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ELV talk

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (snoopy snoopy dog dog @ Mar 26 2009, 04:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (An Tarbh @ Mar 26 2009, 03:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't really buy the comparison, feeding the ball crooked into a scrum and missing a kick are 2 entirely different things, the scrum half is cheating, the kicker isn't.[/b]
Cheating? Unarguably yes but does it decrease the enjoyment of the game when a scrumhalf throws it in his teams direction? Not a bit.

Does a long, speculative missed kick at goal which takes a minute off the clock decrease the enjoyment/atmosphere of a game? Unquestionably yes.

For example, a minute into the Wales v Ireland game, Ronan O'Gara lined up a kick at goal from roughly 50 metres out, wide on the right hand side of the field. Had there been more of an element of risk to attempting to kick, it would have given Brian O'Driscoll more to ponder. Go for the jugular early by kicking to the corner? Kick for goal and attempt to put points on the board? Consider the implications of a missed kick? At the time it was obvious to everybody in the crowd that O'Gara would try to get a cheap 3 points (for wont of a better term) early on despite it being on the very edge of his range. O'Driscoll had no decision to make. O'Gara missed and Ireland got the ball back. In essence they got a 2nd chance to do something having screwed up their initial effort. That example hold true for countless games.
[/b][/quote]

yet no mention of the blatant penalty conceded in the first place, there's no way that a defending team should get any benefit out of a missed penalty, I just can't buy into that at all.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (An Tarbh @ Mar 26 2009, 03:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
yet no mention of the blatant penalty conceded in the first place, there's no way that a defending team should get any benefit out of a missed penalty, I just can't buy into that at all.[/b]
No problem, I know I'm not going to convince you! I've no problem acknowledging the reason a team get a penalty is because the opponent cheated (although in the example I provided Ronan O'Gara should be ashamed of the way he milked Jones' hit). Getting a penalty gives a team an option of what they can do with the ball. That's reward enough in my eyes. Screw up and you shouldn't get a 2nd chance.
 
well it's hardly a second chance when you're just gathering a restart which most teams hit long anyway.
 
I know more times than not I often sound like a naysayer when it comes to proposed changes but that's because I'm quite a tradtionalist, for me one of the best moments in the Six Nations was the sight of the Irish maul in action and that's an elv that has to go by the wayside. Eventually I'll be dragged kicking and screaming on some of the others.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (An Tarbh @ Mar 26 2009, 04:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
well it's hardly a second chance when you're just gathering a restart which most teams hit long anyway.[/b]
The opposition kick it long and you reclaim the ball in roughly the same area of the field where the penalty was awarded two minutes earlier. Nothing at all constructive has happened, a chunk off the clock and we're facing the exact same situation as a couple of minutes previous to the awarding of the penalty.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (An Tarbh @ Mar 26 2009, 04:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
I know more times than not I often sound like a naysayer when it comes to proposed changes but that's because I'm quite a tradtionalist, for me one of the best moments in the Six Nations was the sight of the Irish maul in action and that's an elv that has to go by the wayside.[/b]
I wouldn't quite say that I loved the sight of a maul but I do fully agree that it's the one ELV which has had the worst effect on the sport. It must be and will be done away with.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jer1cho @ Mar 26 2009, 01:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gingergenius @ Mar 26 2009, 02:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
but not rolling away and holding on can both be cynical offences to slow down posession, which makes it harder to attack anyway. So you punish cheating with a penalty. seems fair enough.[/b]

That's not the point. The point is, stopping the momentum completely, then having 40 kicks at goal per match because of silly infringements is what frustrates me. When a try is scored, i cheer myself stupid! But when the crowd is roaring, we gain ground, then all of a sudden we just kick at goal. Screw that. If i wanted kicks deciding every game i would become a football fan. Offsides and deliberate fouls i can deal with, but i just prefer the flowing game! When i watched Ireland vs Wales the other day, i was witnessing how kicking was going to snatch the Irish of their victory! It was so painful to watch. I think it's crap that a team can win scoring less tries than the other, but they have a 'Francois Steyn' who only needs 60m to do his thing.

Look, i'm not saying that we should turn the game into sevens, or league. I just think that having tries decide matches is better than having kick decide them. Obviously penalty kicks are a massive part of the game, and they should be. They just shouldn't run every darn game!

