Irish Rugby - The Isolation Years

[munstermuffin]

Fair enough. Still not enough players called up. Baird and more props need to be involved. If Porter plays I'll lose it, Leinster need him more than Ireland need against Georgia. Same goes with Healy especially if Byrne is also struggling. Flogging our props just increases the chances of someone going 80 against Montpeilliers and no one in the Irish setup wants to see that.

Seems all the likea of Byrne, Casey Baird and rest were told prove it in Europe then we will consider capping

 

[Leinster Fan]

Seems all the likea of Byrne, Casey Baird and rest were told prove it in Europe then we will consider capping

Baird has shown more in Europe than either Connors or Keenan.

 

[munstermuffin]

Baird has shown more in Europe than either Connors or Keenan.

Don't dispute that at all just seems that is message. I can only speak for Munster lads and Casey and Healy have shown in every test put forward to them that they ooze that ability to make the level required.

Also at 15 Mike Haley has probably shown and cemented last night that he is the closest and best version to be near Rob Kearney as 15 in this country. Not saying he should be starting or in squad although his form would support him. But his reading from the back and marshalling of that space is on a level different to the rest. But he would not have the same attacking ability that rest had and Keenan has not been poor there.

Like vs Georgia it looks like Healy, POM, Possibly Ryan, Porter, Murray, possibly Sexton and Earls will play.

What will we learn.
Healy is flogged and well need to try new blood.
POM - After Doris is probably the form backrower in squad but where are we going like what will we learn about POM here.
James Ryan - Is in poor form and has played alot. He needs a break even this week to recharge the batteries.
Porter - Has done well but played alot. Needs to be managed and well this is where we need to develop depth
Murray/Sexton - Again what will be achieved here when we have younger talent and need to learn. JGP and Byrne are not the answer against top teams either so again try learn.
Earls - Again possibly our best back last week but is 33. In todays game you need to look with 1 eye on RWC. He will very unlikely be there and isn't on Lions radar so effectively it like blocking a lads development who will be there.

 

[big ginger 8]

Ryan is quite possibly the least likely player to be involved against Georgia why do you think he could be? Sexton is also mentioned as still rehabbing so pretty unlikely. We'll know the team tomorrow anyway.

I've stated on here I'd really have like a number of players to be brought in but honestly it probably isn't the worst thing that they haven't. Casey and Healy will probably gain a lot more from last night than playing in a hodge podge team against Georgia. Similar story with Byrne playing Scarlets this week.

Overall, Farrell hasn't been afraid to give inexperienced guys a go. I'm not going to crucify him for not calling up a bunch of guys from outside of the squad for one game. If players keep up their level of play and get to play bigger matches and there's no change for the 6N then that'll be another story.

 

[munstermuffin]

Ryan is quite possibly the least likely player to be involved against Georgia why do you think he could be? Sexton is also mentioned as still rehabbing so pretty unlikely. We'll know the team tomorrow anyway.

I've stated on here I'd really have like a number of players to be brought in but honestly it probably isn't the worst thing that they haven't. Casey and Healy will probably gain a lot more from last night than playing in a hodge podge team against Georgia. Similar story with Byrne playing Scarlets this week.

Overall, Farrell hasn't been afraid to give inexperienced guys a go. I'm not going to crucify him for not calling up a bunch of guys from outside of the squad for one game. If players keep up their level of play and get to play bigger matches and there's no change for the 6N then that'll be another story.

Based on Farrells comments he said Ryan may be allowed continue. Sexton if fit would be involved.

It's not about lack of call ups more the lads he is testing are not up to it and in a tournament where it means nothing and there is no seeding at risk we have failed to develop at 10, 1, 3, 2nd row in a certain way. Those are facts.

 

[Groundhog]

Anyone else seriously ****** off with our coaches reaction to the loss in the media and nonsense about not giving out cheap caps?

 

[big ginger 8]

Well I'll hold my hand up and say I was wrong about James Ryan anyway haha.

2020 is some year. Also possible reason I can see that makes any sense is that they want him to get more experience as captain. Possibly resting him against Scotland so he's good to go for Europe.

 

[Groundhog]

Well I'll hold my hand up and say I was wrong about James Ryan anyway haha.

