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NZ vs Wales - June 2016

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I know what you mean Dull, there really doesn't seem to be enough youth making their way to the pro clubs and making the step up. Its hard to see where Gatland can go from here.

Agree with all of what you are saying, the only caveat being with Dacey. Dacey's throwing in has been OK with Cardiff and he is excellent around the park. He's a good impact player, carries well and can win the occasional turnover. He used to play at flanker I believe, and often resembles one in the loose. I was really happy to see him get a run out and really think he can grow into an international role. Wales have a history of a poor line out and I think Saturday was a team problem, as much as his throwing. I'm not saying he's the finished article but he's worth a place.
 
With 5-6 x the population, perhaps you need to tell us what Argentina are good at, other than sheila's games like soccer? What is their olympic medal record compared to NZ? Otherwise, stick to girls games, eh?

This kind of inappropriate claptrap has no place in this forum.

The fact that you appear to be a Kiwi makes it even more cringeworthy; and embarrassing for the rest of us Kiwis who get tarred with your brush!
 
- Lydiate. Living off of his 2012 form, but his game is far too limited by todays standards. He's not explosive or quick enough to develop an effective carrying game.
- Biggar. I like Biggar's never say die attitude, but he doesn't threaten the line effectively, and his distribution game is fat too limited at this level.
- Roberts. Too limited sorry. He wouldn't get close to the NZ squad without the ability to identify space and distribute the ball.
- Liam Williams. I love him in many ways, but boy does the guy never pass the ball. Always goes on the outside as well, which usually just cuts down space for players outside him.
- Rhys Priestland. Wales arguably played their best rugby under Gats when Priestland was playing well at 10, but he's far too inconsistent and probe to errors.

- Lydiate: He's out of the tour with injury isn't he?

- Biggar: Wales have no chance of beating NZ if he persists in sitting back in the pocket. As you say, he doesn't take the ball to the line often enough or effectively enough to keep the NZ midfield defence honest. When he kicks, he will have to kick accurately and into space. Kick chase isn't going to do much because I cannot see a weakness anywhere in the NZ backs, Dagg, Ben Smith, J Savea, etc, are all excellent under the high ball. God help Wales if he starts kicking the ball away aimlessly, because you know that NZ are the best counter-attackers in world rugby and they will burn you if you keep doing it.

- Roberts: I have always considered him to be something of a carthorse; big strong but lacking in agility. When he strikes the combinations of players like Ngatai, Fekitoa and Tamanivalu in midfield, I think his one-dimensionality will be brutally exposed.

- Liam Williams: I haven't seen enough of him to judge, but if what you say is true than he sounds quite an easy player to show the sideline.

- Rhys Priestland: I think your best chance of winning a test on this tour is with this guy having a mistake free match at 10.
 
Cooky. My comment re Liam Williams was probably the most unfair. He's probably been the most creative player in Wales over the past few years. As with North, he's another casualty of the rubbish they are being served by those inside them. His form has certainly dipped this year, but then he's had injury after injury to contend with, so it must be difficult for him to get match fit.

Slot him into a backline who can actually create space out wide, and he'll create havoc.
 
Charlie Ngatai has been Released from the All Blacks Squad to focus on resolving his concussion related symptoms.

George Moala has been called in to replace him.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...ed-into-all-blacks-in-place-of-charlie-ngatai

Such a shame for Ngatai, and the AB's in general as well because he is the form midfielder in the country. The guy has shown some serious ability this year and would have been one of the first names down.

Great chance for Moala. In my opinion he should have been selected anyway.
 
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i do have to laugh at the people who want to put ben smith on the wing, dont get me wrong, he is great on the wing but why would you want to put the best fullback in the world in another position to give somebody who is not as good in that position a crack?! izzy dagg and beauden barrett etc. are great at fullback sure but I just think it's a waste of ben smith's talents to have him anywhere else
 
i do have to laugh at the people who want to put ben smith on the wing, dont get me wrong, he is great on the wing but why would you want to put the best fullback in the world in another position to give somebody who is not as good in that position a crack?! izzy dagg and beauden barrett etc. are great at fullback sure but I just think it's a waste of ben smith's talents to have him anywhere else

Would only put Smith on the wing for McKenzie. The others can warm the bench.
 
so do you think McKenzie is a better fullback than Smith? not judging if you do, just genuinely want to know

No. I don't. However... Besides Naholo, we are short on right wingers atm. McKenzie is coming, whether people like it or not lol.
 
Dull you might want to add Scott Williams into that list, defensively he wasn't at the races and in attack lacked edge. Roberts looked tired, and almost seemingly carrying an injury. Will say it again, Roberts can pass a ball and identify the space, sadly Howley seems him as nothing more than a battering ram, it can be effective but as it stands he's now having more bad days than good.