The Chiefs vs Blues game on the weekend was a prime example of what happens when you get a referee that knows how to handle the ELV's. I think we can all agree that the World Cup final 2 years ago would have been a heck of a lot better had there been some law variations in place.
[/b][/quote]

ok, so i'm open to this one: you allow the referee and touch judges to decide what is cynical and what is not... cynical cheat bits get a penalty; other ones get a free kick... but d oyou trust referees?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cymro @ Mar 26 2009, 04:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
If you award a free kick for holding on the floor etc then you will start to take the lineout out of the game, okay you will still have them for kicking to touch directly and indirectly and running out but surely a offence like holding on the floor deserves the team who have won the penalty to be able to kick for touch and gain the ground instead of kicking the ball into touch and not get the ball at the lineout.[/b]

Eh? You make it seem that kicking is the only option...

Teams generally run from a free kick, or set a scrum to create a good attacking opportunity.

As for kicking the ball from a free kick and not getting the throw in - I don't think it's a big deal. You at least get field position and put into an opportunity where you can contest the ball. I believe that rucks are so complicated at the moment (due to a lack of actual rucking) that half the time the penalties could go either way... therefore it's a bit harsh to always award full arm penalties in that regard.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cymro @ Mar 26 2009, 04:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Also what annoys me the most about the ELV's is the increase in the amount of ball that is kicked like a ping pong match![/b]

There was incessant back and forth kicking before the ELV's were introduced. The only difference now is that there's maybe one or two less lineouts in between.
 
As for the supposed 'assistant referees'... they're not doing their job.

The IRB really needs to give them a big kick up the ass.

More often than not there are incidents that occur right in front of these dopes and they ignore it.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fushitsusha @ Mar 26 2009, 10:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cymro @ Mar 26 2009, 04:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If you award a free kick for holding on the floor etc then you will start to take the lineout out of the game, okay you will still have them for kicking to touch directly and indirectly and running out but surely a offence like holding on the floor deserves the team who have won the penalty to be able to kick for touch and gain the ground instead of kicking the ball into touch and not get the ball at the lineout.[/b]

Eh? You make it seem that kicking is the only option...

Teams generally run from a free kick, or set a scrum to create a good attacking opportunity.

As for kicking the ball from a free kick and not getting the throw in - I don't think it's a big deal. You at least get field position and put into an opportunity where you can contest the ball. I believe that rucks are so complicated at the moment (due to a lack of actual rucking) that half the time the penalties could go either way... therefore it's a bit harsh to always award full arm penalties in that regard.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cymro @ Mar 26 2009, 04:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Also what annoys me the most about the ELV's is the increase in the amount of ball that is kicked like a ping pong match![/b]

There was incessant back and forth kicking before the ELV's were introduced. The only difference now is that there's maybe one or two less lineouts in between.
[/b][/quote]

No there is an increase in the ping pong and thats a fact!

Regarding a Penalty or Free Kick maybe it should be a free kick but constant infringement should mean a penalty and not a free kick!
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Fushitsusha @ Mar 26 2009, 10:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Eh? You make it seem that kicking is the only option...

Teams generally run from a free kick, or set a scrum to create a good attacking opportunity.

As for kicking the ball from a free kick and not getting the throw in - I don't think it's a big deal. You at least get field position and put into an opportunity where you can contest the ball. I believe that rucks are so complicated at the moment (due to a lack of actual rucking) that half the time the penalties could go either way... therefore it's a bit harsh to always award full arm penalties in that regard.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cymro @ Mar 26 2009, 04:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Also what annoys me the most about the ELV's is the increase in the amount of ball that is kicked like a ping pong match![/b]

There was incessant back and forth kicking before the ELV's were introduced. The only difference now is that there's maybe one or two less lineouts in between.
[/b][/quote]

Ok, there wasn't much aimless ping pong pre-ELVs. And forget the garryowens of the RWC... because sudden death, high pressure rugby is different. Think - the players back fielding the kick will be the fullback, and probably 2 wingers, the scrum half and the number 8. With the rule that you could pass back into the 22 and kick straight out, these players would normally pass the ball back and kick it straight out.

Now, kicks that land short of the 22 cannot be kicked straight out. So the player fielding it can 1) run it, but this is risky because he may well get isolated and give away a penalty for holding on; or 2) kick it back. The kick back can't go straight out, which means it goes to the fieldsmen back for the other team. This process is repeated ('ping pong') until someone kicks it out of play... which if you remember would have happened straightaway under the old rules.

