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English summer rugby

The recent return of midweek games, which is a trend I hope continues, on tours is at least helping. A number of players who were in the midweek team in South Africa last year are now, a year later, in the EPS. That isn't to say playing against a few scratch SA Barbarian sides is what got them picked but it must have helped right.

Why not do an Senior tour and a Saxons tour?
 
And j'nuh, cool, I suggest you write in to Rob Andrew and let him know you'll be renegotiating a new hard line agreement with the clubs, and putting your hand in your pocket to fund the extra money the clubs will want for a worse agreement for them, and also that you'll be fielding any angry phone calls/mending any broken diplomatic fences with the Premiership coaches. I'd agree the situation is far from ideal - but we also get a lot of what we want out of it, and having the RFU act like dicks over it isn't going to improve things. It sucks, but this is the reality - and while we may be the only international team that restricts itself this way, we are one of only two tier 1 teams (iirc) who don't own their major teams by the balls in terms of finance. The other is France. You'd prefer to be France?
I'm not saying do away with the whole system of informing clubs about when players will be away. I'm just saying that England do so much more for the English clubs than any other international union in terms of advising when players will be away, that I don't mind if they creatively use the Saxons to try and get the most out of it.

Like, the reason so few props have been announced is simply for a lack of competition. If there's an injury to Corbs/Marler/Vunipola, Wood is leagues ahead of the competition imo, and it's obvious even now that he should be selected. If there are two injuries, then you'd probably call up Wood and hedge your bets that Wood and the other prop will make it through. Same story with hooker. Buchanan could be a little disappointed, but realistically he wouldn't be used unless there were a number of injuries.

The story isn't the same in the second row. If Launchbury/Lawes get injured, you're looking at Slater/Kruis. If Parling/Attwood get injured, then you're more looking at Robson/Kitchener/Myall. Competition is rife between these guys, so why not keep them in to keep your options open? In fact, you could probably even add Savage and Garvey, just to be sure that if an injury does come around, that you've got the best replacement possible. Unlike at prop, these replacement players have serious short/mid-term England ambitions.

Since the autumn tour is so far away, Lancaster needs to keep his options open in positions with tight competition.

That said, I don't see the need for Clark, Haskell, Johnson in addition to Croft, Wood, Robshaw and still no Fearns. And I personally would have liked to see Buchanan involved as a third hooker. But meh, don't see much of this having a bearing on what happens in the autumn.
 
The recent return of midweek games, which is a trend I hope continues, on tours is at least helping. A number of players who were in the midweek team in South Africa last year are now, a year later, in the EPS. That isn't to say playing against a few scratch SA Barbarian sides is what got them picked but it must have helped right.

Why not do an Senior tour and a Saxons tour?

Cos a Senior tour with midweek games and a Saxons tour is probably scraping the barrel, even for us.

I'm not saying do away with the whole system of informing clubs about when players will be away. I'm just saying that England do so much more for the English clubs than any other international union in terms of advising when players will be away, that I don't mind if they creatively use the Saxons to try and get the most out of it.

Like, the reason so few props have been announced is simply for a lack of competition. If there's an injury to Corbs/Marler/Vunipola, Wood is leagues ahead of the competition imo, and it's obvious even now that he should be selected. If there are two injuries, then you'd probably call up Wood and hedge your bets that Wood and the other prop will make it through. Same story with hooker. Buchanan could be a little disappointed, but realistically he wouldn't be used unless there were a number of injuries.

The story isn't the same in the second row. If Launchbury/Lawes get injured, you're looking at Slater/Kruis. If Parling/Attwood get injured, then you're more looking at Robson/Kitchener/Myall. Competition is rife between these guys, so why not keep them in to keep your options open? In fact, you could probably even add Savage and Garvey, just to be sure that if an injury does come around, that you've got the best replacement possible. Unlike at prop, these replacement players have serious short/mid-term England ambitions.

Since the autumn tour is so far away, Lancaster needs to keep his options open in positions with tight competition.

