NZ vs Wales - June 2016

[dullonien]

Agree. Totally nuts to suggest dropping one of the most dependable players we have and one of the leaders of the team.

I don't see it as nuts at all. We're not taking about replacing him with some rookie, we're talking about Scott Williams, a player who's been around the squad since 2011, and is an important leader/captain at the Scarlets.

I'm not trying to belittle Roberts' contribution to Wales over the years, he's been a consistently excellent player for us, with Gatland's game plan revolving around what he brings as a player, in both attack and defense.

I always believed that Roberts could develop his attacking game / Gatland change his tactics to get more out of him than being just a crash ball merchant. But it hasn't happened. We all know that Jamie's passing game is decent, but I don't think he has the vision to identify space out wide, whilst I've seen little evidence of an offloading game ala any number of NZ centres. Wales' use of Roberts consists of him taking it up, crossing the gain line, and quick ball exploiting the gaps this creates. But against SH sides especially, they simply disrupt the resulting ruck, and quick ball is rarely actually generated.

If we want to develop our attacking game, especially against the SH sides, we need more players who are able to spot space, and the ability to exploit it. For me Scott Williams falls into that bracket with his distribution and pace. A form JD2 does too, with his pace, and power (though his hands still leave a lot to be desired). I'm not sure Biggar does, so I can see him as vulnerable in the near future if one of Anscombe, Davies or Patchell can prove themselves. I believe 1/2p is fully capable, but we're yet to see it on a consistent basis for Wales.

That's just the way I see things anyway....

 

[AzaMatt]

In fairness to roberts he does seem to be varying his game slightly, especially for quins but that may indicate it is actually coaching that is the issue. there were some slight changes in the way we played this years six nations so i think we'll see a gradual change over the year. scott williams is defninitely the way forward i feel, at least give him a full game against the chiefs and bring him on for the last 30 mins against the all blacks.

 

[Tony Manx]

Most change I have seen in Roberts, he now varies which foot he uses to go into the inevitable tackle........

 

[Ospreylian]

I just can't see us regularly beating the Southern Hemisphere without playing a more attacking based game. I do concede that our depth is without doubt the biggest issue and you get the sense that Gatland has tailored the gameplan to that. Another issue is that our forwards skills are pretty terrible aside from Tips and Faletau.

This is a pretty ridiculous statement. So do you regard the skills of Alun Wyn, Charteris, Samson Lee, Ken Owens and Sam Warburton to be terrible then? Because as far as I have seen they have been some of our best players in recent years in terms of skill.

 

[AzaMatt]

This is a pretty ridiculous statement. So do you regard the skills of Alun Wyn, Charteris, Samson Lee, Ken Owens and Sam Warburton to be terrible then? Because as far as I have seen they have been some of our best players in recent years in terms of skill.

i think he meant specifically handling skills. although none of those are bad, they are nowhere near the skills of SH forwards

 

[TRF_Cymro]

I don't see it as nuts at all. We're not taking about replacing him with some rookie, we're talking about Scott Williams, a player who's been around the squad since 2011, and is an important leader/captain at the Scarlets.

I'm not trying to belittle Roberts' contribution to Wales over the years, he's been a consistently excellent player for us, with Gatland's game plan revolving around what he brings as a player, in both attack and defense.

I always believed that Roberts could develop his attacking game / Gatland change his tactics to get more out of him than being just a crash ball merchant. But it hasn't happened. We all know that Jamie's passing game is decent, but I don't think he has the vision to identify space out wide, whilst I've seen little evidence of an offloading game ala any number of NZ centres. Wales' use of Roberts consists of him taking it up, crossing the gain line, and quick ball exploiting the gaps this creates. But against SH sides especially, they simply disrupt the resulting ruck, and quick ball is rarely actually generated.

