English summer rugby

[j'nuh]

But I think we're overestimating the "lack of carriers". Not having Morgan was a massive blow. I've talked about the need for generating momentum when you have none. Put the ball in his hands and you're kick-starting your way to an offloading game.

But even without him, our 6N XV had Vunipola, Youngs, Launchbury, Wood and Robshaw. These are all very decent carriers for their positions. We also have Tuilagi. We shouldn't be short of carriers in the pack.

Which makes me think the problem is either tactical, or poor service. But Care always seems to get the game flowing a lot faster when he plays, so...

There was a point a few years ago (I can't remember exactly when) when Care's passing was all over the place. He was first-choice and had a lot going for him, but his accuracy was terrible. He also ran way too much and got caught out. Back then, people were screaming for Youngs to start. Then Youngs overtook and proved why, because he had it all for a while. Since then, Youngs has gotten progressively worse, and Care recovered pretty quickly from that slump and is now a very good player. I just wonder whether that brief period of lack of form has cost Care dearly.

 

[ratsapprentice]

What are you guys basing your opinion of Robshaw being a good carrier on? I don't get it...
He looks poor whenever I watch him, and the stats support that position very clearly.

He's certainly very good at retaining the ball, and he's a good offloader for Quins, other than that....?

 

[j'nuh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-2QsNGaA88#t=7m3s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-2QsNGaA88#t=10m20s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-2QsNGaA88#t=32m22s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-2QsNGaA88#t=32m35s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-2QsNGaA88#t=55m57s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-2QsNGaA88#t=56m19s

I'm gonna stop there, but I think you get the point. He's a fantastic tight carrier/tight link man. He builds multi-phase play by carrying/passing in the tight (he's been the top passer in the pack on 11/16 occasions, and second on the rest). He gets no stat recognition in his carrying. His work also gets ignored because it's not very noticeable. But it's a very important option for a scrum-half to have.

btw, when he does carry in space, he can make some nice meters, it's just not his speciality:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-2QsNGaA88#t=27m00s

Also, this passage is some great momentum-building play. Note that no "famed" carriers like Morgan are used. Ashton makes a semi-break and eats 5-10m beyond the gain line. It allows Youngs to glide across the field, unopposed by Scottish defenders since they are back pedalling and organising their defensive line. England make some good meters, but England eventually get turned over because Brown's inexperience on the wing means he doesn't support Barritt when he should have. Note that presentation becomes a lot easier and interference at the break down is minimal, just because England have generated the momentum. This is what I'd like to see more of.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I'll concede that the stats will look bad for him, because of the types of carry he makes.
Nothing you are showing me suggests he is a great carrier. His carries are almost equivalent to Joel Tomkins' offloads.
He makes ****ing loads of them, most of them are innefectual, but because of the sheer number some are bound to come off.
You've also picked his most effective game in the six nations.

Robshaw's style of carrying is great for maintaning momentum, not creating it.

I get the feeling we simply disagree.

 

[j'nuh]

I picked that match because other than the NZ game, it was the first I could find that was a full 80.

From the top of my head, the four most important aspects of playing as a tight carrier are:
1. A work rate to get into position; because there are few tight carriers in a team.
2. An ability to not get turned over; because you're working in an area with many forwards, and you can sometimes get isolated.
3. Fast presentation; because your role is to draw in defenders whilst not losing much momentum.
4. Supporting other tight carriers.

To play as the main go-to tight carrier, you also play as an auxiliary decision-maker. (You're essentially the fly-half in the pack.) You decide when you should carry, or when there's someone on the edge of the tight zone that can make more meters.

I would argue that Robshaw does all of this rather well.

Perhaps he could make half-a-meter more if he had a stronger frame, but as long as he isn't being shoved back beyond the gain line, then I don't see this being important, and would probably detract from other areas of his game.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I'm not saying he isn't effective, just that he isn't actually very good at carrying.
He is effective despite his lack of ability in this area, because he can carry so often.

That goes for pretty much every aspect of his game, he is a jack of all trades with a huge work-rate and low error rate.
He is an enabler, his work means other don't have to.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I've never particularly rated Robshaw as a carrier.
He's decent but not amazing. Certainly does get involved in making the hard yards (which is needed due to the relatively lightweight pack) but not sure he's got the physique for it. Would certainly rather Robshaw rumbling at me than SOB for example.
As has been said: stats will show him as a poor carrier because he'll be carrying in the tight rather than the Crofts etc. who will get the ball in space.

