F1 Racing

[Reiser99]

Some extra musings if 15.3 overrides 48.12 it overrides 48.13 as well. Reality is 15.3 is about safety not racing and is just saying he gets to decide when not how. 48.12 is about procedure for applying 15.3. 48.13 can't overrides 48.12 because if a car crashed under the safety car it needs to stay out.

Any argument Masi didn't know the rules fails because he was applying them as presented then decided he could just ignore them.

The issue for isn't about if Masi knowingly applied the rules incorrectly in a way materially disadvantaged an aggrived party. Its about what can be done about that. Whilst common sense says you roll back the race one lap I don't how any 3rd party has the power to do that. In terms of race result all they can do is void it leading to the same result from a championship perspective.

What can be done is Masi being fired for gross misconduct and if it gets into real courts huge payout to Mercedes and Hamilton for lost revenue.

This is going to be fun....

Yep. Trying to think of the equivalent in other sports and struggling. Difference is it's not like it's a penalty in rugby that goes against you when you are 14-0 up because although the decision may be wrong you still have your lead.

Hamilton had a clear advantage in the race and everything he had earned was wiped away by Masi's arbitrary decision.

Best comparison I've seen is it's like a football team winning 3-0 then at 89 minutes the ref stops the game for an injury, allows the losing team to sub for a completely fresh team, then changes the score back to nil-nil, gives the ball to the side that was losing inside their opposition's penalty box whilst at the same time ordering the defenders out the way and then say next goal wins with no extra time.

 

[ncurd]

Yep. Trying to think of the equivalent in other sports and struggling. Difference is it's not like it's a penalty in rugby that goes against you when you are 14-0 up because although the decision may be wrong you still have your lead.

Hamilton had a clear advantage in the race and everything he had earned was wiped away by Masi's arbitrary decision.

Best comparison I've seen is it's like a football team winning 3-0 then at 89 minutes the ref stops the game for an injury, allows the losing team to sub for a completely fresh team, then changes the score back to nil-nil, gives the ball to the side that was losing inside their opposition's penalty box whilst at the same time ordering the defenders out the way and then say next goal wins with no extra time.

I think that's a little OTT. If Latifi's car had been cleared a lap earlier normal restart protocol would of definitely been applied and in that instance what we saw happened happens. It sucks but we've all seen it in F1 before.

The issue is Masi has two choices because it didn't get cleared earlier. Either start with lapped cars in place or finish behind the safety car. He chose the first and should of explained to Horner if he didn't do that they'd finish under safety car as per restart protocols. Which would Christian prefer?

I equated it yesterday to Gazure restarting a match when he shouldn't have but it being the 80th minuite and Wales needing 5 points to win. With Gazure knowing he shouldn't restart the match.

Like I've seen bad decisions before we all have but not when the person knew the correct decision and made it in a way screwed the opposition.

 

[die_mole]

So obviously hate mail is bad, but I'm really considering writing a letter to liberty media demanding as a share holder they use their muscle to do bad things to masi.

At this point I don't care about the ***le, in my personal record book everyone is a loser yesterday, but I don't know if I'll ever get over how incompetent masi is.

 

[Jakedood]

I think that's a little OTT. If Latifi's car had been cleared a lap earlier normal restart protocol would of definitely been applied and in that instance what we saw happened happens. It sucks but we've all seen it in F1 before.

The issue is Masi has two choices because it didn't get cleared earlier. Either start with lapped cars in place or finish behind the safety car. He chose the first and should of explained to Horner if he didn't do that they'd finish under safety car as per restart protocols. Which would Christian prefer?

I equated it yesterday to Gazure restarting a match when he shouldn't have but it being the 80th minuite and Wales needing 5 points to win. With Gazure knowing he shouldn't restart the match.

Like I've seen bad decisions before we all have but not when the person knew the correct decision and made it in a way screwed the opposition.

I think for me the biggest issue is you can tell there was an overriding desire from Masi to make the last lap a spectacle, which was never going to be the case pre-safety car, and if the lapped cars rules had been followed correctly. In acting in such a way, he did get the entertaining finish, but I dont think had Hamilton finished on top due to the lapped cars remaining there (as should have been the case) or with the safety car, Red Bull would have had much of an argument as he was far and away the faster driver on the day

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Some extra musings if 15.3 overrides 48.12 it overrides 48.13 as well. Reality is 15.3 is about safety not racing and is just saying he gets to decide when not how. 48.12 is about procedure for applying 15.3. 48.13 can't overrides 48.12 because if a car crashed under the safety car it needs to stay out.