That said, I don't see the need for Clark, Haskell, Johnson in addition to Croft, Wood, Robshaw and still no Fearns. And I personally would have liked to see Buchanan involved as a third hooker. But meh, don't see much of this having a bearing on what happens in the autumn.

Well I do. Because really, this isn't worth annoying anyone one over.

Nor is Nick Wood leagues ahead of Matt Mullan - nor is Joe Marler, or even Mako for that matter - Mullan's rather harshly done by imo. Buchanan, yeah, he's not in the reckoning - but then neither's Paice. Paice only comes in if there's a number of injuries, and he's not going to develop for time in the Saxons. Buchanan might. Lindsay might. Britton might. Haywood might. Yeandle might. We have a crap ton of young hookers... but we have a serious dearth of top quality international hookers. Why aren't we developing one? To accomodate David Paice in case of emergency, when the rules are sufficiently lax that no one will blink if he's rushed straight back in if there's an injury? Or one of the number of other middle aged boot fillers?

Such as George Robson. The man's not big enough. My penis should be closer to England contention than him. He's a waste of a space. See also: Strettle, Monye, Johnson, Clark, Tompkins

Is this likely to be important? No, or at least not in a way we can tell. Is it a good call? No. What does it say about Lancaster? Too conservative still, not ruthless enough, not capable of recognising what test match athleticism is, and too happy about our status at hooker/loosehead.

Don't get me wrong, good squad in general, but as ever there are bad bits.
 
Well I do. Because really, this isn't worth annoying anyone one over.

Nor is Nick Wood leagues ahead of Matt Mullan - nor is Joe Marler, or even Mako for that matter - Mullan's rather harshly done by imo. Buchanan, yeah, he's not in the reckoning - but then neither's Paice. Paice only comes in if there's a number of injuries, and he's not going to develop for time in the Saxons. Buchanan might. Lindsay might. Britton might. Haywood might. Yeandle might. We have a crap ton of young hookers... but we have a serious dearth of top quality international hookers. Why aren't we developing one? To accomodate David Paice in case of emergency, when the rules are sufficiently lax that no one will blink if he's rushed straight back in if there's an injury? Or one of the number of other middle aged boot fillers?

Such as George Robson. The man's not big enough. My penis should be closer to England contention than him. He's a waste of a space. See also: Strettle, Monye, Johnson, Clark, Tompkins

Is this likely to be important? No, or at least not in a way we can tell. Is it a good call? No. What does it say about Lancaster? Too conservative still, not ruthless enough, not capable of recognising what test match athleticism is, and too happy about our status at hooker/loosehead.

Don't get me wrong, good squad in general, but as ever there are bad bits.
The problem with Mullan is that he's been in the Saxons for four years now and hasn't made any headway into the main squad (just the one cap). Corbisiero is the best all-rounder. Vunipola is the top carrier. Marler has perhaps the strongest work rate (which he still has to prove internationally, but we saw a bit of it in Argentina). Wood is an important scrummaging back-up (would personally have him leapfrog Vunipola/Marler when playing guys like Adam Jones if Corbisiero was out). I'm not sure what Mullan would bring that another prop doesn't do better? He's my fifth choice, and perhaps I was harsh in saying that the others are leagues ahead, but I just don't see his utility at the moment, although some props do become really good later on, so I won't discount him just yet.

re: developing hookers, Saxons don't have any games to develop hookers in the next few months. I'd rather postpone the decision to pick one to develop (likely Buchanan) until we have games for them to develop in, rather than risking picking one and dropping him a few months later because the other young hooker is in better form.

Agreed entirely on Robson, and most of the other players. (I like Monye. Wouldn't be my first choice, but not upset with him either. Can deal with Clark.)

As for him being too conservative? I think a clear out of Deacon, Botha, Dowson, Palmer etc. is a pretty forward-thinking move. To also name Eastmond and Wade in the squad, two players who people question defensively for their height, is pretty ballsy. And Nowell straight into the Saxons, so early. More than ever, I feel that this squad has been a shift to a more attacking mindset.
 
