Premiership Rugby 22/23 - Rd 22

[Reiser99]

Watching the highlights, how the **** does Genge get a yellow and Taylor and Woodburn get reds. Refereeing is so inconsistent. Pearce especially seems to do everything to justify not giving reds even when they warrant it and at the other end Dickson finding any little reason to give a red.

 

[West Country Wail]

We were then completely swept aside but it feels like the players just checked out after that call. Unprofessional but given the reaction from a lot of current players, it seemed like it had a real impact. BT trying very hard to avoid any mention of it.

Shame really as that's one hell of a record Ashton has set.

 

[Gavin]

Decided to check out the Woodburn yellow card, which led to a red card, and tbh it's a bit mental.

Does this mean that if an attacking player dives for the line, a defensive player can't dive towards them in an attempt to hold them up? Or as Austin Healey said you can dive on the ground and then come in contact with the attacking player?

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

Decided to check out the Woodburn yellow card, which led to a red card, and tbh it's a bit mental.

Does this mean that if an attacking player dives for the line, a defensive player can't dive towards them in an attempt to hold them up? Or as Austin Healey said you can dive on the ground and then come in contact with the attacking player?

I love rugby so much but laws and refereeing like this are going to make me stop watching.

 

[Reiser99]

Decided to check out the Woodburn yellow card, which led to a red card, and tbh it's a bit mental.

Does this mean that if an attacking player dives for the line, a defensive player can't dive towards them in an attempt to hold them up? Or as Austin Healey said you can dive on the ground and then come in contact with the attacking player?

I guess if you follow the laws then if Dickson does decide he's illegally pushed him into touch then he had to show him a yellow. What's ridiculous is that diving on a player like that to push them out has never been punished at all as far as I know. I feel like it's maybe something refs should clarify with WR because it is ridiculous to punish it like that. Seen far worse with players shoulder barging players into touch that are let go.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I guess if you follow the laws then if Dickson does decide he's illegally pushed him into touch then he had to show him a yellow. What's ridiculous is that diving on a player like that to push them out has never been punished at all as far as I know. I feel like it's maybe something refs should clarify with WR because it is ridiculous to punish it like that. Seen far worse with players shoulder barging players into touch that are let go.

I've only seen it punished if it is clearly after the try was scored / the player dived at their head. Diving early to try to slide underneath the ball has never been punished before imo.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

The judgement in the Woodburn case will be interesting. It looks soft, but I can see why the decision was given. This wasn’t a double tackle - there was a clearly completed tackle before he arrived and he slid in off his feet trying to play both ball and man before Ashton had placed the ball - that would be a pen anywhere else on the pitch (unaware of any in the act of scoring exceptions). Action deemed, probably rightly, to have prevented a try so PT and 2nd yellow inevitable.

I suspect we may be railing against inconsistency rather than the decision itself.

 

[Quel Carreleur]

The judgement in the Woodburn case will be interesting. It looks soft, but I can see why the decision was given. This wasn’t a double tackle - there was a clearly completed tackle before he arrived and he slid in off his feet trying to play both ball and man before Ashton had placed the ball - that would be a pen anywhere else on the pitch (unaware of any in the act of scoring exceptions). Action deemed, probably rightly, to have prevented a try so PT and 2nd yellow inevitable.

I suspect we may be railing against inconsistency rather than the decision itself.

Yep, it feels like Dickson is right in law here; and it also feels incredibly soft; and that it's the law that's an ass.
However, which law?

Diving on a man who's already on the floor? That's a safety issue; and whilst this is a soft one, the law itself seems fair.
Penalty try with an identifiable offender resulting in yellow? That's an absolutely fair law.
2 yellows = red? That's an absolutely fair law - it's just that Woodburn gave away 2 soft yellows; so the red feels even softer.

