Ireland World Cup 2019 Thread aka "Quarter Final 4"

[Lion]

Schmidt holding a press conference today. He usually only talks to the media on the team announcement.

Talk of Best being sent home and a new captain being named. I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[Reiser99]

Wow that would be Eddie Jones level of ruthless.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I doubt it. Gatland and him have discussed the teams for the weekend so there's no reason to hold back the team announcement.

 

[rugga658]

The result was bad but these things happen. NZ lost by 20 something points a few weeks ago and won 36 - 0 the next week and they're well into their season!


Rugby is one of those games where if you have a weak link somewhere the opposition can have a field day exploiting itwas worth about 20-30 points.

At the weekend England exploited Ireland's shambolic lineout and defence and well as Ireland's general sluggishness around the pitch. Major weaknesses but they are areas that can be improved.

I would agree with you if this was a one off

England twice in last 6 months have annihilated Ireland with Brutal Physicality & Intensity

This has also been replicated in club game with Saracens crushing Munster & Leinster in 2nd half

Ireland once you front up to their pack appear to have little conviction and cunning in their attack

I would also add their game in Cardiff vs Wales in 2019 Six Nations

To me it looks Irish have been found out and there's no plan B beyond a few gadget plays
That won't cut in Japan

 

[Leinster Fan]

So reading online, one big idea floating around is that Ireland are holding something back for the world cup. I'm interested what people think about this because while Ireland have some fantastic players, even the best players need time to adapt and develop a new system or tactic. It's different to a one off tactic in an individual game because the players have to execute a new game plan accurately for a whole world cup. For me if this is the case it's extremely risky and if Ireland struggle against Wales, it will also be on the back of some losing momentum. Also quite a few players who are considered first team players have been struggling since the 6N's. Best, Stander, Murray, Sexton for example. Again when you have players in a loss of form and confidence then asking them to execute something new accurately with little game time practice is asking a lot.

Basically do Irish fans think it's a credible idea that Schmidt's holding some cards back and how do you feel about it?

There'll be some new set plays but other than that I doubt it. I'm fairly confident we'll be better at the world cup but it won't be because Joe is after unveiling a grand masterplan.


Best needed to go after the Australia tour. He should have been phased out during November and then we needed to go through the six nations with other options. One of the things that went unnoticed post match in the all blacks game was that he was a genuine liability in open play in the first half. Whatever about captaincy material we're basically playing with seven forwards at this point and that's not going to stand up against a team with a pack like England's, even before you factor in that fact that there are multiple other players horribly out of form. I'd rate Rhys Ruddock as the best captain available, but O'Mahony, Ryan, Henderson and Stander could all do it as well. Keeping Best this long was a mistake but we can't fix that now, the best thing to do is to move on and make the best of what we have.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I would agree with you if this was a one off

England twice in last 6 months have annihilated Ireland with Brutal Physicality & Intensity

This has also been replicated in club game with Saracens crushing Munster & Leinster in 2nd half

Ireland once you front up to their pack appear to have little conviction and cunning in their attack

I would also add their game in Cardiff vs Wales in 2019 Six Nations

To me it looks Irish have been found out and there's no plan B beyond a few gadget plays
That won't cut in Japan

This still isn't unprecedented. In 2016 when England more or less did the same thing and beat us a few personnel changes were all that was needed to beat SA, Australia and NZ over the rest of the season. Same in 2017 after Wales and Scotland beat us prior to the England win.

Ireland haven't been "found out" any more than any other team, it's a few out of form/past it players not being able to execute to the standard required to execute the gameplan.




Joe Schmidt: "If there is any external noise about Rory Best, there is no internal noise of that nature. "There are no decisions that have been made in that direction. If guys perform better than any other player that played last weekend, there is always a contest."

So Best will go to Japan, hope here that it's not as a starter though. I'd be fine with him as third choice in all honesty.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I would agree with you if this was a one off

England twice in last 6 months have annihilated Ireland with Brutal Physicality & Intensity

This has also been replicated in club game with Saracens crushing Munster & Leinster in 2nd half

Ireland once you front up to their pack appear to have little conviction and cunning in their attack

I would also add their game in Cardiff vs Wales in 2019 Six Nations

To me it looks Irish have been found out and there's no plan B beyond a few gadget plays
That won't cut in Japan

Ire won't be close to that bad again. But coming on the back of the English and Welsh 6N games it does suggest a soft centre.