2020 is some year. Also possible reason I can see that makes any sense is that they want him to get more experience as captain. Possibly resting him against Scotland so he's good to go for Europe.

You got absolutely chin checked. Send Munstermuffin a personal apology. You can find his contact details here

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Anyone else seriously ****** off with our coaches reaction to the loss in the media and nonsense about not giving out cheap caps?

Haven't actually read anything but re cheap caps I'm won't be annoyed if they show a bit of positivity with selection in the next two windows and avoid giving players what I'm going to brand dead minutes.

Dead minutes™ are when a coach chooses to play an entirely known entity ahead of an unknown entity with potential to be an international in dead rubber games, bonus **** points if the known entity is in their 30s. An example of how that could happen this week would be POM, Sexton or Earls ahead of any backrow in the squad, Burns or any back three in the squad, playing those three would achieve absolutely nothing in the shorty or long term.

 

[munstermuffin]

Haven't actually read anything but re cheap caps I'm won't be annoyed if they show a bit of positivity with selection in the next two windows and avoid giving players what I'm going to brand dead minutes.

Dead minutes™ are when a coach chooses to play an entirely known entity ahead of an unknown entity with potential to be an international in dead rubber games, bonus **** points if the known entity is in their 30s. An example of how that could happen this week would be POM, Sexton or Earls ahead of any backrow in the squad, Burns or any back three in the squad, playing those three would achieve absolutely nothing in the shorty or long term.

This is my gripe. What is the realistic target for Ireland.if it is with 1 eye in RWC you have to say ok likes of Earls and POM are for emergency only. Sexton to be 22 and help guide games home and support younger guys in 10 shirt.

Prop -Healy needs to be rested too as he can't be expected to carry burden alone.

 

[munstermuffin]

You got absolutely chin checked. Send Munstermuffin a personal apology. You can find his contact details here

Thats my good side too

 

[Leinster Fan]

Cheap caps? Look at the players in the squad ffs. Squad is full of players who will earn 20 caps at most. Baird not being involved is a joke, every second row in the squad is a known quantity who'd been there for years. The amount of players in their late 20s who will never be a difference maker on the international stage would be bad even if this wasn't the least important sequence of games we'll play in the next few years.

 

[big ginger 8]

Based on Farrells comments he said Ryan may be allowed continue. Sexton if fit would be involved.

It's not about lack of call ups more the lads he is testing are not up to it and in a tournament where it means nothing and there is no seeding at risk we have failed to develop at 10, 1, 3, 2nd row in a certain way. Those are facts.

So as above fair play about Ryan, I was wrong there.

Your second paragraph is opinion rather than fact. I happen to agree with you about some of it but it's still opinion. Ultimately it's not really the international teams job to develop players and Farrell has only been in the job a wet week in the weirdest season we ever had.

In the matches since we started back up we've had new caps at 1, 7, 9, 11 and 15 with a few other players having their first ever start. He's also has a number of lads involved as apprentice players something we haven't really seen used by an Irish coach before. Guys have also gotten a shot in different positions. I agree some guys absolutely won't and shouldn't be around for the long term but Farrell absolutely has experimented in a number of areas even if they're not necessarily the ones we want.

I agree with you that he has handled loosehead wrong this international window. Having only two in an international squad is just asking for trouble. Ed Byrne is also not going to be a long term international. It's not his fault that there is a lack of talent at the position currently but certainly Eric should have been involved earlier. The one happy side effect is that EOS was playing poorly at the start of this season but has now had the chance to play himself back into form.

I don't know what you expected him to do differently at tighthead? He had O'Toole in the 6N squad but he's only back from injury. As you're well aware nearly every prop in the country seems to have gotten injured recently.

Secondrows I'm not really sure again what else he could have done apart from calling Baird up or this match, it's not Farrell's fault he did his adductor before the international window. He's had Wycherley in as an apprentice but as I've said before I think his international future will have to be at 6. I don't think there's anyone else screaming for international involvement even if there's a number of young guys we expect to come through in the next year or so.

