Rugby 2012 - Teams & Competitions

[TRF C A Iversen]

Fell away? No, just changed its name. It was NPC then was (Air New Zealand) bought, it then got changed to AirNewZealandCup (ANZC), now ITM have bought the rights / sponsorship to it, so it is now ITM Cup. No idea what ITM so don't know what the initials are.

It stands for Independant Timber Merchants. Those these sponsorship names seem to change about every 10 years or so, but it's still well supported and known in NZ as the NPC or National Provincial Championship, which is now rather the description of the comp, rather than the name.

Also, rather than fell away, it's expanded into a fourteen team competition which most NZ'ers love as it's been exciting with a lot of close matches, but the NZRFU want to cut back to 10 team, due to costs.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

If you want to add the Currie Cup / NPC or ITM meh

Then you got to look at adding Div 1 in England, Welsh Prem in Wales etc etc etc ...

 

[ranger]

Probably the most honest answer.

I wouldnt mind them being in, but then would you include australia's main comp? Japan's? Yanklands?

What would be the cut off?

Probably true, but both comps arent as prestigous as they once were. since super rugby is the main comp here in the southern hemisphere. I think the japanese club rugby deserves to be in a game considering the high quality players going and playing there these days, and considering how big of a market rugby has in japan you would be stupid not to tap into that market.

Australia really needs to get a national comp going, its a bit shameful really.

Judging by your comments Hamez, you dont really know what you are talking about. I would suggest you stop offering suggestions on topics you have no understanding of.
Both Currie Cup and the ANZC are about on a par with the Magners league (This is based both on my own observations and that Irish lock that sat on the bench for Southland last year made similar comments), that is a level far above the japanese league let alone the non existant American and Australian competitions. Its like comparing the Scottish and Italian rugby teams with that of Russia and Lithuania.

Also, Super 14 is the main comp in Australia, because they dont have any alternative. If you were to go to Taranaki, Hawkesbay, Manawatu, Counties, Northland, Tasman ect and ask the average rugby supporter who their team was, i can tell you right now they would not say a super 14 team. The super 14 sides are based in the large citys, the rural areas would be lucky to get one game played in their town every 3 years, as a result there is a huge following for the NPC competition. I also invite you to watch a single Currie Cup game, draw your opinions after that. That competition is fierce.

If you want to add the Currie Cup / NPC or ITM meh

Then you got to look at adding Div 1 in England, Welsh Prem in Wales etc etc etc ...

Don't be a dick Cymro..

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

Judging by your comments Hamez, you dont really know what you are talking about. I would suggest you stop offering suggestions on topics you have no understanding of.
Both Currie Cup and the ANZC are about on a par with the Magners league (This is based both on my own observations and that Irish lock that sat on the bench for Southland last year made similar comments), that is a level far above the japanese league let alone the non existant American and Australian competitions. Its like comparing the Scottish and Italian rugby teams with that of Russia and Lithuania.

Also, Super 14 is the main comp in Australia, because they dont have any alternative. If you were to go to Taranaki, Hawkesbay, Manawatu, Counties, Northland, Tasman ect and ask the average rugby supporter who their team was, i can tell you right now they would not say a super 14 team. The super 14 sides are based in the large citys, the rural areas would be lucky to get one game played in their town every 3 years, as a result there is a huge following for the NPC competition. I also invite you to watch a single Currie Cup game, draw your opinions after that. That competition is fierce.




Don't be a dick Cymro..

I can't condone a mod being called a dick, but I can condone the sentiment.

The Southern Hemisphere does not have enough representation in the Rugby games if Magners League, the Top 14 comp, the Celtic League and Lions Tour are added to the existing Guinness Premiership, Six Nations and European Trophy.

All that and we are expected to have Tri-Nations and Super 14 only? That's incredibly selfish.

Surely there are some fair minded people in the NH who can show that it's not all blind me, me, me up there? I'm trying not to tar you all with the same brush, but come on!