Best's an obvious and easy target. But if I was Irish I'd probably be far more concerned about whether my half backs could ever regain their former glories.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Ire won't be close to that bad again. But coming on the back of the English and Welsh 6N games it does suggest a soft centre.

Best's an obvious and easy target. But if I was Irish I'd probably be far more concerned about whether my half backs could ever regain their former glories.

Sexton was strong in every knockout game he played for Leinster last season so I don't know why that'd be more concerning than a continued system failure in the pack to be honest.

Murray is less important once Sexton is there but looked ok before the head injury.

 

[Amiga500]

Not overeating captaincy more using Schmidts mentality. And why should Best get a stay of execution for 1 week. He is struggling for a long time more so than our backrow lads.
And not disagreeing with you just saying will Schmidt drop the players off form

'cos I'd likely drop him out of the squad altogether and go with Scannell, Cronin and Herring.

The weather in Japan is looking like 25 degC at start of tournament dropping to 20 degC at the end of it. That is going to take a disproportionate toll on older players anyway.

 

[rugga658]

This still isn't unprecedented. In 2016 when England more or less did the same thing and beat us a few personnel changes were all that was needed to beat SA, Australia and NZ over the rest of the season. Same in 2017 after Wales and Scotland beat us prior to the England win.

Ireland haven't been "found out" any more than any other team, it's a few out of form/past it players not being able to execute to the standard required to execute the gameplan.

My point is this: Isn't the gameplan the problem in itself?

Attritional possession based style with ageing/injury prone players is falling apart at the seams.....

England have replenished themselves with likes of Curry Underhill + Fit Vunipola Tuillagi, Watson
add much need dynamism in last 12-18 months

Irish have largely stuck with the same players beyond integrating Beirne who might not even make
the squad!!!

To paraphrase Stephen Ferris: Irish pack don't need any more honest donkeys like Kleyn"

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

My point is this: Isn't the gameplan the problem in itself?

Attritional possession based style with ageing/injury prone players is falling apart at the seams.....

England have replenished themselves with likes of Curry Underhill + Fit Vunipola Tuillagi, Watson
add much need dynamism in last 12-18 months

Irish have largely stuck with the same players beyond integrating Beirne who might not even make
the squad!!!

To paraphrase Stephen Ferris: Irish pack don't need any more honest donkeys like Kleyn"

What? So the gameplan is the problem but changing personnel to add to the gameplan is the solution? How is that any different to what I said bar the sensationalism and glorifying an England team in an Irish thread?

 

[rugga658]

What? So the gameplan is the problem but changing personnel to add to the gameplan is the solution? How is that any different to what I said bar the sensationalism and glorifying an England team in an Irish thread?

There's isn't alot of difference tbw what you're saying & what I'm saying....

My point is that Beirne is exactly the kind of player Irish should be playing:

X Factor talent with unique skillset as a 2nd row/#6 in Ireland

Irish Gameplan is problematic but it's exacerbated by

too many plodders & hard working donkeys in the pack who offer little around the pack

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

There's isn't alot of difference tbw what you're saying & what I'm saying....

My point is that Beirne is exactly the kind of player Irish should be playing:

X Factor talent with unique skillset as a 2nd row/#6 in Ireland

Irish Gameplan is problematic but it's exacerbated by

too many plodders & hard working donkeys in the pack who offer little around the pack

The gameplan isn't problematic when the right players are there but yeah I agree the personnel in the pack is the problem, it has been since the first England game.

Saturday isn't indicative of the what will be put out in the world cup, you've got Sexton, Henshaw and Earls to come back from ****ly injuries. It was an experimental second row, if Kleyn features again without an injury to force his hand Joe is making a big mistake. Best being replaced as well as at least one backrow needs to happen also.

Schmidt has history of making changes when necessary, I don't think he'll be afraid to do it with the biggest tournament of his career on the line.