If we want to develop our attacking game, especially against the SH sides, we need more players who are able to spot space, and the ability to exploit it. For me Scott Williams falls into that bracket with his distribution and pace. A form JD2 does too, with his pace, and power (though his hands still leave a lot to be desired). I'm not sure Biggar does, so I can see him as vulnerable in the near future if one of Anscombe, Davies or Patchell can prove themselves. I believe 1/2p is fully capable, but we're yet to see it on a consistent basis for Wales.

That's just the way I see things anyway....

Can't agree with this.

JRs been with Wales since 2008, he's 29 and hardly past it, he's been an important leader in every club he has been to ...

It is an absolute myth that he can't pass, lacks the vision etc, he has shown it and done it this season for both Wales and Quins. It is more a question of Howley and Gatland using his skill sets more. I can't see how JD can do any better, he struggles to identify simple two on ones or even three on ones, I have sat at my seat in the Millennium Stadium since 2000 and from my view, the countless times I have seen JD butch a simple overlap is silly, what makes it criminal is that shows like Scrum V don't show it, but I others around it have seen it. He couldn't pass as a youth player with Whitland. If a change is to be made, it would be for JD not JR.

I'm tired of seeing this argument of dropping JR, when it does he inevitably comes out and delivers and people go quiet for a bit.

 

[dullonien]

I do agree with that Cymro. I am worried that JD hasn't managed to develop his basic passing skills. I've lost count at the amount of times his attempted long passes have ended in touch over the years.

However, I feel that we need more creativity at 12, who can assist the 10 in identifying space and act upon it, a second 5/8th as the Kiwis would call it. That then begs the question of whether Roberts could shift out one to outside centre. I'm not sure myself, because I think he lacks the pace that is required imo from a 13. The alternative would be to employ a more flexible center combo, where Roberts and Williams chop and change positions based on what's in front of them, but that's tough to get right in the heat of battle.

When I think of the perfectly balanced center combo I think of players like (sticking to Welsh players), a Henson type player at 12 who's vision and passing ability is comparable to a top 10, but with the physicality to truck it up if needs be. I see many of those attributes in Scott Williams, though his range of passing and vision aren't up to Henson in his prime levels, but he does have more pace. Another player who I think could fit the bill is Ashley Beck, but injury prone is an understatement in describing him.

At 13, I always loved watching Jamie Robinson and Alan Bateman play. Wales never saw the best from either, with Robinson's career hampered by injury, and Bateman spending his prime years in league, but both had pace to make an outside break and great footwork and hands. Shanklin would be a more recent example, but he relied on a little more physicality that footwork, but still had the pace to exploit gaps. Tyler Morgan probably closest fits that bill, but he's far from ready to overtake those in front of him. Cory Allen is another, but he's barely ever fit. North is another, but he's needed on the wing, and would need to convert to center full time if it were going to work.

I admit that I'm probably looking at this from an idealistic point of view, and unfairly criticising Roberts for not fitting the ideal inside center role that I have in my head. But I still think that this should be what we strive for long term, in the same way I wanted a more traditional scrum half when Phillips was Wales no. 1, even though he was performing well.

 

[j'nuh]

I don't. JR is key to Warrenball.

Howleyball would be more appropriate re: the Welsh backline.

 

[Ospreylian]

I do agree with that Cymro. I am worried that JD hasn't managed to develop his basic passing skills. I've lost count at the amount of times his attempted long passes have ended in touch over the years.

However, I feel that we need more creativity at 12, who can assist the 10 in identifying space and act upon it, a second 5/8th as the Kiwis would call it. That then begs the question of whether Roberts could shift out one to outside centre. I'm not sure myself, because I think he lacks the pace that is required imo from a 13. The alternative would be to employ a more flexible center combo, where Roberts and Williams chop and change positions based on what's in front of them, but that's tough to get right in the heat of battle.

I agree we need more creativity at 12. When Williams plays 12 things start to happen in attack and he starts to play in a similar style to Henson at his best (i.e. straightening up the line of attack, drawing in defenders to create the overlap, distributing the ball to whichever player is in space). But I just can't see Roberts being dropped, not with the depth (or lack of) Wales have in the centres these days.

