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Charles
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By the law "coming from the side " doesn't actually exist, right ? If you com from the side but make contact first with a team mate then it is legit, or have I got it all wrong ?
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C A Iversen
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Charles @ Jul 22 2009, 01:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Surely it's just a general term which has developed to simplify the law? Anyhow it says "coming in from the side" rather than "attaching at the side". If you are truely coming in from an offside position in front of the hindmost foot, the law is far more about that than the angle you are running if your onside.
Surely it's just a general term which has developed to simplify the law? Anyhow it says "coming in from the side" rather than "attaching at the side". If you are truely coming in from an offside position in front of the hindmost foot, the law is far more about that than the angle you are running if your onside.
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smartcooky
Guest
There is no Law actually called "Coming in from the side". If you search the Laws of the Game, you will not find this term anywhere. Its is just a phrase we use to describe the offences covered by Law 16.5, otherwise we would have to say something like "Joining ahead of his own hindmost player" or "Joining from in front of the hindmost foot of the hindmost player" or "Not retiring behind the hindmost foot before joining". Is must easier to just say "Coming in from the side" to cover all these.
Incidentally, you won't find the term "gate" anywhere in the Laws of the Game either... but that's another story
Now, take a look at this photo:
► Red 2 is in front of the hindmost foot. He cannot join the ruck at all from there, even if he joins at "A", because he would be coming from an offside position (Law 16.5c: "All players joining a ruck must do so from behind the foot of the hindmost team-mate in he ruck"). This is one instance of "Coming in from the side". He must first retire behind the offside line, then join.
► Red 13 is behind the hindmost foot of his team mate at "A", so he can join the ruck at "A" (Law 16.5c: "A player may join alongside this hindmost player") and is entitled to drive Blue 3 backwards and out of the ruck. If the ball comes out, he is not offside and is allowed to pick it up because he has infringed no laws, i.e. he joined correctly and came from an onside position.
► Neither player is allowed to run PAST Blue 3 (even though he came from behind the hindmost foot) and try to drive out the player at "B" by joining there (Law 16.5c: "If the player joins the ruck from the opponents' side, or in front of the hindmost team-mate, the player is offside"). That would also be "Coming in from the side".
This is not rocket science Charles. Its a simple concept to grasp, but it is difficult to put into practice because it is a dynamic area of the game, where phases of play change in fractions of a second. Thats why referees do get this wrong at times.
NOTE: in the action we were discussing in the match, the penalty against Australia was against Adam Ashley-Cooper for not releasing when Conrad Smith, on his feet, had all the rights to the ball. This happened before McCaw even arrived. However, Joubert must have decided that what McCaw did was OK, otherwise he would have whistled it straight away for the penalty to Black
Incidentally, you won't find the term "gate" anywhere in the Laws of the Game either... but that's another story
Now, take a look at this photo:
► Red 2 is in front of the hindmost foot. He cannot join the ruck at all from there, even if he joins at "A", because he would be coming from an offside position (Law 16.5c: "All players joining a ruck must do so from behind the foot of the hindmost team-mate in he ruck"). This is one instance of "Coming in from the side". He must first retire behind the offside line, then join.
► Red 13 is behind the hindmost foot of his team mate at "A", so he can join the ruck at "A" (Law 16.5c: "A player may join alongside this hindmost player") and is entitled to drive Blue 3 backwards and out of the ruck. If the ball comes out, he is not offside and is allowed to pick it up because he has infringed no laws, i.e. he joined correctly and came from an onside position.
► Neither player is allowed to run PAST Blue 3 (even though he came from behind the hindmost foot) and try to drive out the player at "B" by joining there (Law 16.5c: "If the player joins the ruck from the opponents' side, or in front of the hindmost team-mate, the player is offside"). That would also be "Coming in from the side".
This is not rocket science Charles. Its a simple concept to grasp, but it is difficult to put into practice because it is a dynamic area of the game, where phases of play change in fractions of a second. Thats why referees do get this wrong at times.
NOTE: in the action we were discussing in the match, the penalty against Australia was against Adam Ashley-Cooper for not releasing when Conrad Smith, on his feet, had all the rights to the ball. This happened before McCaw even arrived. However, Joubert must have decided that what McCaw did was OK, otherwise he would have whistled it straight away for the penalty to Black
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C A Iversen
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (smartcooky @ Jul 22 2009, 08:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
So without being a full and clear description, was my little comment before yours somewhat on the money? I just want to know if I've been paying attention well, lol.