I'd also suggest that it's such a rare set of circumstances it'll likely never be repeated that all aspects are so soft, but technically illegal.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Diving on the man on the floor feels harsh as, like Healy was saying, they were both on the floor. I always thought that law was a player safety one, stopping people doing WWE-esque flying elbows into a grounded player, but Woodburn slid into a grounded player trying to hold up the ball
Playing the man on the floor I get, but man it feels harsh - a few centimetres more and Woodburn is allowed to slide in and try and hold the ball up, a split-second before and Ashton isn't a tackled player and Woodburn is allowed to double tackle.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a clarification by WR about it, they do sometimes do that when there's high profile incidents like this

 

[Quel Carreleur]

Diving on the man on the floor feels harsh as, like Healy was saying, they were both on the floor. I always thought that law was a player safety one, stopping people doing WWE-esque flying elbows into a grounded player, but Woodburn slid into a grounded player trying to hold up the ball
Playing the man on the floor I get, but man it feels harsh - a few centimetres more and Woodburn is allowed to slide in and try and hold the ball up, a split-second before and Ashton isn't a tackled player and Woodburn is allowed to double tackle.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a clarification by WR about it, they do sometimes do that when there's high profile incidents like this

Yep - This incident wasn't dangerous from Woodburn; but years of asking for clarity and consistency has taken away the ref's discretion here.

Thinking a little more on it - I think it's the 2 yellows = red law that should change.
It was fine when yellows were given for dangerous play or excessively cynical play; but now they're given for technical infringements such as not being as good as your opposite number (props, especially) or fumbling an intercept - then that's the one that's the most out of date - to my mind.

 

[Reiser99]

Yep - This incident wasn't dangerous from Woodburn; but years of asking for clarity and consistency has taken away the ref's discretion here.

Thinking a little more on it - I think it's the 2 yellows = red law that should change.
It was fine when yellows were given for dangerous play or excessively cynical play; but now they're given for technical infringements such as not being as good as your opposite number (props, especially), then that's the one that's the most out of date - to my mind.

You make a good point, yellow cards can be anything from hitting your shoulder into someone's head (Genge) to a sub prop coming on and being mashed in the scrum then sent to the bin if the whole team is on a warning.

Issue is how do you separate bad from cynical because some people will still try to bend the rules.

I agree with your previous assessment, this is a freak occurrence where all the rules worked together against Woodburn. I doubt we will ever see something similar again anytime soon. However, if Woodburn already had a yellow he should know he has to be squeaky clean and he wasn't. He took a risk and it backfired. Yes he might have got away with it with another ref, but that's how it is these days. Also if he hadn't deliberately knocked on in the first place he wouldn't have been red carded.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

The whole what’s the point of a yellow and 2 yellows automatically equalling red needs to be properly looked at. Just too much of a blunt instrument now.

Baxter was right in the week - too many games are being ruined by sides being down in numbers.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

 

[TRF_Olyy]

What's that for? Just a friendly?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

What's that for? Just a friendly?

Yep making up for the missing 2 fixtures from wasps and worcester

 

[Reiser99]

Says pt1, when is pt2?

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

You make a good point, yellow cards can be anything from hitting your shoulder into someone's head (Genge) to a sub prop coming on and being mashed in the scrum then sent to the bin if the whole team is on a warning.

Issue is how do you separate bad from cynical because some people will still try to bend the rules.

I agree with your previous assessment, this is a freak occurrence where all the rules worked together against Woodburn. I doubt we will ever see something similar again anytime soon. However, if Woodburn already had a yellow he should know he has to be squeaky clean and he wasn't. He took a risk and it backfired. Yes he might have got away with it with another ref, but that's how it is these days. Also if he hadn't deliberately knocked on in the first place he wouldn't have been red carded.

So Woodburn should have just stood there and let Ashton score the try??

 

[Crash Hamster]

Inevitably, people are posting clips on twitter of players sliding towards the try line being prevented from scoring by other players sliding into them and being praised for doing so.

"You're out of the game when you're on the ground" really does need some clarification.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Says pt1, when is pt2?

Next week

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Least surprising news of the season: Genge cited

He'll get 6 reduced to 3 then a week of tackle school to bring him down to 2, so he's got a very long rest before the RWC warm-ups now

He owns a gym in Leicester, can he go back there and train with Tigers until the world cup and try and regain some form?