room within the cap. I could also point to the fact that the changed, stable culture at Saracens was a big factor in why players choose Saracens over bigger pay packets in France. The fact that the club is family friendly for players, that it runs a successful work experience program to give players skills to survive if (god forbid) injury cuts their career short and the trips it takes the squad on. Its this and more which makes the club such an attractive proposition for players and adds value to what usually is a modest pay package.

- Sensitivity to allegations. If people keep mentioning Sarries every time the salary cap comes up it can get pretty tiring. While it is nice that other clubs are being mentioned now but I think it struck a nerve with Eddie Griffiths that the minute both the Cueto and the beefed up inspection regime articles came up in the media you had about a bajillion fans from *ahem* other clubs windmilling in toasting the demise of Saracens. Griffiths came out because he's making it clear that they're clean and are happy to be inspected.

Look, have Saracens broken the cap previously? I'm sure they have. Are they in breach right now? Some say its plausible that they are but both myself and others say otherwise but to be honest we don't know.

Until detractors come up with solid evidence instead of throwing out rumours here there and everywhere however, I'm quite comfortable with how Saracens have constructed their squad and accept their explanation at face value.

I don't have a view on other clubs like Saints or Tigers for example.

Super post and should make everyone think as it so well reasoned.....certainly made me think!! You are right, of course, without the facts we can only guess and sometimes let the "jealousy" factor intrude into those thoughts!!

 

[Prestwick]

Super post and should make everyone think as it so well reasoned.....certainly made me think!! You are right, of course, without the facts we can only guess and sometimes let the "jealousy" factor intrude into those thoughts!!

I'll also add that if Premiership Rugby do come out and dock Saracens money and/or points in public then I'll be the first to throw the first stone. I'm never one to condone bad behaviour in rugby either on the pitch or in the finance deparment yet while some may consider this myopia I honestly don't see conclusive proof that Saracens are breaking the cap.

 

[j'nuh]

Glos vs. Sarries, player-by-player:

Looseheads
Wood vs Vunipola
Murphy vs Gill

Hookers
Edmonds vs Brits
Dawidiuk vs George
George vs Saunders

Tightheads
Knight vs Stevens
Harden vs Johnston
Thomas vs du Plessis

Others
Britton vs Barrington

Locks
James vs Botha
Savage vs Kruis
Hudson vs Borthwick
Lokotui vs Hargreaves, Sheriff

Flankers
Kalamafoni vs Brown
Kvesic vs Fraser
Qera vs Burger
Hazell vs Melck
Cox vs Fenton-Wells, Wray

8s
Morgan vs Vunipola
Evans vs Joubert

Scrummies
Cowan vs de Kock
Knoyle vs Wigglesworth
Robson vs Baldwin

Fly-halves
Burns vs Farrell
Bentley vs Hodgson
Taylor vs Mordt

Centers
Twelvetrees vs Barritt
Mills vs Taylor
Trinder vs Tomkins
Tindall vs Bosch
Molenaar vs Streather

Wings
JSD vs Ashton
May vs Strettle
Sharples vs Tagicakibau
Monahan vs Short, Wilson

Fullbacks
Cook vs Goode
Thomas vs Wyles, Ransom

These squads cost exactly the same? Hmm....

 

[psychic duck]

Super post and should make everyone think as it so well reasoned.....certainly made me think!! You are right, of course, without the facts we can only guess and sometimes let the "jealousy" factor intrude into those thoughts!!

It's not to do with jealousy. Virtually half the league has complained at some point, it's an open secret that some teams are cheating. Gloucester's chairman even pretty much implying that some teams are being fined just without the news being made public.

 

[Tony Manx]

It's not to do with jealousy. Virtually half the league has complained at some point, it's an open secret that some teams are cheating. Gloucester's chairman even pretty much implying that some teams are being fined just without the news being made public.

.....yet as Prestwick says no proof and how in this day and age do such "fines" stay private.............

The RFU is too big, too public for NOONE to say NOTHING!

I have to admit that my inclination is that Sarries, Saints, Leicester and Bath probably all are breaking the so called salary cap but where is the proof, why has NOONE come out and sold their story to the hungry media never mind the inefficient RFU found anything?

You can argue that it is not in the RFU's interest to upset the clubs but there are enough different "innocent" clubs' officials involved in the RFU that one of them would have broken ranks?

The jealousy factor is that we all want to believe it for all our own reasons but where is the evidence or the leaks?

 

[Peat]

I think it has been made official that teams have been punished in secret for it. I think it was in one of the papers about a year or so back. My memory is very hazy on this though, may well be wrong.

That said - if anyone is cheating - its very difficult to look past Saracens as obvious candidates. They have the finances, which I think only 4 clubs do. I'm also struggling to think of any club that's been signing so many top of the game players from other big clubs, although Northampton have taken to emulating them there.

Now, sure, this is all speculation. But that's what forums like these are for, no?

edit: Tony, the salary cap is nothing to do with the RFU. It is PRL mandated and PRL enforced. As for the idea people are saying Saracens look like they're over because they're jealous - homeboy please. People are saying it because that squad roster strains credibility. That simple.