 

[Leinster Fan]

Wouldn't say the gameplan is the problem, there isn't a better one for us out there really I don't think. The main issue is that Joe has stayed a bit too loyal to some of the guys in the pack when they've been out of form and has ignored , it's hard to dominate the opposition when your hooker is a nonentity in terms of game impact, your blindside flanker is busy putting up ridiculously low tackle/carry stats, and your 8 is horribly out of form. Beirne is very good but also easy to stop, once a team can neutralise his jacking threat as top opposition generally has (Leinster did an absolute job on him in his last season for the Scarlets for example) and you're left with a decent second row but nothing special. Conan has been integrated as well and I think at this point 80% of people think he should be starting, consistently outperforming Stander for two years has to count for something. The issue is that the team has grown a bit stale and I actually do think there are personell solutions to most of our problems.

The good thing is that this loss will have forced Schmidt to take an honest look at our options and make the necessary changes, a team with Henshaw, Earls, Sexton, Conan, Ryan and a hooker that actually does something will make a massive difference.

 

[Hanley!]

Some players have performed worse than others this year, and personnel changes are needed, but I maintain that there has to be some problems with the game plan if everybody is under-performing. And almost everybody did against England, and for our key defeats in the Six Nations. It's hard to know how well some of these players would be performing if they were integrated with a team that was firing the way it was supposed to be.

I want to see some changes to the team as much as most here, but I'm a little worried that the personnel debate will become a distraction. And that we'll field a better team in the World Cup that will still under-deliver due to being overly predictable and lacking invention or cohesion.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Some players have performed worse than others this year, and personnel changes are needed, but I maintain that there has to be some problems with the game plan if everybody is under-performing. And almost everybody did against England, and for our key defeats in the Six Nations. It's hard to know how well some of these players would be performing if they were integrated with a team that was firing the way it was supposed to be.

I want to see some changes to the team as much as most here, but I'm a little worried that the personnel debate will become a distraction. And that we'll field a better team in the World Cup that will still under-deliver due to being overly predictable and lacking invention or cohesion.

Everyone knew exactly how we were going to play in 2018 too, it was not really different to the way we played in 2017 or 2016. A gameplan doesn't go from world beating to useless in three months, if we can get Sexton the platform he's good enough, and has good enough players around him to beat anyone.


BOD and Heaslip backing Best on OTB this morning, both seemed to think the backrow needs a big shake up though.

 

[big ginger 8]

Everyone knew exactly how we were going to play in 2018 too, it was not really different to the way we played in 2017 or 2016. A gameplan doesn't go from world beating to useless in three months, if we can get Sexton the platform he's good enough, and has good enough players around him to beat anyone.


BOD and Heaslip backing Best on OTB this morning, both seemed to think the backrow needs a big shake up though.

Think we're basically guaranteed the backrow shake up this week. The 42 are saying PO'M is basically guaranteed to captain this week but from openside and Conan basically has to get gametime. There's also been some reports Beirne will be playing 6.

 

[Leinster Fan]

POM isn't an international openside. Has nothing near the pace or the tackle count required to be a serious option there.

 

[munstermuffin]

POM isn't an international openside. Has nothing near the pace or the tackle count required to be a serious option there.

In fairness he has actually played excellent there in the past when required when moving across in games as well as the start there. So definitely worth trying especially when it is becoming very likely he is 2nd choice 7 behind VdF I feel. And well who else is a 7 of that standard. It seems Rudock (a player I like) is simply a filler in and not rated high enough at this level to be a satarter in this team, Jordi is not a 7 of this level, Tommy O'Donnell is the more natural 7 of all and not up to this level.

But reading from it all I'd guess Ruddock and Jordi are fighting for a bag carrier spot,
Conan has a big shot as does Scannell and I feel Beirne will go as a 5th lock/option at 6 with POM a live option at 7.

 

[profitius]

POM isn't an international openside. Has nothing near the pace or the tackle count required to be a serious option there.

Hus role is to defend wider channels and compete for the ball on the ground and in the air.


He also played on the wing a few times so he must have some pace.