There is no Law actually called "Coming in from the side". If you search the Laws of the Game, you will not find this term anywhere. Its is just a phrase we use to describe the offences covered by Law 16.5, otherwise we would have to say something like "Joining ahead of his own hindmost player" or "Joining from in front of the hindmost foot of the hindmost player" or "Not retiring behind the hindmost foot before joining". Is must easier to just say "Coming in from the side" to cover all these.
Incidentally, you won't find the term "gate" anywhere in the Laws of the Game either... but that's another story
Now, take a look at this photo:
► Red 2 is in front of the hindmost foot. He cannot join the ruck at all from there, even if he joins at "A", because he would be coming from an offside position (Law 16.5c: "All players joining a ruck must do so from behind the foot of the hindmost team-mate in he ruck"). This is one instance of "Coming in from the side". He must first retire behind the offside line, then join.
► Red 13 is behind the hindmost foot of his team mate at "A", so he can join the ruck at "A" (Law 16.5c: "A player may join alongside this hindmost player") and is entitled to drive Blue 3 backwards and out of the ruck. If the ball comes out, he is not offside and is allowed to pick it up because he has infringed no laws, i.e. he joined correctly and came from an onside position.
► Neither player is allowed to run PAST Blue 3 (even though he came from behind the hindmost foot) and try to drive than player out by joining at "B" (Law 16.5c: "If the player joins the ruck from the opponents' side, or in front of the hindmost team-mate, the player is offside"). That would also be "Coming in from the side".
This is not rocket science Charles. Its a simple concept to grasp, but it is difficult to put into practice because it is a dynamic area of the game, where phases of play change in fractions of a second. Thats why referees do get this wrong at times.[/b]
So without being a full and clear description, was my little comment before yours somewhat on the money? I just want to know if I've been paying attention well, lol.
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smartcooky
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (C A Iversen @ Jul 22 2009, 08:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Thats a pass
Any breach of 16.5c is effectively "coming in from the side".
So without being a full and clear description, was my little comment before yours somewhat on the money? I just want to know if I've been paying attention well, lol.
Thats a pass
Any breach of 16.5c is effectively "coming in from the side".
C
C A Iversen
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (smartcooky @ Jul 22 2009, 09:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
Thats a pass
Any breach of 16.5c is effectively "coming in from the side".
[/b][/quote]
This is all really vital information for the rugby watcher to understand and be informed, so that they can actually shout at the right things when watching a game instead of just the referee's or screaming "cheat", lol. Makes me want to be a ref next year instead of playing. Although I imagine that there's a probably 50 pages of rules at least, lol.
So without being a full and clear description, was my little comment before yours somewhat on the money? I just want to know if I've been paying attention well, lol.
Thats a pass
Any breach of 16.5c is effectively "coming in from the side".
[/b][/quote]
This is all really vital information for the rugby watcher to understand and be informed, so that they can actually shout at the right things when watching a game instead of just the referee's or screaming "cheat", lol.
Makes me want to be a ref next year instead of playing. Although I imagine that there's a probably 50 pages of rules at least, lol.
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shtove
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (smartcooky @ Jul 21 2009, 09:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
OK Charles, I have found it. 31 minutes, right where you said. It wasn't the piece I was looking at.
First let me explain what "coming at the side" actually means. There is no offence called "coming in at the side" the Laws, its just a convenient phrase to explain what part of the offside Law at the ruck is being applied.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
Have a look at the picture below to see how this Law applies
Keep in mind this important fact.
THERE IS NO "GATE" AT A RUCK! The term "gate" only applies to the tackle/post tackle. When the tackle becomes a ruck, the gate disappears, and the hindmost foot offside lines appear. Consequently, a player joining the ruck does not have to do so from directly behind the ball.
Now lets examine what McCaw did.
"All players joining a ruck must do so from behind the foot of the hindmost team-mate in the ruck." McCaw did exactly that, joining from several meters behind the hindmost foot.
"A player may join alongside this hindmost player." Again, this is exactly what McCaw did. The hindmost player was Conrad Smith. McCaw joined next to him on his right.
Having now established that McCaw's entry to the ruck is legal, he is now entitled to drive players out of the ruck. He does so by binding onto Gold 11 and driving him backwards. Gold 11 is unable to keep his feet resulting in them both going down. There is no offence here, because neither player went off their feet voluntarily.