Sent from my GT-I9305 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Peat]

Robshaw and O'Brien's carrying stats for the Six Nations are very similar. O'Brien made 0.04 more metres per carry. Both only made one clean break. O'Brien beat more defenders, but that's about it.

I think Robshaw is a decent to good tight carrier. He does his job. But I would not call him fantastic. He is not a guy who kickstarts it all. He is neither the problem nor the solution.

However, I look at j'nuh's pack - Vunipola didn't start many games, and I consider none of Youngs, Launchbury or Wood to be great tight carriers. Wood's ok. Youngs can make dents with a head of steam but we seem incapable of coaching run-ups to take static ball.

 

[ratsapprentice]

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/inte...lie-sharples-may-be-on-fast-track-for-recall/

Ich don't think so...

He is not a guy who kickstarts it all. He is neither the problem nor the solution.

I agree with that, I wasn't simply criticising them (well... I was with Cole), but trying to say that it's another issue of balance in the side.
Generally your loosehead and tighthead will be better at carrying in the loose or tight, respectively.
The same should go for your locks and flankers too, IMO. One of each good in the tight and one in the loose.
Then your 8 has to be strong in both, because let's face it, ball carrying is his primary role.

I think if Robshaw moves back to 6 and we play Kvesic (read: specialist players from 1-8), then it will allow Robshaw to not have to worry so much about being the rugby Swiss army knife he has had to be.

 

[HenryChinaski]

I like the rugby paper a lot, but this is a really pointless article - basically they're describing what's happened to Sharples in the last year and then saying 'Maybe he'll get recalled!" . But maybe not!

Does anyone else think this whole 'hire a sprinting coach' thing is a bit weird/pointless? Sure, you may be able to coax guys with an aptitude for sprinting into cutting a few mili-seconds off their time, but does that really help much? If its Christian Wade, for example, I'd rather he be thinking as a rugby player with the ball in hand, spacially aware both of support players, defenders, and opportunities, rather than be thinking 'got to sprint like a sprinter now!'. Sure there'll be the odd foot race where it might be nice to get there quicker but again, is it really worth spending time on? The vast majority of players in a squad have little cause to learn better sprinting - even if you improve Vunipola's sprint time slightly, he's still not going to get to the line without help - so surely it would be better to coach the awareness and ball-skills that a RUGBY PLAYER needs. And for me that goes for all players, even lightning fast guys like Wade and May.

 

[ratsapprentice]

It's not pointless at all, in fact I'm surprised that this is news worthy.

What's shocking is how slowly Union is adapting to professionalism.
More than 15 years into it, and only now are they using sprint coaches?
They have had a session trying to correct their running techniques.
It's not like they've cancelled their rugby training and are going to be trying to shave 0.00001 seconds off their 40m time.

Would you say it's pointless getting the tight 5 to learn from a powerlifter?
Or getting players to learn wrestling techniques?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I think it's weird that it's in the news because every club does it :huh: Wasps with Margot Wells and Sale with Darren Campbell etc.etc.
I don't think it's pointless as it'll teach a more efficient running style which will improve both speed and stamina.

 

[j'nuh]

Does anyone else think this whole 'hire a sprinting coach' thing is a bit weird/pointless? Sure, you may be able to coax guys with an aptitude for sprinting into cutting a few mili-seconds off their time...

I agree that there probably isn't a massive scope for improvement in Sharples/May. (btw, Sharples finally confirmed that it was him that held the sprint record against May last summer, although it may have changed now.) But changing running styles is a very easy switch for very easy gains.

Anyway, I don't think it's them that will benefit most. I expect guys like Monahan, Kalamafoni and Morgan (Ben) to be the kind of players to gain the most. Players with a need for pace and have scope to improve.

 

[HenryChinaski]

It's not pointless at all, in fact I'm surprised that this is news worthy.

What's shocking is how slowly Union is adapting to professionalism.
More than 15 years into it, and only now are they using sprint coaches?
They have had a session trying to correct their running techniques.
It's not like they've cancelled their rugby training and are going to be trying to shave 0.00001 seconds off their 40m time.