Any argument Masi didn't know the rules fails because he was applying them as presented then decided he could just ignore them.

The issue for isn't about if Masi knowingly applied the rules incorrectly in a way materially disadvantaged an aggrived party. Its about what can be done about that. Whilst common sense says you roll back the race one lap I don't how any 3rd party has the power to do that. In terms of race result all they can do is void it leading to the same result from a championship perspective.

What can be done is Masi being fired for gross misconduct and if it gets into real courts huge payout to Mercedes and Hamilton for lost revenue.

This is going to be fun....

I can't see this ever reaching a courtroom. There'll be a strong, tiered arbitration clause in place and I just don't see a case for Merc to reasonably take it all the way past that. I don't see any basis for taking the win from RB other than voiding the race which materially changes nothing and isn't fair on the other 8 teams.

I think at most there'll be some undisclosed payout, that no one will likely hear about and Masi and the FIA will "part ways". It's going to be very unsatisfactory but I honestly don't see how it can be treated differently to a refereeing/TMO error in a field sport.

 

[die_mole]

I can't see this ever reaching a courtroom. There'll be a strong, tiered arbitration clause in place and I just don't see a case for Merc to reasonably take it all the way past that. I don't see any basis for taking the win from RB other than voiding the race which materially changes nothing and isn't fair on the other 8 teams.

I think at most there'll be some undisclosed payout, that no one will likely hear about and Masi and the FIA will "part ways". It's going to be very unsatisfactory but I honestly don't see how it can be treated differently to a refereeing/TMO error in a field sport.

Not directly related to your point but what is getting lost in this is how unfair the restart was to Sainz and Ricciardo. All the lapped cars get to unlap themselves instead of the ones in front of them.

I don't see it going to court and I don't think things will change unless things get ugly and Toto starts throwing around his political weight.

At this point I don't think Masi is going to leave. They'll stick with him to save face.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Most apt comparison I can think of to rugby would be -

A couple years ago, before you could restart with a lineout from a pen after the final whistle. Merc are winning 6-0, a crowd member comes onto the pitch. Ref gives penalty to RB - they kick to the corner, have a lineout (not legal at the time, but the ref wants "the spectacle"). RB bring on a whole new front row and maul it over to win the game.

It's not a refereeing mistake that is up for interpretation, it's the race director changing the rules with clear bias to wanting to bleed a little more comepetition out of the race rather than sticking to the rules. If the rules are followed correctly, Merc 100% win one scenario (finish under the SC) and more than likely win the other (Max has to overtake 5 more cars).

Voiding the race is a bad look and Merc have the pretty solid argument that, had procedures been followed (Masi allows all the cars to overtake) that they win the WDC. Now, that would be a long legal battle and make the sport look even worse - would it be worth it?

If this was the WCC they 100% go all the way because thats where the real money is, the WDC is mostly pride. A crap end to the season, but an entirely predictable one considering the FIA's record this year.

 

[ncurd]

At this point I don't think Masi is going to leave. They'll stick with him to save face.

The problem is his situation is pretty much untenable. Apparently behind the scenes he has little allies with how he's conducted this season. The FIA may want to back him but it's actually finding some willing to support him. He'll probably be promoted out of the way, might be another season from now but it'll happen. He certainly won't be in the job for life like Whiting.

It really is a question of far Daimler want this to go (think it's out the F1 teams hands now) which is why I agree a backroom deal will done once this second appeal is quashed.

F1 have just lost an engineer supplier they don't want to be down to 1.5 which is what could happen if this gets particularly nasty.

 

[die_mole]

"There's a requirement in the sporting regulations to wave all the lapped cars past," Masi said.

Masi explains reason for late Eifel GP Safety Car

Formula 1 Race Director Michael Masi says concerns over the location of Lando Norris' stricken McLaren, and the risk of

www.motorsportweek.com

Lol

 

[Bada-Bing!]

 

[Reiser99]

"There's a requirement in the sporting regulations to wave all the lapped cars past," Masi said.

Masi explains reason for late Eifel GP Safety Car

Formula 1 Race Director Michael Masi says concerns over the location of Lando Norris' stricken McLaren, and the risk of

www.motorsportweek.com

Lol

I think only the most blinkered of fans and actual Red Bull staff like Horner think the outcome was fair. Anyone with any sense of integrity would admit that what happened was wrong and Masi ****** up massively. He only did it to give Max a shot at the end and make the end of the race more exciting. He can't claim he followed the rules properly because Sainz had lapped cars in front of him, where as Max didn't. It only benefitted Max.