This leaves McCaw LEGALLY on the Australian side of the ruck when ruck ends (i.e. when the ball comes out) Since McCaw came onto the ruck from an onside position, he is entitled to pick up the ball as the ruck has ended at it is general play.
Far from being an example of "cheating" by McCaw, this is in fact a textbook example of exactly how an openside flankers/fetchers ought to play.
That little piece of action is a 10 second coaching video on exactly how its done.
[/b][/quote]
Does this apply to the "McCaw as Aus scrumhalf" situation? I'm confused on which one we're discussing, hence the doubt about him making the tackle. Otherwise, I take the point.
Anyway, RU has a permanent problem, because the laws are sophisticated but have to be enforced at high speed, which confuses fans who mostly rely on what looks right by their own judgment. That's OK in cricket, where there's time to "sleep on it" - literally true for MPC members.
So my thanks to SmartCooky - but please help me understand WHY the gate applies at tackle time but not at ruck time.
p.s. Next up - why THE forward pass in RWC 07 was not forward.
OK Charles, I have found it. 31 minutes, right where you said. It wasn't the piece I was looking at.
First let me explain what "coming at the side" actually means. There is no offence called "coming in at the side" the Laws, its just a convenient phrase to explain what part of the offside Law at the ruck is being applied.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
Have a look at the picture below to see how this Law applies
Keep in mind this important fact.
THERE IS NO "GATE" AT A RUCK! The term "gate" only applies to the tackle/post tackle. When the tackle becomes a ruck, the gate disappears, and the hindmost foot offside lines appear. Consequently, a player joining the ruck does not have to do so from directly behind the ball.
Now lets examine what McCaw did.
"All players joining a ruck must do so from behind the foot of the hindmost team-mate in the ruck." McCaw did exactly that, joining from several meters behind the hindmost foot.
"A player may join alongside this hindmost player." Again, this is exactly what McCaw did. The hindmost player was Conrad Smith. McCaw joined next to him on his right.
Having now established that McCaw's entry to the ruck is legal, he is now entitled to drive players out of the ruck. He does so by binding onto Gold 11 and driving him backwards. Gold 11 is unable to keep his feet resulting in them both going down. There is no offence here, because neither player went off their feet voluntarily.
This leaves McCaw LEGALLY on the Australian side of the ruck when ruck ends (i.e. when the ball comes out) Since McCaw came onto the ruck from an onside position, he is entitled to pick up the ball as the ruck has ended at it is general play.
Far from being an example of "cheating" by McCaw, this is in fact a textbook example of exactly how an openside flankers/fetchers ought to play.
That little piece of action is a 10 second coaching video on exactly how its done.
[/b][/quote]
Does this apply to the "McCaw as Aus scrumhalf" situation? I'm confused on which one we're discussing, hence the doubt about him making the tackle. Otherwise, I take the point.
Anyway, RU has a permanent problem, because the laws are sophisticated but have to be enforced at high speed, which confuses fans who mostly rely on what looks right by their own judgment. That's OK in cricket, where there's time to "sleep on it" - literally true for MPC members.
So my thanks to SmartCooky - but please help me understand WHY the gate applies at tackle time but not at ruck time.
p.s. Next up - why THE forward pass in RWC 07 was not forward.
S
smartcooky
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shtove @ Jul 22 2009, 09:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
As far as my earlier suggestion of McCaw being the tackler, I was thinking of a different piece of action
Yes we are discussing the "McCaw as Aussie scrumhalf" in the 31st minute.
A player who drives through the opponents ruck is entitled to pick up the ball if its out. It is no different to a player, seeing the ball come out (lets say the SH is distracted and doesn't see it come out) running up and picking up the ball. As long as he proceeded from behind the hindmost foot, no problem, but if he was seagulling ahead of the hindmost foot, then he's offside.
However, McCaw would not have been permitted to stay where he was, waiting for the ball to come out because that would be loitering
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
McCaw was OK because the ball came out immediately. That is part of the skill... knowing exactly when to strike. but if the ball had not come out, he would have had to get back to his feet, retire behind the offside line and rejoin.