So... Jack Nowell into the Saxons squad age 20, 11 games, is so early, but Ben Youngs into full international honours age 20, 17 games, was slow? I am representing your views right here? ;)

There would be no games for the hookers, but there would be a training camp. They could be called into the EPS if there's an injury that will be covered within the actual squad if Lancaster chose. Every little helps. As noted, we are undergoing a rather onerous agreement to get this international access, why are we wasting any of it? Picking someone and finding out their rival was in better form when it actually matters is part and parcel of being the England coach unfortunately. He shouldn't be ducking those calls.

As for Mullan - if years in the Saxons without cracking the main squad is a mark against, what on earth does that say about Wood? Both Mullan and Wood should be in the EPS - or at least, Wood should have if been so if his form hadn't dipped last year. Mullan? He's a lot like Marler actually, except he's bigger and more experienced. I didn't watch that much of Wuss last year, but I saw no problems with his scrummaging, and his penalties conceded - a useful if crude metric for how often a prop gets done - is a measly 10 out of 18, which is the best out of any of the major English looseheads who played most of the season. He made more tackles than Marler and he missed less, and their carrying stats were eerily similar. He is very good in defence, and very athletic too - he famously chased down James Hook. He probably should be ahead of Marler, and if Marler played for Wuss and Mullan for Quins, probably would be.

Lancaster's made some good changes. Most of the EPS looks right now, righter than it has done in some time. But then, it kinda picks itself. Eastmond is the only mildly surprising one, he'd have been crucified if he'd left Wade out - not that I should be overly critical, as plenty of coaches do foul that up. You look into the Saxons, and I see a house half cleared, with plenty of junk players left in, and the chance to push the future only half-taken. Which I feel is pretty conservative.

And I also look at what you're saying here (about this admittedly minor detail) and what you said about Johnson, and feel there appears to be two different metrics at work, and feel the need to pursue it as I'm overly argumentative ;)

edit: As for attacking mindset, I'll believe in it when I see it on a team sheet and on the pitch.

edit edit: As for Nowell, I'm just going to sit here and congratulate my self for calling him as being in England contention back in April.
 
We're all forgetting one thing about Nowell......*cough*scrumcap*cough*
:D

I'm very happy to see him in the Saxons - very very good player, and shows that the management have got their eye on exciting back-three talent (though the inclusion of Yarde and Wade, and then May and Elliot, shows that too).
 
So... Jack Nowell into the Saxons squad age 20, 11 games, is so early, but Ben Youngs into full international honours age 20, 17 games, was slow? I am representing your views right here? ;)
I think I ballsed that one up. I remember the frustation of Care playing instead of Youngs when Youngs was awesome and Care was dud, and thought Care was starting. But it turns out Youngs has been first choice pretty much from the start, so I concede there I guess.

There would be no games for the hookers, but there would be a training camp. They could be called into the EPS if there's an injury that will be covered within the actual squad if Lancaster chose. Every little helps. As noted, we are undergoing a rather onerous agreement to get this international access, why are we wasting any of it? Picking someone and finding out their rival was in better form when it actually matters is part and parcel of being the England coach unfortunately. He shouldn't be ducking those calls.
Is there a training camp? I was working on the assumption that there aren't any, because there are no games? It would be a bit of a p'take to take away these players from their clubs for any substantial time when the season is in full swing and there are no games to be played.

As for Mullan - if years in the Saxons without cracking the main squad is a mark against, what on earth does that say about Wood? Both Mullan and Wood should be in the EPS - or at least, Wood should have if been so if his form hadn't dipped last year. Mullan? He's a lot like Marler actually, except he's bigger and more experienced. I didn't watch that much of Wuss last year, but I saw no problems with his scrummaging, and his penalties conceded - a useful if crude metric for how often a prop gets done - is a measly 10 out of 18, which is the best out of any of the major English looseheads who played most of the season. He made more tackles than Marler and he missed less, and their carrying stats were eerily similar. He is very good in defence, and very athletic too - he famously chased down James Hook. He probably should be ahead of Marler, and if Marler played for Wuss and Mullan for Quins, probably would be.
Perhaps true. I never really rated Marler tbh, but consigned it to being that he's young, will probably improve, and shouldn't do too much harm being behind Corbisiero and Vunipola.