So these ELVs do indeed give the ball more time in-play... it just happens that this time is spent with the ball up in the air.

So you have the option - you can have the old rules where play will continue following the lineout; or you have the current rules where there's a kick-fest first, and then you have play continuing via the lineout.

The one way around this would be to reduce the 'holding on' offence to a free-kick. Which I believe happens in the SH variation of the rules... but I don't think that's right, since if you're holding on, you're preventing turnover ball, and we know good sides convert turnovers into tries. So the penalty for holding on is, rightly, a penalty.
 
One of the things that worry me is that despite playing under some kind of ELV revision, players still can't quite work out that passing the ball into the 22 and then kicking straight out can end up with a line out on your own ten meter line :V
 
An interesting read:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/r...cs-1655596.html


ELVs reveal startling statistics
By Peter Bills


Friday, 27 March 2009


Some extraordinarily revealing figures about modern day rugby which go a long way to explaining many of the problems in the game will be presented to an IRB conference on the new ELVs in London next week.

Arguably the most microscopic examination of the game ever undertaken has shown that the breakdown, enshrined in the rules of the game as a contest for the ball, has become almost anything but. During the 2007 Rugby World Cup final, the retention rate of possession by the two teams going into contact at the breakdown was an incredible 95 per cent. Over that tournament as a whole, a retention rate of 92 per cent was discerned.

One leading IRB official called the figures "truly scary" and rightly so. They threaten the whole future of rugby union as a game for all shapes and sizes, as defined in its charter. The reason is, if ball possession is guaranteed at the breakdown, players of a uniform height and weight will emerge, as in rugby league. The need for smaller men like flankers, who are able to win the ball on the ground, will gradually die out.

But what that reality led to were further statistics which explain with brutal clarity why there is so little space available in the modern game for attack minded teams. The survey showed that in the 1970s, on average, there were around 50 rucks and mauls in a game. Those points of the breakdown attracted, again on average, 6-7 attacking players and 5-6 defenders.

That figure has mushroomed to anything between 150 and 190 rucks and mauls in the modern game. But most crucially, the numbers for attacking and defending players at the breakdown tell their own story. On average in the modern game, researchers have found that just 3.3 attacking players commit to the breakdown. The number of defenders is frightening, just 1.2.

These figures explain perfectly why the modern day rugby field is cluttered with players. With so few committing to the breakdown, the rest are lined out across the field in rugby league style, simply waiting to knock down the ball carrier. At that point of breakdown, equally few numbers commit which means sides often need 17 or 20 phases to make a decisive breach in the opposition defence.

Thousands of games, played in countries as diverse as Scotland, Australia, South Africa and New Zealand have been videoed and analysed to produce these figures. In those countries at certain levels, the full set of ELVs have been trialled, with aspects such as an offside line at the breakdown, allowing hands in the ruck and the short arm free kick rather than full penalty for a raft of offences.

What those trials have shown is that the retention rate for the ball carrier going into the breakdown drops to 85 per cent or less, thereby moving the game slightly closer to a contest for possession. And numbers of defending players have increased at those breakdowns.

The tragedy is that all those ELVs which could make a really significant difference to the game by freeing up more space look almost certain to be thrown out when the IRB Council makes a final decision probably late next month.

This is because the northern hemisphere put its heads in the sand and flatly refused to countenance trialling the more controversial but potentially more advantageous aspects of the ELVs. I understand even the ELV under which teams are allowed to collapse the maul, is not likely to be sanctioned. Yet despite the original law under which the rolling maul could not be collapsed, as many as 71 per cent were, showing that illegalities flourished.

Critics, mainly in the northern hemisphere, claimed there would be many more injuries if mauls were allowed to be collapsed. But after two years, that doesn't appear to be the case.

All the game is likely to be left with after four years of trials in various countries around the world is a few watered down, largely inconsequential laws such as allowing players to throw the ball straight back to a colleague rather than forming a full line-out, not allowing the ball to be passed back into the 22 and then kicked into touch on the full and forcing defences to retreat an extra 5 metres at set pieces.