 

[psychic duck]

.....yet as Prestwick says no proof and how in this day and age do such "fines" stay private.............

The RFU is too big, too public for NOONE to say NOTHING!

I have to admit that my inclination is that Sarries, Saints, Leicester and Bath probably all are breaking the so called salary cap but where is the proof, why has NOONE come out and sold their story to the hungry media never mind the inefficient RFU found anything?

You can argue that it is not in the RFU's interest to upset the clubs but there are enough different "innocent" clubs' officials involved in the RFU that one of them would have broken ranks?

The jealousy factor is that we all want to believe it for all our own reasons but where is the evidence or the leaks?

I'm sure that PRL's representative on the RFU council Peter Wheeler (Leicester chief exec since 1996) has it top of his priority list to expose in public the salary cap breakers ...

 

[Peat]

From the Telegraph

Winstanley admitted that the move to toughen up the salary cap regulations had been inevitable.
He revealed there had already been three previous non-disclosed breaches, with the guilty clubs all receiving "significant financial penalties" but said it was vital now that the process became more transparent.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...clubs-warned-to-expect-points-deductions.html

From the horse's mouth.

 

[psychic duck]

From the Telegraph



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ru...clubs-warned-to-expect-points-deductions.html

From the horse's mouth.

Thanks for that link Peat. This pretty much confirms what I was saying, it's an open secret that some teams are breaking it. It also seems by the amount of clubs that have made noise about it that some are tired of the way it is dealt with.

The private, non transparent way of doing it leaves the system open to underhand deals. I wouldn't be surprised if a richer side is essentially behind closed doors just paying those in power to break it. They wouldn't be able to do that under a system where it was made public as their credibility would take a hammering.

 

[Tony Manx]

Thanks for that link Peat. This pretty much confirms what I was saying, it's an open secret that some teams are breaking it. It also seems by the amount of clubs that have made noise about it that some are tired of the way it is dealt with.

The private, non transparent way of doing it leaves the system open to underhand deals. I wouldn't be surprised if a richer side is essentially behind closed doors just paying those in power to break it. They wouldn't be able to do that under a system where it was made public as their credibility would take a hammering.

Sorry old chap it confirms nothing of the sort......it is a rehash of suspicions without any shred of proof and the very fact that all clubs are more than happy to give stricter powers tend to demonstrate that they either are not breaching the cap or are certain they will not be caught!! Again, nothing in this article evidences any "secret" fines or punishments........................I will wait for more proof than a Torygraph correspondent's rehash of an old story!!

 

[psychic duck]

Sorry old chap it confirms nothing of the sort......it is a rehash of suspicions without any shred of proof and the very fact that all clubs are more than happy to give stricter powers tend to demonstrate that they either are not breaching the cap or are certain they will not be caught!! Again, nothing in this article evidences any "secret" fines or punishments........................I will wait for more proof than a Torygraph correspondent's rehash of an old story!!

Erm ... yes it does.

"Phil Winstanley, rugby director for Premiership Rugby revealed there had already been three previous non-disclosed breaches."

​If that's not a "shred of proof" then what do you want short of Richard Cockerill to get a TRF account and admit it himself?

 

[Tony Manx]

Erm ... yes it does.

"Phil Winstanley, rugby director for Premiership Rugby revealed there had already been three previous non-disclosed breaches."

​If that's not a "shred of proof" then what do you want short of Richard Cockerill to get a TRF account and admit it himself?

Tiny breach - huge breach? Punished? Not punished?

Not mean a lot to be honest and sounds more like typical PR unattributable non provable justification for the new powers...............

 

[TRF_Olyy]

What are you on about?
This isn't some random journo saying there's been breaches, this is the guy in charge of the whole operation saying that there have been three breaches in the salary cap. How can you possibly read that as anything other than there being three breaches in the salary cap?!

 

[Tony Manx]

In my opinion, this is a guy from the RFU making statements to prove a point as justification that cannot be proved to be right or wrong........it is very strange that with the number of officials involved in the RFU from all different clubs, both in and below the Premiership, who would have an axe to grind on this issue, nothing has been "leaked" (on an non or attributable basis) to this so called journalist to actually state the type of breach, the seriousness or whether, in fact, any penalty was actually levied by whom or where any such fine was paid to?

I have seen many time examples, along these lines, where people publish statements to justify things where the actual statements were impossible of being proved one way or another but which any sane person should take with a huge pinch of salt!!

Balance of probability...............load of ********!!

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Rugby.
Director.
For.
Premiership.
Rugby.

This has got nothing to do with the RFU.
And this isn't a journalist saying things, it's the RUGBY DIRECTOR FOR PREMIERSHIP RUGBY saying that there's been breaches. I don't get where you're coming from at all. He's in charge of...well, everything. If he wanted to prove it he could, PRL just choose not to (possibly part of their rules atm, not disclosing breaches to the public, hence them saying they'll be doing so in the future).