The other thing to consider is that when McCaw found himself in the position he was in, the ruck was over because there were no Wallabies on their feet, so you could also argue that it was now General Play so no offside. A ruck requires at least ONE player from EACH team to be on their feet.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
The "gate" is part of Law 15, the Tackle. The term gate is just a way of saying "directly behind the tackled player"
Firstly the tackler does not have to go through the gate:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
But all other players approaching the tackle area must do so.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
The highlighted words are basically a description of "the gate" so we call it that for simplicity. As a rule of thumb, referees consider the gate to be as wide as the tackled player. Sometimes the gate only exists for a fraction of a second. Thats why the tackler is exempt from having to come in through it.
Now to your question; why doesn't the gate apply to a ruck?
► The tackled player may have (should have) rolled away and since he defines where the gate is, where would the gate be now?
► The tackler should also have already got up or rolled away.
► We could argue that the ball could define the gate, but approaching players may not be able see the ball so how would they know where the gate is?
This is why the gate disappears when the tackle becomes a ruck, and is replaced by two offside lines at the hindmost feet of each team in the ruck. Much easier for players to know how they can legally approach the ruck.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
Oh please don't go there!!
As far as my earlier suggestion of McCaw being the tackler, I was thinking of a different piece of action
Yes we are discussing the "McCaw as Aussie scrumhalf" in the 31st minute.
A player who drives through the opponents ruck is entitled to pick up the ball if its out. It is no different to a player, seeing the ball come out (lets say the SH is distracted and doesn't see it come out) running up and picking up the ball. As long as he proceeded from behind the hindmost foot, no problem, but if he was seagulling ahead of the hindmost foot, then he's offside.
However, McCaw would not have been permitted to stay where he was, waiting for the ball to come out because that would be loitering
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
McCaw was OK because the ball came out immediately. That is part of the skill... knowing exactly when to strike. but if the ball had not come out, he would have had to get back to his feet, retire behind the offside line and rejoin.
The other thing to consider is that when McCaw found himself in the position he was in, the ruck was over because there were no Wallabies on their feet, so you could also argue that it was now General Play so no offside. A ruck requires at least ONE player from EACH team to be on their feet.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
The "gate" is part of Law 15, the Tackle. The term gate is just a way of saying "directly behind the tackled player"
Firstly the tackler does not have to go through the gate:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
But all other players approaching the tackle area must do so.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
The highlighted words are basically a description of "the gate" so we call it that for simplicity. As a rule of thumb, referees consider the gate to be as wide as the tackled player. Sometimes the gate only exists for a fraction of a second. Thats why the tackler is exempt from having to come in through it.
Now to your question; why doesn't the gate apply to a ruck?
► The tackled player may have (should have) rolled away and since he defines where the gate is, where would the gate be now?
► The tackler should also have already got up or rolled away.
► We could argue that the ball could define the gate, but approaching players may not be able see the ball so how would they know where the gate is?
This is why the gate disappears when the tackle becomes a ruck, and is replaced by two offside lines at the hindmost feet of each team in the ruck. Much easier for players to know how they can legally approach the ruck.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
Oh please don't go there!!
I
i08tkersten.08
Guest
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (bristol-iain @ Jul 14 2009, 09:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>
If you take out Muliaina, Rodney, McCaw and Woodcock how many caps do the rest of the team have collectivley?
[/b][/quote]
Its team changing time for everyone at the moment, give them a chance, but I must say New Zealand is not the force it used to be these days
Here's New Zealand's 22.
We're looking a lot more reinforced now. Seeing the names McCaw, So'oialo, Smith, Hore, Woodcock, Sivivatu makes a big difference. Of course they haven't had much game-time lately, but I honestly reckon we're a much scarier team now. We still have the underdog tag though!
The full team is Mils Muliaina,Cory Jane, Conrad Smith, Ma'a Nonu, Sitiveni Sivivatu, Stephen Donald, Jimmy Cowan, Rodney So'oialo, Richie McCaw, Jerome Kaino, Isaac Ross, Brad Thorn, Neemia Tialata, Andrew Hore and Tony Woodcock. The reserves are Keven Mealamu, Owen Franks, Jason Eaton, Kieran Read, Piri Weepu, Luke McAlister and Joe Rokocoko.
Donald is going to need to produce his first good performance for the All Blacks for us to have a real hope. So, not much chance of a NZ win then.
If you take out Muliaina, Rodney, McCaw and Woodcock how many caps do the rest of the team have collectivley?
[/b][/quote]
Its team changing time for everyone at the moment, give them a chance, but I must say New Zealand is not the force it used to be these days
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