But this would be merely tinkering with the problems. It would also leave the game stuck with the ghastly sight of unadventurous players and terrified coaches scared of losing a game and maybe their jobs just relentlessly kicking the ball backwards and forwards downfield to avoid taking the slightest risk.

Australian Rod Macqueen, who was one of the original rugby men asked to draw up a list of potential law changes, said "You can't blame these new trialled rules for the decision of coaches and players to be ultra conservative. Equally, it will be very difficult to make a definitive judgement on these ELVs because the whole principle of the Laws Project Group was that the laws should be trialled worldwide in full, so that an assessment could be made based on fact, not perception.

"Sadly, that has proved impossible to achieve."

Macqueen says he holds no particular candle for any law. He and his colleagues on the Laws Project Group were appointed and simply asked to investigate some proposals which might or might not prove beneficial.

But many people will draw the sad conclusion that if the more innovative of these ELVs are jettisoned the game will have lost a glorious opportunity to move forward into a 21st century sport synonymous with professionalism and entertainment, able to attract a new audience.[/b]
What I took from it is that the breakdown is a huge problem and something must be done to sort it out. A way must be found whereby teams will commit to the ruck rather than fan across the field and smother space.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (snoopy snoopy dog dog @ Mar 27 2009, 06:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
An interesting read:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/r...cs-1655596.html


ELVs reveal startling statistics
By Peter Bills


Friday, 27 March 2009


Some extraordinarily revealing figures about modern day rugby which go a long way to explaining many of the problems in the game will be presented to an IRB conference on the new ELVs in London next week.

Arguably the most microscopic examination of the game ever undertaken has shown that the breakdown, enshrined in the rules of the game as a contest for the ball, has become almost anything but. During the 2007 Rugby World Cup final, the retention rate of possession by the two teams going into contact at the breakdown was an incredible 95 per cent. Over that tournament as a whole, a retention rate of 92 per cent was discerned.

One leading IRB official called the figures "truly scary" and rightly so. They threaten the whole future of rugby union as a game for all shapes and sizes, as defined in its charter. The reason is, if ball possession is guaranteed at the breakdown, players of a uniform height and weight will emerge, as in rugby league. The need for smaller men like flankers, who are able to win the ball on the ground, will gradually die out.

But what that reality led to were further statistics which explain with brutal clarity why there is so little space available in the modern game for attack minded teams. The survey showed that in the 1970s, on average, there were around 50 rucks and mauls in a game. Those points of the breakdown attracted, again on average, 6-7 attacking players and 5-6 defenders.

That figure has mushroomed to anything between 150 and 190 rucks and mauls in the modern game. But most crucially, the numbers for attacking and defending players at the breakdown tell their own story. On average in the modern game, researchers have found that just 3.3 attacking players commit to the breakdown. The number of defenders is frightening, just 1.2.

These figures explain perfectly why the modern day rugby field is cluttered with players. With so few committing to the breakdown, the rest are lined out across the field in rugby league style, simply waiting to knock down the ball carrier. At that point of breakdown, equally few numbers commit which means sides often need 17 or 20 phases to make a decisive breach in the opposition defence.

Thousands of games, played in countries as diverse as Scotland, Australia, South Africa and New Zealand have been videoed and analysed to produce these figures. In those countries at certain levels, the full set of ELVs have been trialled, with aspects such as an offside line at the breakdown, allowing hands in the ruck and the short arm free kick rather than full penalty for a raft of offences.

What those trials have shown is that the retention rate for the ball carrier going into the breakdown drops to 85 per cent or less, thereby moving the game slightly closer to a contest for possession. And numbers of defending players have increased at those breakdowns.

The tragedy is that all those ELVs which could make a really significant difference to the game by freeing up more space look almost certain to be thrown out when the IRB Council makes a final decision probably late next month.

This is because the northern hemisphere put its heads in the sand and flatly refused to countenance trialling the more controversial but potentially more advantageous aspects of the ELVs. I understand even the ELV under which teams are allowed to collapse the maul, is not likely to be sanctioned. Yet despite the original law under which the rolling maul could not be collapsed, as many as 71 per cent were, showing that illegalities flourished.

Critics, mainly in the northern hemisphere, claimed there would be many more injuries if mauls were allowed to be collapsed. But after two years, that doesn't appear to be the case.