I would personally go with Williams at 12 and Roberts at 13 because although Roberts may not have much pace he is a difficult man to bring down and draws attention (defenders flock to him when he makes a break). If Williams can create the space for Roberts to run into he can offload a little more to those around him, and even if he doesn't manage to do that the defenders he draws attention from will mean the ball can be recycled quickly out to North/Liam/Amos etc. where the space will hopefully appear.

I suppose the alternative could be to play Roberts at 12 for 60 minutes to batter the opposition defence and then bring on a creative centre towards the end of a game when the defence is tired.

But to not include Roberts at all would be daft when he is (and has been for a long time) Wales' most consistent centre. People are quick to forget some of the huge performances he has put in recently for Wales and immediately dismiss his ball-crashing game without actually considering why that is the best option for Wales at the moment given the players we have available to us. I think there's room for both Scott Williams' creative game and Roberts' more straightforward game.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

Howleyball would be more appropriate re: the Welsh backline.

Warrenball/Howleyball; Potato/Potarto.

 

[valley commando]

Howleyball would be more appropriate re: the Welsh backline.

You are right, the biggest obstacle Wales have as an attacking force is Howley, a centre pairing of JD ans SW would prove more potent as an attacking weapon than any with JR, I see Roberts as an impact player off the bench. If JD and SW get a run of games together I can see them as the Lions pairing next summer they are the future if they remain fit.
I'm another that's disappointed Sam Davies isn't in the squad I think he has more potential than Patchell or Anscombe and although he has had games when he hasn't set the world alight he is young and there have been occasions when he has been exceptional, if his talent is nurtured and he get's more game time I see him as Biggar's natural successor, my only concern is that as an Osprey he remains 2nd choice, that said I'd like to see him move to the Scarlets or Dragons.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

As an Englishmen am I allowed to comment on a Welshman?

I like Roberts, he'll never let you down and you'll always be in the game with him around. What he does, he does very well, but you do pretty much know what's coming and the top teams can largely counter that. In any event he'll be 30 in a few months and I guess he's got an eye on starting his medical career - I suspect he may well view the Lions in NZ as a fitting finale to his international career.

 

[Hendo74]

As an Englishmen am I allowed to comment on a Welshman?

I like Roberts, he'll never let you down and you'll always be in the game with him around. What he does, he does very well, but you do pretty much know what's coming and the top teams can largely counter that. In any event he'll be 30 in a few months and I guess he's got an eye on starting his medical career - I suspect he may well view the Lions in NZ as a fitting finale to his international career.

Very sensible comment. Very likely that JR & JD will continue to start, with SW (hopefully) coming off the bench for decent long stints to make a big impact. I think we'd have seen a LOT of SW in the last 6N if he had been fit. SW & JD are undeniably the future but JR isn't done quite yet.....

 

[welshglory]

i think he meant specifically handling skills. although none of those are bad, they are nowhere near the skills of SH forwards

Yes that's what i meant, and specifically mean skills under pressure which is what Gatland has even stated in the press. At the moment he is relying on the forwards being supremely fit and having very high work rates, particulary targeting the breakdown areas, not using the forwards much to carry other than as basic target pods, but the overall skill level and explosivity isn't there, not too mention in the backs, and that's probably what is keeping us from beating the top teams imho.

Can't agree with this.

JRs been with Wales since 2008, he's 29 and hardly past it, he's been an important leader in every club he has been to ...

It is an absolute myth that he can't pass, lacks the vision etc, he has shown it and done it this season for both Wales and Quins. It is more a question of Howley and Gatland using his skill sets more. I can't see how JD can do any better, he struggles to identify simple two on ones or even three on ones, I have sat at my seat in the Millennium Stadium since 2000 and from my view, the countless times I have seen JD butch a simple overlap is silly, what makes it criminal is that shows like Scrum V don't show it, but I others around it have seen it. He couldn't pass as a youth player with Whitland. If a change is to be made, it would be for JD not JR.