10 is pretty complicated and it's clear from previous discussions we'll never agree there. Ultimately the IRFU are paying the price for putting too many eggs in the Carbery basket. We're at a weird limbo at the position but I fully expect at least one of H. Byrne, Healy or Crowley to have stepped up in the next year or two and for at least two of them to have been capped a year from now presuming no mass cancellation or long term injuries. And for any of them that don't make it I doubt we'll look back at the match against Georgia and pinpoint it as the reason why.

Edit: just to reiterate there's a few guys I've been calling for and am annoyed haven't been called up. In this case that's primarily Baird and Casey but I do think there's logic in what they're doing and that in terms of taking a shot on younger or form players there's actually a lot of positive steps from Farrell. It's also worth looking at the sides England and Wales put out against Georgia. Hardly pure development sides. Maybe these coaches have access to more info and a better idea of what they're doing than we do?

 

[Leinster Fan]

Don't want to be harsh but Ed Byrne, Herring, Heffernan, John Ryan, Bealham, Roux, Dillanne, JGP, R Byrne, Burns, McCloskey are never going to be top level. We saw against England that they had far more caps than we did despite us not picking a particularly young team.

Add to this guys who should be finishing up internationally like Healy, POM, Murray, Sexton and Earls. Except for Earls and POM we haven't made nearly enough of an effort to replace them and are going to be stuck with them for too long because of that. Healy in particular has at most one six nations left in him.

I do have some sympathy for Farrell because the most talented players are probably one or two windows away from being properly ready but I really can't see the harm in giving Casey a go off the bench at 9 for example. I'm still fairly optimistic about the future because we do have a lot of good young players but the jury is out on whether Farrell is the man to take the team forward. Right not we're in transition but we're not really transitioning to anything. I'm willing to reserve judgement until the six nations though, because our squad should be a lot better by then. If we're willing to sit through another year of mediocrity I'll be unhappy but I do think better things are coming.

Casey and Baird are the only ones I'm really annoyed about, especially in Casey's case because I'm worried Munster will relegate him to 10 minute cameos behind Murray in Europe and we won't see him involved for the Six nations either.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Cheap caps? Look at the players in the squad ffs. Squad is full of players who will earn 20 caps at most. Baird not being involved is a joke, every second row in the squad is a known quantity who'd been there for years. The amount of players in their late 20s who will never be a difference maker on the international stage would be bad even if this wasn't the least important sequence of games we'll play in the next few years.

I think if he was to bring Baird in he'd have to be involved v Scotland too. The lad absolutely needs to be blooded at international level, and to be fair to Farrell, I think he would have been but for injury. As things stand I don't think it's a terrible decision not to, our pack looks at its strongest since pre world cup, sixty something percent possession v England and parity in collisions is a testament to that and consolidating that before bringing more new players in makes sense. It goes to show however that not bringing Casey and/or Byrne into the squad was brainless because the only half back we have who is good enough to be an international starter is 25. Same goes to a lesser extent with Frawley and Hume but the circumstances were more difficult there.

 

[Leinster Fan]

10 is pretty complicated and it's clear from previous discussions we'll never agree there. Ultimately the IRFU are paying the price for putting too many eggs in the Carbery basket. We're at a weird limbo at the position but I fully expect at least one of H. Byrne, Healy or Crowley to have stepped up in the next year or two and for at least two of them to have been capped a year from now presuming no mass cancellation or long term injuries. And for any of them that don't make it I doubt we'll look back at the match against Georgia and pinpoint it as the reason why.

IRFU has got unlucky with 10 to be fair. Jackson was successfully developed as an option, obviously that fell apart. Then put all their eggs in the Joey basket, which fell apart too. So now we're at a moment where we're basically having to skip over an entire generation of players to replace Sexton, the players who were the right age to take over didn't work out and to find a player who's good enough we need to look at the guys who in an ideal world would have eventually taken over from Jackson (same age difference between Jackson/H.Byrne and Jackson/Sexton). We're now left with the less talented options from the Jackson/Carbery age group in Burns and R. Byrne, neither of whom are good enough but still the two best performing 10s after Sexton.

Ideally Sexton would have been phased out over a year or so allowing his successor to get a lot of game time under their belt while also having him there to keep the pressure off. This can still happen but Sexton will be too old and Byrne/Healy will be too young. If we'd had more luck at 10 no one would be calling for them to be involved, now we're reliant on them to bail us out and we're using Burns/Carty/R.Byrne as stopgaps in the meantime.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

nonsense about not giving out cheap caps?