Lancaster's made some good changes. Most of the EPS looks right now, righter than it has done in some time. But then, it kinda picks itself. Eastmond is the only mildly surprising one, he'd have been crucified if he'd left Wade out - not that I should be overly critical, as plenty of coaches do foul that up. You look into the Saxons, and I see a house half cleared, with plenty of junk players left in, and the chance to push the future only half-taken. Which I feel is pretty conservative.
When has a squad picking itself ever stopped coaches ballsing selection up? :p

I've only watched England since 2008, and I remember all too well the head-scratchers that Ashton and Johnson threw up. I'm just pleased we're getting closer and closer to a squad which resembles the best talent around.
 
3 days. Not much, but not nothing either. I don't know what they do at them, both squads will be with England for three days fairly soon.

And yeah, I agreed that plenty of coaches balls seemingly obvious selections. It's why I don't like using it as a major point of criticism (although again, I could quote you using it as a criticism as well).

And I'm not sure I'd bet on Marler having slid behind Vunipola... I mean, logically he should have, but... besides, I don't really trust Vunipola starting yet either. And given Corbs injury profile, both Marler and Vunipola are closer to the match day squad than I'd like.
 
I agree that the Saxons squad looks very confused.

It's either our second team or it's a development side, it needs to be decided which...
 
He probably should be ahead of Marler, and if Marler played for Wuss and Mullan for Quins, probably would be.

Ah, well thank god he's sorted now eh - being at Wasps and all :P He'll be straight into the EPS :D

Also Peat, I don't entirely agree over Hartley - In terms of his mettle as a player, he's still up there as one of the two best 'English' hookers - and it's quite likely that missing out on lions will put a real fire in his belly to make up for that and really achieve something with England. Yes, that's speculative thinking - but bear in mind Lancaster had to have a one on one chat with him about the whole thing - and if he decided Hartley was mentally up to it, then in my opinion he still on paper deserves to be in the EPS - that's just looking at the core facts about him and our other hookers. Webber did look good in Arge, definitely. He actually looked a hell of a lot bigger than I ever noticed him being while at Wasps :p. Maybe excessive weight-gain for rehab, or maybe I'm just unobservant(more likely) - but if indeed Lancaster is deliberately making players work longer with their clubs in return for England honours, then the same needs to go for Webber as it has for Wade and co. - Webber has not strung enough games together to be in contention - I haven't checked stats and may not be backed up on this - but having been injured he hasn't had the time to build the consistency needed to push for an EPS place.

Oh and Peat, I'm thoroughly ashamed of myself for Marler/Stevens-gate; I don't think I can bear to add to that the shame of 'TRF's Best Poster' - the shame would be unbearable :p.
 
Here is a match day 23 for your amusement, I have nothing else better to do at work:

1 Coles
2 Youngs
3 Corbs
4 Parling
5 Launchbury
6 Robshaw (c)
7 Kvesic
8 Morgan

9 Care
10 Burns
11 Yarde
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tuilagi
14 Wade
15 Brown

16 Paice
17 Hartley (ugh)
18 M.Vunnipola
19 Attwood
20 B.Vunnipola
21Youngs
22 Flood
23 Foden/Eastmond


Combination of what I'd like to see and what I think Lancaster will pick. Thoughts?
 
New rule, England front 3 must all have names ending in 's' and if they don't then we'll bloomin' well give them one.

This is what happens when I end up on TRF while trying to avoid my boss noticing, I end up looking like a mug.
 
Here is a match day 23 for your amusement, I have nothing else better to do at work:

1 Coles
2 Youngs
3 Corbs
4 Parling
5 Launchbury
6 Robshaw (c)
7 Kvesic
8 Morgan

9 Care
10 Burns
11 Yarde
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tuilagi
14 Wade
15 Brown

16 Paice
17 Hartley (ugh)
18 M.Vunnipola
19 Attwood
20 B.Vunnipola
21Youngs
22 Flood
23 Foden/Eastmond


Combination of what I'd like to see and what I think Lancaster will pick. Thoughts?
I think you meant Wilson instead of Paice. ^_^

I'd go with a virtually identical team, except no Billy Vunipola on the bench. Of all the backrowers we have around, Morgan is the most certain of his place. He's fit enough for full 80s now, and Wood and Kvesic have played 8 and can fill in in case of injury. I'm edging towards having Croft take the 6 shirt and putting Robshaw or Wood on the bench.
 