I'm tired of seeing this argument of dropping JR, when it does he inevitably comes out and delivers and people go quiet for a bit.

So you're saying that Davies is worse in terms of handling and passing? I would agree but there's not much of a difference between him and Roberts and it's mostly under pressure where they struggle.

For international level centres their skills under pressure are pretty bad, although if anything it show's the trend of international rugby midfielders at the moment.

Again i point to New Zealand where Nonu was a centre/winger who could barely throw off his good hand, never mind bad hand and has turned into one of the most skillful 12's in recent history. Whilst Roberts and Davies have both been together for around 6 years now and haven't changed a bit.

If we had a ball player like James O'Connor, Kurtley Beale at fullback or a link man like O'Driscoll in the centres alongside Roberts it would be great, the current set up just isn't optimal for anything other than bashing on the front foot and it's showed, but it is what we have to work with at the moment.

 

[AzaMatt]

The worst case scenario for us is that as roberts is retiring gatland moves north to 12 and he makes him do the exact same thing -_-. i cant find the quote but gatland did actually say he see's north as a centre for wales, long term. i think the only reason he has not played there much is because we do not have any alternatives out wide, as someone stated above. i was hoping dirkson would get a call up, he's physical just like gatland likes, yes he's not quite international standard yet but he would get experience just from being in the group. have no idea what walker is doing there, he hasnt done anything of note for a while and always seems to be injured. love his footwork etc but even for the osprey's he hasnt been as electric as he was a few years ago.

found the quote btw, from south wales evening post
"Long term, George could end up in the centre," said Gatland.

"He reminds me of players like Ma'a Nonu and Tana Umaga, who started on the wing and moved into midfield."

Read more: http://www.southwales-eveningpost.c...tory-27716744-detail/story.html#ixzz48Y8aa8MB
Follow us: @SWEveningPost on Twitter | SWEveningPost on Facebook

 

[dullonien]

I'd imagine Gatland was talking more about seeing North as a potential 13, where he has played for Wales at times. I do agree to some extent due to his pace and power. Defensively he'd need to improve, and his hands would let him down. He is still just 24, but would need to be playing club rugby at 13 on a permanent basis if he were to stand a change of developing those skills.

Valley commando, not sure I see Roberts as a great impact sub either, and that complicated things further. He only covers 1 position, so would result in constant reshuffling in the event of injuries in other positions.

 

[TobesHodges]

What I reckon the Kiwi team will be:

1. Reggie Goodes
2. Dane Coles
3. Owen Franks
4. Brodie Rettalick
5. Sam Whitelock
6. Elliot Dixon
7. Sam Cane
8. Kieron Reid

9. Aaron Smith
10. Aaron Cruden
11. Julian Savea
12. Ryan Crotty
13. Maleki Fekitoa
14. Waisaka Naholo
15. Ben Smith

16. Codie Taylor
17. Whyatt Crockett
18. Josh Hoeneck
19. Luke Romano
20. Victor Vito
21. Tamara Kerr Barlow
22. Bueden Barritt
23. Charlie Ngatia or Rene Ranger

To be honest Hoeneck should start but doesn't have the AB caps.

Dixon really should be at 6, Kaino, Vito, Luatua really haven't done enough, Ardie (even though he's a 7) would be my only other pick in this position.