As for Dacey, he's done well when called upon, I think anyone who came off the bench on Saturday wouldn't have done better. The lineout has under performed mainly due to inept coaching of McBryde. Really wish Gatland had a clear out after the World Cup and got somebody fresh in. For me that is why England were dangerous on Saturday, different style of coaching has gotten the best out of the players.

If Wales want to play an attacking game from 10 and a move way from Biggar, the man who was stuck on at 15 as a replacement is that man. Done it for the Blues this season, if there is a plea to be had, then please Gatland and co, stop playing him at 15 and let him play 10.l
 
Agree on most points Cymro. I left a few players out due to their lack of game time with injury. Williams and AWJ weren't really at the races, whilst North barely touched the ball yet again.

Roberts played his best rugby when he was at the Blues, and I'd hazard a guess, when he was a fair few pounds lighter. I agree that he can pass, but he's never been a distributor that can unlock defenses. Still, I completely agree that he can and should be used far for effectively, we never see him offloading the ball in the tackle like he did so effectively alongside BOD in 2009!

A post WC clear-out was in order. I was calling for Danny Wilson as forwards coach at the time, he improves forward play at every team he's been involved with. Dai young would be another, after a slow start learning the trade, he had the Blues playing some wonderful stuff by the end, and was unlucky not to make a HC final. Not sure of anyone Welsh immediately sticks out as backs coach, Nigel Davies has the most experience, but his struggles as a head coach has dented his credibility, not to mention his time alongside Gareth Jenkins.

I'm still not convinced with Dacey. I see more potential in Elliot Dee. Agree that it was tough on him coming on in that game. Lineout and scrum really did suffer, but very difficult to pinpoint one player when there were so many changes up front by that point.

I 100% want to see Anscombe given a shot at 10. Yet again, he put in a couple of lovely passes to get the ball out wide into space on Sun, and that's what we need if we're going to get our back 3 + 13 into the game. He's not a fullback either, lacks the pace or elusiveness to offer enough threat on the counter attack.
 
The big crack in the Welsh scrum came right after AWJ went off. It was fine until that point. Not sure the sub front rows should take too much blame.
 
No. I don't. However... Besides Naholo, we are short on right wingers atm. McKenzie is coming, whether people like it or not lol.


Naholo/Milner skudder are the current first choice selections on the wing imo. Mckenzie will be lucky to get on the field against wales and wont be selected once Milner Skudder is back.

Naholo was ridiculously good in his comeback game and I dont think he will choke like he did at the WC again.

Personally I really dont think Mckenzie will be very successful at int level either.
 
Personally I really dont think Mckenzie will be very successful at int level either.

While I don't wish to rain on his parade too much so early in his career, I do think he will find the time and space he enjoys in SR in much shorter supply at this next level up.

I found the ease with which a very average Waratahs team was able to keep him contained somewhat worrying.
 
Don't know if Mckenzie will ever see the AB 15 jersey if Smith is still playing, but I will put money on him getting the Joker role in the next Batman movie....that's just scary.
 
McKenzie has a lot of work to do to get up ton international level, I believe he can get there, but we have so many just as good options.

As someone said once NMS gets back, his spot may go.

Shame about Ngatai, as he was looking so good.
 
NMS & Naholo have the right wing to fight over. When Nehe is fit at least.

The one most likely to lose a spot to Nehe is Dagg IMO, look at the squad makeup. 4 guys who can cover 15! Nehe can cover 15 as well! Given that Dagg is not the #1 15 anymore then that spot is better used to continue develop Nehe & Mckenzie. And that will also depend on how McKenzie does when he gets a chance. If he sneaks through a few gaps against the welsh and I expect he will, that should be enough to earn continued selection so they can keep developing his game.

Ben Smith is our 15, sure he can play any position from 10-15 to a high standard but he is now our best, most reliable and most experienced back! 15 is the best place for him.

Savea is on the left but his form is inconsistent.

IMO that leaves room for McKenzie to have a go on the left wing.

I think everyone wants to see McKenzie get a run, but it just seems silly and risky to move Ben Smith to accommodate that. IMO you always put your best 15 at 15 and if you need/want to give a guy a run then put him on the wing.

If it turns out that McKenzie's best position is 15 and hes good at test level then Ben Smith wont keep him out forever. There is like a 9 year age gap between them! I still think McKenzie is a good option to take over at 10 at some stage. We dont see him at 10 much because the Chiefs have Cruden. But the few games he has had there he has been very good. one of the games he had was mind blowing, I actually think given the chance he would quickly become a better 10 than Cruden. But it makes sense for the chiefs to have Cruden at 10 and McKenzie at 15 to utilize their talent.
 