I read one article that said he was kingmaker no matter what and was damned if he did and damned if he didn't. Even if that is the case, one option involved following the rules and one option didn't. He chose to make a spectacle and undermine the race in doing so. He only has himself to blame for either a huge **** up or bowing to Red Bull pressure, which there obviously was.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I think I saw a tweet saying Horner was screaming down the radio. Teams having instant access to the race director has to change. I think Masi is bad at his job but it's an unenviable position having 10 team bosses, two of whom are entitled, ego maniacs who think they should run the show, with a direct line to you while trying to manage an F1 race.

 

[Reiser99]

I think I saw a tweet saying Horner was screaming down the radio. Teams having instant access to the race director has to change. I think Masi is bad at his job but it's an unenviable position having 10 team bosses, two of whom are entitled, ego maniacs who think they should run the show, with a direct line to you while trying to manage an F1 race.

Definitely need to stop teams having a direct line. They should be informed of decisions and maximum be allowed to request to speak to the officials if not it is left for after the race.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

I think I saw a tweet saying Horner was screaming down the radio. Teams having instant access to the race director has to change. I think Masi is bad at his job but it's an unenviable position having 10 team bosses, two of whom are entitled, ego maniacs who think they should run the show, with a direct line to you while trying to manage an F1 race.

That is nuts. That's like having football managers or rugby coaches having a direct mic to the ref during match screaming at them to make decisions for their teams.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I think only the most blinkered of fans and actual Red Bull staff like Horner think the outcome was fair. Anyone with any sense of integrity would admit that what happened was wrong and Masi ****** up massively. He only did it to give Max a shot at the end and make the end of the race more exciting. He can't claim he followed the rules properly because Sainz had lapped cars in front of him, where as Max didn't. It only benefitted Max.

I read one article that said he was kingmaker no matter what and was damned if he did and damned if he didn't. Even if that is the case, one option involved following the rules and one option didn't. He chose to make a spectacle and undermine the race in doing so. He only has himself to blame for either a huge **** up or bowing to Red Bull pressure, which there obviously was.

The issue is one outcome would have been essentially maintaining the status quo (Hamilton was leading, Verstappen didn't look like he would catch up and still had backmarkers to pass) and would have been in line with standard procedure, the other was actively changing procedure and the relative position of the cars. He could not have realistically been blamed if Verstappen started behind backmarkers because that is what would have happened anyway. Red Bull could not have argued that the SC disadvantaged them in any way as they did not look like catching up. Merc can definitely argue the safety car and the actions of Massi massively disadvantaged them. This is also why having more than 2 teams / drivers realistically competing is so important. Had Ferrari also been in the hunt going in to this race, no way Massi would have let just the cars in front of Verstappen go.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

So seeing as everyone is trying to share their sporting equivalents, here's mine:

Wales v Italy 2007 except times up, the ref/TMO says Wales can't kick it out but they do and the ref/TMO let's them play anyway. It's basically giving Max time he didn't/shouldn't have had. Bunching up the field because of a crash is a legitimate part of the sport, as are desperate attempts to gain an advantage like putting on new tyres, so that's not really relevant but I suppose you could add that Italy emptied their bench at halftime and Wales used their bench on 75mins and Italy had already conceded an unlucky try where they did nothing wrong.

There'd be uproar and calls for the ref/TMO to be dropped for sure, and they probably wouldn't ref internationally any time soon after.

Gary Lineker's tweet about it is a bit more tribal.

 

[miccloarch]

Mercedes and Hamilton fans tears right now

It's over. Verstappen won. The FIA will never rule against itself and an outside court or arbitration or whatever else will never overrule a sporting result. LOOOOOOOOOL at the desperation.

Schumi's the goat.

 

[ncurd]

Mercedes and Hamilton fans tears right now

It's over. Verstappen won. The FIA will never rule against itself and an outside court or arbitration or whatever else will never overrule a sporting result. LOOOOOOOOOL at the desperation.

Schumi's the goat.

 

[miccloarch]

Schumacher would arguably have done better in the same car. Can we at least agree it's not that clear cut either way as 99% of Hamilton fans born after 1999 think it is?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]