I think the really unlucky guy will be Damien McKenzie, for all money he should be an AB but he has to be a like for like switch with Ben Smith because of Naholo and Savea on the wings. Also you have to have a utility centre/back three on the bench as no one else in this back line is really a 12 or 13, It's harsh and I was trying to think how to get him on the team, the only way would be to drop slightly out of form Savea, but who wants to make that call

 

[first5eight]

Hansen & co have shown loyalty over the years so I cant see any bolters other than Mckenzie & Dixon coming off the bench for the 2nd or 3rd tests or maybe Mackenzie starting the 3rd test and B Smith moving to the wing. My line up;

1. Joe Moody
2. Dane Coles
3. Owen Franks
4. Brodie Rettalick
5. Sam Whitelock
6. Jerome Kaino
7. Sam Cane
8. Kieran Read

9. Aaron Smith
10. Aaron Cruden
11. Julian Savea
12. Ryan Crotty
13. Malakai Fekitoa
14. Waisake Naholo
15. Ben Smith

16. Codie Taylor
17. Wyatt Crockett
18. Charlie Faumuina
19. Patrick Tuipolotu
20. Victor Vito / Elliot Dixon
21. Tawera Kerr Barlow
22. Beauden Barrett / Damain Mckenzie
23. Charlie Ngatai

I think we will comfortably see the welsh off with with the closest margin being 9-15 points and the biggest being 30+. As for the the rest of the year I can only see us really properly being challenged in Sydney & Durban. The Irish will be tough in Dublin but I can't see them breaking a 100+ years of history. The french will be out for revenge after being bent over and rammed in at the World Cup so that one could be close. Cant see us going backwards even with the experience we've lost - Hensons succession planning has been on point.

 

[saulan]

Hansen & co have shown loyalty over the years so I cant see any bolters other than Mckenzie & Dixon coming off the bench for the 2nd or 3rd tests or maybe Mackenzie starting the 3rd test and B Smith moving to the wing. My line up;

1. Joe Moody
2. Dane Coles
3. Owen Franks
4. Brodie Rettalick
5. Sam Whitelock
6. Jerome Kaino
7. Sam Cane
8. Kieran Read

9. Aaron Smith
10. Aaron Cruden
11. Julian Savea
12. Ryan Crotty
13. Malakai Fekitoa
14. Waisake Naholo
15. Ben Smith

16. Codie Taylor
17. Wyatt Crockett
18. Charlie Faumuina
19. Patrick Tuipolotu
20. Victor Vito / Elliot Dixon
21. Tawera Kerr Barlow
22. Beauden Barrett / Damain Mckenzie
23. Charlie Ngatai

I think we will comfortably see the welsh off with with the closest margin being 9-15 points and the biggest being 30+. As for the the rest of the year I can only see us really properly being challenged in Sydney & Durban. The Irish will be tough in Dublin but I can't see them breaking a 100+ years of history. The french will be out for revenge after being bent over and rammed in at the World Cup so that one could be close. Cant see us going backwards even with the experience we've lost - Hensons succession planning has been on point.

Surely Mckenzie needs to at least be on the bench (I know you have him there, but it's a maybe between him and Barrett). He has been the best performer in this Super Rugby season by far.

 

[welshglory]

This series is going to be fascinating. Wales v NZ are always fast paced exciting games, I think Wales thrive on as well, something we don't get to experience during the 6 nations. I remember one of the Allblack players saying after one of the 2010 series that it was the fastest game of rugby he'd ever been apart of.

First and foremost the boys have to be physical and they have to be ready to take the game to NZ, SA and Aus have shown that is the best way to beat them. You can't just sit back and let thing come to you, which is what we did in the RWC and 6 nations.

I would definitely be looking at Roberts, Davies and North targeting Cruden and Crotty, looking to suck in Cane as well. Breakdown will be interesting, that's been a strength of our's recently and If we can play on Cane's relative inexperience by taking him out of the game that will go a long way.

Defensively, hopefully we can put sustained pressure on NZ, missing Halfpenny is huge because his positioning is world class, especially tailored to the blitz defence. I'm sure NZ will look to target our backthree who are not especially strong in any defensive aspect.

At the set piece the scrums should be a pretty even contest, Evans, Baldwin and Lee aren't exactly the most destructive scrummagers at this stage of their careers. If we don't have Charteris then the lineout falls apart, i think NZ will have the edge there.

I feel are lack of clinical ness and attacking variation will count against us in the end though, hope i'm proved wrong.