If we go 2-0 up on the Welsh I feel that McKenzie should get a run at 15. McKenzie only turned 21 this year... And we're arguing over him, lol. I mean, I didn't jump on the hype machine last year with him. I was all "ok, let's just see him do it again", and he's better this season. I know Hansen loves Dagg, even when Dagg was terrible, he was still an AB. So I guess you play Dagg when 2-0 up, and then assume that they are giving McKenzie the AB environment like they did to Rhys Marshall, Ardie Savea etc.

Each fullback is absolutely vital to their super team, so it'll be interesting if we get up 2-0. The Highlanders won't want to see Ben Smith playing the 3rd game.
 
NMS & Naholo have the right wing to fight over. When Nehe is fit at least.

The one most likely to lose a spot to Nehe is Dagg IMO, look at the squad makeup. 4 guys who can cover 15! Nehe can cover 15 as well! Given that Dagg is not the #1 15 anymore then that spot is better used to continue develop Nehe & Mckenzie. And that will also depend on how McKenzie does when he gets a chance. If he sneaks through a few gaps against the welsh and I expect he will, that should be enough to earn continued selection so they can keep developing his game.

Ben Smith is our 15, sure he can play any position from 10-15 to a high standard but he is now our best, most reliable and most experienced back! 15 is the best place for him.

Savea is on the left but his form is inconsistent.

IMO that leaves room for McKenzie to have a go on the left wing.

I think everyone wants to see McKenzie get a run, but it just seems silly and risky to move Ben Smith to accommodate that. IMO you always put your best 15 at 15 and if you need/want to give a guy a run then put him on the wing.

If it turns out that McKenzie's best position is 15 and hes good at test level then Ben Smith wont keep him out forever. There is like a 9 year age gap between them! I still think McKenzie is a good option to take over at 10 at some stage. We dont see him at 10 much because the Chiefs have Cruden. But the few games he has had there he has been very good. one of the games he had was mind blowing, I actually think given the chance he would quickly become a better 10 than Cruden. But it makes sense for the chiefs to have Cruden at 10 and McKenzie at 15 to utilize their talent.


Agreed on Mckenzie at 10. He's got more of a chance there than at 15. At 15 teams will target him because of his height at int level and he simply wont fluke his way through defences like he has in super. Cruden is not exactly the most robust 10 we've ever had, Barrett is a flake and Sopoanga is sporadic (but showing signs of maturing).

Ben Smith is co captain. He's locked in until he decides to retire imo. As A Smith once said Ben is the best rugby player he's ever played with. And he's clearly the best FB in the world nobody else even comes close.
 
Agreed on Mckenzie at 10. He's got more of a chance there than at 15. At 15 teams will target him because of his height at int level and he simply wont fluke his way through defences like he has in super. Cruden is not exactly the most robust 10 we've ever had, Barrett is a flake and Sopoanga is sporadic (but showing signs of maturing).

Ben Smith is co captain. He's locked in until he decides to retire imo. As A Smith once said Ben is the best rugby player he's ever played with. And he's clearly the best FB in the world nobody else even comes close.

haha wow...

So Mckenzie is a fluke, Cruden isn't robust, barrett is a flake and Sopoaga(i know I spell it wrong sometimes too) is sporadic?

cmon man... McKenzie is topping some of the most important attacking stats in super rugby and that doesn't happen by fluke. I do think he is going to have to learn some patients and learn vary his attacking and distribution game a bit more more at test level where gaps will be harder to find and getting isolated or conceding turnovers is more heavily punished. Hes so good at switching to attack, the All Blacks can really use him as the go to man for turnovers. Get a turnover or force a poor kick and McKenzie will put opposition teams to the sword.

No Cruden isn't the toughest guy in the line but he has some serious positives to his game. hes technically very good and he has a fantastic eye for the game. maybe the best we have had in that area in the modern era. he does have some negatives to his game though. Hes had both knees done now and it will likely always be an issue, he doesn't have a long kicking game, either at goal or around the field. At the chiefs he has Ngatai, Lowe and Mckenzie to go to for long kicks. yeah hes small, hes very good defender technically but he will always be a direct target for ball runners.

Barrett is no flake, he had a period were he was being compared to carter too much and expected to be Dan Carter. I think because Cruden is more unique he was more able to play his own game where Barrett was expected to be like Dan (Donald suffered the same thing IMO). Barrett is like Carter in that he is a true first receiver, Cruden isn't. Cruden often doesn't receive until he sees an opportunity. Barrett has turned himself into maybe the best defending 10 we have and hes also probably the best 10 we have for attacking the line, hes no the playmaker Cruden is but no one but Cruden is that good. Barretts goal kicking stats are down a bit from where they need to be but he does play half his games at the caketin. Arguably one of the hardest grounds around for kicking.

Its a shame Ngatai is injured, I think he would pair really well at 12 with Barrett.