Not necessarily my favoured team, but this could be interesting:

1 Corbs
2 Youngs
3 Wilson
4 Parling
5 Attwood
6 Robshaw (c)
7 Kvesic
8 Morgan

9 Care
10 Burns
11 Yarde
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tuilagi
14 Wade
15 Foden

16 Hartley (ugh)
17 Cole
18 M.Vunipola
19 Launchbury (covering flanker/lock)
20 B.Vunipola
21 Youngs
22 Flood
23 Eastmond
 
TRF_Olyy Three hookers is an audacious shout

I think you meant Wilson instead of Paice. ^_^

I'd go with a virtually identical team, except no Billy Vunipola on the bench. Of all the backrowers we have around, Morgan is the most certain of his place. He's fit enough for full 80s now, and Wood and Kvesic have played 8 and can fill in in case of injury. I'm edging towards having Croft take the 6 shirt and putting Robshaw or Wood on the bench.

Yup, yet again the perils of constructing your team at work. I did indeed mean Wilson and I believe I may have got the props in the wrong order...

Regarding who benches for the back row I think a lot of it will depend on Premiership form. If Vunnipola comes out and has a blistering pre-autumn stint I think Lancaster will have to give him a chance from the bench at least once. However having Wood on the bench who can cover the whole back row would perhaps be a safer option. I picked Robshaw at 6 because of the comments make by Nick Evans about him probably switching there for Quins. I don't think he'll lose the captaincy (Wood didn't show any greater leadership during the summer) and as Kvesic is the best 7 in the EPS I'd love to see him start.

1 Corbs
2 Youngs
3 Wilson
4 Parling
5 Attwood
6 Robshaw (c)
7 Kvesic
8 Morgan

9 Care
10 Burns
11 Yarde
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tuilagi
14 Wade
15 Foden

16 Hartley (ugh)
17 Cole
18 M.Vunipola
19 Launchbury (covering flanker/lock)
20 B.Vunipola
21 Youngs
22 Flood
23 Eastmond

Brave starting with Foden. I think a fully fit, on form Foden would be chosen over anyone else but right now Brown has the shirt and deserves at few starts to show us what he can do. That, IMO, leaves Foden and Eastmond to battle it out for the bench. I think Eastmond might win that one purely as he is more versatile.

Also, I approve of the '(ugh)' next to Hartley's name, we've started a trend.
 
Leaving aside flexibility issues, Vunipola doesn't deserve to make the bench at the moment.
 
Care to elaborate? I'm not a fan of his per se but, flexibility aside, surely he deserves a chance?

Well firstly as you touch upon yourself - it's not right to have two out and out number 8's in a 23. Neither can play other back-row positions.
Billy massively dropped off last season - his head just seemed to drop after his transfer was announced, and he just didn't seem to be all there for the rest of the season. He's now landed himself in a situation where that sort of form will not be good enough to get him gametime at Saracens - the competition is just stronger.

Where he needs to improve: It's all very well crashing the ball up and trying to smash people but you've got to look after the ball - he loses it quite often - rather falatauesque :D - , all the more so becase opposition teams smash him in pairs to dislodge the ball. He's also buying in quite a bit to the pacific islanders' go out and smash people in defence approach - which emphasises impact at the expense of discipline, with Billy often offside or going too high. He's not a smart player (yet at least) and has lost wasps matches this season because at the end of the game when we just need to keep it tight, he breaks the line, or concedes an offside - these are things which I belive only time and experience will change, so I just feel it's 18 months too early for him. If he can stake a claim to a starting place at Saraacens - subject of course to their rotation policy - then that will be the first acid test of his credentials for England. first things first, I say.
 

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