The balls on Andy Farrell to say something like that when it's a perfect description of his Union playing career

 

[munstermuffin]

So as above fair play about Ryan, I was wrong there.

Your second paragraph is opinion rather than fact. I happen to agree with you about some of it but it's still opinion. Ultimately it's not really the international teams job to develop players and Farrell has only been in the job a wet week in the weirdest season we ever had.

In the matches since we started back up we've had new caps at 1, 7, 9, 11 and 15 with a few other players having their first ever start. He's also has a number of lads involved as apprentice players something we haven't really seen used by an Irish coach before. Guys have also gotten a shot in different positions. I agree some guys absolutely won't and shouldn't be around for the long term but Farrell absolutely has experimented in a number of areas even if they're not necessarily the ones we want.

I agree with you that he has handled loosehead wrong this international window. Having only two in an international squad is just asking for trouble. Ed Byrne is also not going to be a long term international. It's not his fault that there is a lack of talent at the position currently but certainly Eric should have been involved earlier. The one happy side effect is that EOS was playing poorly at the start of this season but has now had the chance to play himself back into form.

I don't know what you expected him to do differently at tighthead? He had O'Toole in the 6N squad but he's only back from injury. As you're well aware nearly every prop in the country seems to have gotten injured recently.

Secondrows I'm not really sure again what else he could have done apart from calling Baird up or this match, it's not Farrell's fault he did his adductor before the international window. He's had Wycherley in as an apprentice but as I've said before I think his international future will have to be at 6. I don't think there's anyone else screaming for international involvement even if there's a number of young guys we expect to come through in the next year or so.

10 is pretty complicated and it's clear from previous discussions we'll never agree there. Ultimately the IRFU are paying the price for putting too many eggs in the Carbery basket. We're at a weird limbo at the position but I fully expect at least one of H. Byrne, Healy or Crowley to have stepped up in the next year or two and for at least two of them to have been capped a year from now presuming no mass cancellation or long term injuries. And for any of them that don't make it I doubt we'll look back at the match against Georgia and pinpoint it as the reason why.

Edit: just to reiterate there's a few guys I've been calling for and am annoyed haven't been called up. In this case that's primarily Baird and Casey but I do think there's logic in what they're doing and that in terms of taking a shot on younger or form players there's actually a lot of positive steps from Farrell. It's also worth looking at the sides England and Wales put out against Georgia. Hardly pure development sides. Maybe these coaches have access to more info and a better idea of what they're doing than we do?

On this I'll start with LHP. He could have handled it much better.

In 2nd row. Well he cpuld have used Wycherley ahead of someone who isn't there in a few years.

At tighthead. This is a knock on from poor calls at 1. They put John Ryan on bench vs England knowing he was injured. And have floggged Porter. That is poor management.
At 10. My biggest gripe is at next RWC we will suffer for this lack of succession and again wonder why.
You say lads got new positions. Qe could all see Stockdale struggling slightly at 15 and Keenan got there due to injury. As you said its not Ireland job to develop

 

[jcahill1]

On this I'll start with LHP. He could have handled it much better.

In 2nd row. Well he cpuld have used Wycherley ahead of someone who isn't there in a few years.

At tighthead. This is a knock on from poor calls at 1. They put John Ryan on bench vs England knowing he was injured. And have floggged Porter. That is poor management.
At 10. My biggest gripe is at next RWC we will suffer for this lack of succession and again wonder why.
You say lads got new positions. Qe could all see Stockdale struggling slightly at 15 and Keenan got there due to injury. As you said its not Ireland job to develop

What do you feel he should have done at loosehead? I'm not overjoyed with Farrell at the moment either, but have been scratching my head trying to come up with my own personal alternatives.

 

[munstermuffin]

What do you feel he should have done at loosehead? I'm not overjoyed with Farrell at the moment either, but have been scratching my head trying to come up with my own personal alternatives.

O'Sullivan should have been used. Some younger lads brought in for experience in camp.
And some better planning like how did we end up away with 5 props. 1injured that he couldn't play another pulled up and effectively had 3 props