Sopoaga strikes me as a very good 10 for when we are going forward. Stronger runner than Cruden and his goal kicking has been pretty good. hes not so good going backwards and his defense isn't as good as the other options. Its not always the role of a 10 to be a great defender. Carter is arguably the best tackler the game has seen at first five so we have been a bit blessed there for a while. We would have to hide him a bit but hes so good going forwards and has a good established combination with the likes of the Smiths and Naholo.

To change the subject....

From a welsh point of view they really need to attack this first test. The AB's are most vulnerable for the first test each year and the first test in any series. They are also a bit vulnerable for the last test of the year as well at the end of the year due to fatigue. But this is a real chance for Wales, If I was their coach I would be going all out for this first test. No building into the series or conservative start. Focus on yourselves, come up with a game plan that will surprise the AB's and give the first test everything. Forget its a series, pretend this first test is the WC final. You haven't beaten the AB's since the 50's? The first test is your best chance to change that. I have a feeling whatever happens first test the AB's will improve a lot more for the 2nd and 3rd.

This is the AB's first test Without McCaw, Carter, Nonu, Smith, Mealamu and Woodcock. Plus the likes of Whitelock(injured), SBW & Messam(7's) aren't there either, thats like ~1000 test caps of experience missing from last years team... This is the biggest turnover from one season to the next that a Modern AB squad has had. You need to take this opportunity very seriously.
 
My predicted teams:
NZ

1. Crockett
2. Coles
3. Franks
4. Retallick
5. Whitelock
6. Kaino
7. Sam Cane
8. Read
9. Smith
10. Cruden
11. Savea
12. Crotty
13. Fekitoa
14. Naholo
15. Smith

16. Taylor
17. Moody
18. Faumuina
19. Dixon
20. Savea
21. Kerr-Barlow
22. Barrett
23. Dagg

Wales

1. Evans
2. Baldwin
3. Lee
4. Charteris
5. Wyn Jones
6. Moriarty (Assuming Lydiate is out)
7. Warburton (Assuming he's fit)
8. Faletau
9. Webb
10. Biggar
11. Amos
12. Roberts
13. Davies
14. North
15. Williams

16. Owens
17. Jenkins
18. Francis
19. Ball
20. King
21. Davies
22. Priestland
23. Williams
 
Do Kiwis here think Crockett will start over Moody?

As for Wales -

- Lydiate is definitely out; so looks like Moriaty will definitely start based on the England v Wales game.

- Surely Anscombe will be on he bench at the very least. If not for his experience of NZ rugby.
 
i would prefer moody to start over crockett but neither choice would surprise me
 
haha wow...

So Mckenzie is a fluke, Cruden isn't robust, barrett is a flake and Sopoaga(i know I spell it wrong sometimes too) is sporadic?

So be fair, that isn't what austingr said...

"At 15 teams will target him because of his height at int level and he simply wont fluke his way through defences like he has in super."

As I aid earlier, he has the potential, but the kinds of things he's been doing at SR level will not be easy to achieve at the next level up. There simply will not be as much time or space as he has been enjoying.
 
The other interesting thing with McKenzie is that since Ngatai got injured he has struggled as swell, he made it look easy when the Chiefs were going forward.

Now the Chiefs are not going forward so much, he has struggled, whereas Ben Smith always looks good regardless of which way the Highlanders are going.

He needs to learn to make a difference no matter how the Chiefa are going, I believe he will, it will just take time.
 
that is kinda nit picking with Mckenzie I guess its natural to do that when considering how he will go at the next level. The whole chiefs backline doesn't look as good when Ngatai isn't there but the same can be said about a lot of other players and setups in other teams around key players. When the chiefs have been at their best this season hes really been the combinatin of Cruden, Ngatai and McKenzie working together. I think if you would have taken any one of those guys out things would have broken down. Do we really know how good Sapoaga is? I mean he plays the vast majority of his rugby outside the best halfback in the world... Kinda gives him an unfair advantage over the other 10's...

Mckenzie is very good in those broken play situations, quick turnovers, fractured defenses, when gaps open up he will run riot. But it wont always be his job to create those situations, that's a team effort. Yes the opportunities wont come as often at test level. But when the do come they mean a lot more. So even if he creates just 1-2 big moments in a game where some games at super level he seems to create them constantly. He will still be a success, importantly while he still has some things to work on hes a very good tackler, kicker and under the high ball. So he has the skillset to go with the attacking game he has.

Maybe its worth looking at McKenzie as a combination player. I think some players you kinda need to select players around them specifically to help take advantage of their strengths and/or help protect their weaknesses. It may not always be the case, it is early days for him.
 
No doubt, Wales need to get amongst the AB's early in the first test and try to knock them off their stride as quickly as possible.
Thats their best chance to get a victory and put the skids on the new AB's to try and secure a test series victory.
By the third test the Black machine will be in full swing and it's going to be a seriously uphill struggle for the Dragons.
 

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