All the game is likely to be left with after four years of trials in various countries around the world is a few watered down, largely inconsequential laws such as allowing players to throw the ball straight back to a colleague rather than forming a full line-out, not allowing the ball to be passed back into the 22 and then kicked into touch on the full and forcing defences to retreat an extra 5 metres at set pieces.

But this would be merely tinkering with the problems. It would also leave the game stuck with the ghastly sight of unadventurous players and terrified coaches scared of losing a game and maybe their jobs just relentlessly kicking the ball backwards and forwards downfield to avoid taking the slightest risk.

Australian Rod Macqueen, who was one of the original rugby men asked to draw up a list of potential law changes, said "You can't blame these new trialled rules for the decision of coaches and players to be ultra conservative. Equally, it will be very difficult to make a definitive judgement on these ELVs because the whole principle of the Laws Project Group was that the laws should be trialled worldwide in full, so that an assessment could be made based on fact, not perception.

"Sadly, that has proved impossible to achieve."

Macqueen says he holds no particular candle for any law. He and his colleagues on the Laws Project Group were appointed and simply asked to investigate some proposals which might or might not prove beneficial.

But many people will draw the sad conclusion that if the more innovative of these ELVs are jettisoned the game will have lost a glorious opportunity to move forward into a 21st century sport synonymous with professionalism and entertainment, able to attract a new audience.[/b]
What I took from it is that the breakdown is a huge problem and something must be done to sort it out. A way must be found whereby teams will commit to the ruck rather than fan across the field and smother space.
[/b][/quote]

Eddie Butler said last week that the pro-ELV brigade would come armed with statistics to back up their point. f*** them. England scored more and conceded less tries this 6Nations, made the most line breaks and blah di blah. Did we win? Statistics are easily spinnable and don't always add up.

Rugby is not a game ruled by stats. We see what we see in front of us. No one gives two shits what percentage of this and that happen, because no one watches rugby and tries to work it out. They're just interesting afterthoughts to explain why certain events happen in a game. People who watch rugby watch the action on the pitch. And no one can say that the aesthetics of the action on the pitch has been beneffitted by the ELVs. Even Declan Kidney, who has no reason to complain given that his team just won a Grand Slam, complained.

And Rod McQueen's view shows exactly why the ELVs were a well-meant disaster:

"You can't blame these new trialled rules for the decision of coaches and players to be ultra conservative".

Yes you can. These players and coaches are professionals, whose job is first and foremost to win matches. Martyn Williams isn't thinking about making the game more exciting when he sticks his hand in a ruck and slows posession down. Jerry Collins doesn't think about it when he 'gets in the way' of a player chasing a kick. Point being, you make rules and these guys will do everything in their power to find loopholes, break the rules and not get caught; just to give an advantage to their team. Why would you play 7s style rugby in high-pressure situations?

And if McQueen's going to be consistent then he can apply that exact same phrase to the last rules. The SANZARS were moaning about an ugly game after the RWC, but why didn't Rod McQueen turn around then and say "you can't blame the rules..."

Very persuasive article with lovely numbers which people seem to love. Shame I can pick it apart in 5 minutes.
 
How can he compare the 'full set of rules' where hands in the ruck and an offiside line at the tackle (almost impossible to referee) are being used when these aren't even used in the Super 14 / Tri Nations! Comparing the ruck retention stats between lower leagues and top competitions / internationals can't be done! There's less skill and therefore the % of rucks retained by the attcking team is going to reduce. Stupid.

At the end of the day, it's obvious what ELV's have brought to the table, the only questions are whether we stick with them to see if things change (maybe the way England played in their final 3 6 nations games showes the way they can be played even by a traditinally 'boring' team, no offence), or do we scrap the majority of them and get back to 'proper' rugby. I personally vote to scrapping a couple, retaining the others.

Referees haven't been helping either imo. The rule for going off your feet at a ruck which the IRB wanted improving, has been stupidly refereed. I understand the reasons, so a player can't cocoon the ball, guaranteeing the ball, but when a player comes in to clear out, only to accidentally miss/miss calculate the force needed and go flying over the top get's penalised, I don't get it! As long as said player doesn't get in the way of the ball, what's the matter? It just ends up penalising the attackling team, reducing the nice free flowing rugby the IRB want to promote.

Just one more thing, why are you SH guys like Fushitsusha calling a penalty a 'full arm penalty', what other kind is there?
 

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