Would you say it's pointless getting the tight 5 to learn from a powerlifter?
Or getting players to learn wrestling techniques?

yes I would, frankly - because rugby as a game is a melting pot of different skills coming together to create an athlete, and in my opinion over-specialization in any one area isn't an unqualifiedly good thing - and that's arguably a general criticism you could levy against Northerm hemipshere players - too much that is different between players of different positions; we're only really beginning to see props for example with a general footballing skillset that can be of use to the whole team rather than just in the scrum, and many still aren't. In terms of the sprinting thing, if it's to improve running style which improves stamina and for example can help stave off injuries, then absolutely - I'm all for it - hadn't really thought of it in that light, to be honest. But your other two examples I'm much less sure about. Are you saying that our tight-fives could do with being stronger, or could with spending more time in that general field of training as opposed to the wider game? Meh, I don't think so personally.

If there are core techniques to be increased and improved, such as the running efficiency thing then I'm happy and I'll readily admit I hadn't thought about that aspect of it. But I don't want a proliferation of different things such as the examples you quote which compartmentalize the different aspects of the game.

In my opinion, we want better, more rounded and skillful players who train as groups as often as possible to promote team skill and cohesion, which I doubt you can truly achieve whilst being hived off into pods. I'm talking about the 15 man game which broadly speaking, is much stronger in the south than the month.

As for your thing about adapting to professionalism I really don't follow at all. I can see that embracing advice and best practice from fields such as health and fitness, e.g with cryotherapy, and running efficiency, can improve performance, but it's not a lack of professionalism if they don't do those things...it just signals a focus on the whole hotch-pots of skills and proficiences which rugby is ultimately all about imo.

 

[j'nuh]

henryChinaski, you have to remember that Gloucester is a running team. They specialise on keeping the ball alive. A sprint coach is a pretty natural thing to add to this. And he isn't there as May/Sharples' personal trainer:



In this vid, it's hard to tell from the quality, but I can make out Robson, Sharples, Tindall, Trinder and Molenaar and I think I can see Freddie and Billy Burns, Jonny Bentley and Steph Reynolds.

So it seems to me as if this is all of the backs training together. I'm not sure if Devonish also puts on another session for forwards, but I'd imagine so. (Sprint training the whole squad is probably not feasible, and forwards/backs is a pretty natural split.) You can see some forwards walking around in the background, and at 1:26, you can see a couple of hookers practising their lineout throwing. It may be that they're waiting for their session or something, I'm not sure.

Point is, this is a team working on their sprinting, not overspecialisation.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I completely agree that rugby skills should be the priority for rugby teams, Henry.

But the way you're talking about it suggests you think that if a player does anything other than play rugby he is necessarily worsening as a rugby player.
As if the All Blacks never do anything but play rugby. And that Richie McCaw has never done any breakdown skills work and that Dan Carter learned to kick conversions by practicing phase play.

How could a prop get better at scrummaging... well if you are looking for fresh ideas, you might think to yourself:
Who understands how to push stuff from a position roughly comparable to that of a scrum?
Powerlifters.
What are the two most important strength excercises to a prop?
Deadlifting and Squatting.
Who are the strongest and most technically proficient pushers in the world...?
Powerlifters.*

Its the same with wrestling, sprinting and any number of different disciplines.
Why would you not take advantage of specialist knowledge?
Not to do so is arrogant and complacent IMO.


*INB4 someone says Olympic lifters...

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Wonder how forwards would fare trying sumo wrestling.

 

[ratsapprentice]

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/international-rugby-union/six-nations-championship/10448/stuart-lancaster-must-dare-to-dream-says-brian-ashton/

[url]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/10203043/England-rugby-coach-Stuart-Lancaster-focused-on-attacking-vision-and-world-domination.html
[/URL]

 

[Crapspray]

All sounds promising. Indeed Lancaster seems to have a good long-term plan. I do worry, though, that in the short-term he can be too conservative; he's got a large squad to choose from now, and I wish he would be more willing to drop players within tournaments and series.

It'll be interesting to see who makes it into the EPS next Thursday. I just hope there's at least two proper wingers amongst them.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Is that when it's announced then... next Thursday?