Rugby is not the number one sport in the UK or France, it is in New Zealand and not far off in South Africa. All that counts for nothing in this game when there's an obese "more for me" attitude coming across.

As for the comps themselves, if they are so crap, why do NH scouts come over to pick up players from them to prop up the Northern comps? I'm not protesting them doing it, just asking why they are after players from such worthless competitions? I mean what good would players from low-grade rugby do for you guys?

 

[Versus]

If you want to add the Currie Cup / NPC or ITM meh

Then you got to look at adding Div 1 in England, Welsh Prem in Wales etc etc etc ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_British_and_Irish_Lions_tour_to_New_Zealand

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_British_and_Irish_Lions_tour_to_South_Africa


Please, for the love of god, look at the results before voicing your ignorant opinion again. Both the NPC teams and Currie Cup teams nearly beat the British and Irish Lions, you want to know the funny thing aswell? They didn't even play our best teams. I beat you anything you'd like if the British and Irish Lions played either the Blue Bulls or the Canterbury team, they would get their asses handed to them. Infact, the royal xv, who in my knowledge aren't in the Currie Cup, nearly beat the Lions and were leading them until the last few minutes of the game by a large margin.

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_British_and_Irish_Lions_tour_to_New_Zealand

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_British_and_Irish_Lions_tour_to_South_Africa


Please, for the love of god, look at the results before voicing your ignorant opinion again. Both the NPC teams and Currie Cup teams nearly beat the British and Irish Lions, you want to know the funny thing aswell? They didn't even play our best teams. I beat you anything you'd like if the British and Irish Lions played either the Blue Bulls or the Canterbury team, they would get their asses handed to them. Infact, the royal xv, who in my knowledge aren't in the Currie Cup, nearly beat the Lions and were leading them until the last few minutes of the game by a large margin.

I'm going to say that honestly, this time the SH didn't start this TRF argument.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_British_and_Irish_Lions_tour_to_New_Zealand

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_British_and_Irish_Lions_tour_to_South_Africa


Please, for the love of god, look at the results before voicing your ignorant opinion again. Both the NPC teams and Currie Cup teams nearly beat the British and Irish Lions, you want to know the funny thing aswell? They didn't even play our best teams. I beat you anything you'd like if the British and Irish Lions played either the Blue Bulls or the Canterbury team, they would get their asses handed to them. Infact, the royal xv, who in my knowledge aren't in the Currie Cup, nearly beat the Lions and were leading them until the last few minutes of the game by a large margin.

Hahaha fair play you have just backed yourself into a corner.

1. Why have I been called ignorant?
2. My opinion is NOT ignorant its an opinion, the fact that you don't like it is all well and good but its not an ignorant post.
3. Have a bit of respect before having a small dig at me.
4. Just going over what's been posted previously people want all kinds of teams but if you go and put in something like Currie Cup etc then im afraid you have to include the B&I Cup and then include the teams from Div 1 England ... blah blah blah etc. I think having Super 15, Magners League / Guniess Prem / HEC + Top 14 (Despite not being fussed on Top 14, maybe similar team slection to those in previous Rugby games) and S15 is just enough. People are expecting way to much from HB Studio and need to think realistic.
5. What has the results from a previous Lions Tour got to do with what teams go in the game? Your argument has no base when you put something that has to relevance to the argument!
6. Sorry nearly winning is here nor there ... a win is a win no matter how you can justify it.
7. I can't really understand how the Lions were added into this debate when frankly they have nothing to do with adding Currie Cup, NPC, BI Cup etc
8. I can carry on picking through your post but I can't really be bothered to waste my time anymore on you!

 

[Hamez]

Judging by your comments Hamez, you dont really know what you are talking about. I would suggest you stop offering suggestions on topics you have no understanding of.
Both Currie Cup and the ANZC are about on a par with the Magners league (This is based both on my own observations and that Irish lock that sat on the bench for Southland last year made similar comments), that is a level far above the japanese league let alone the non existant American and Australian competitions. Its like comparing the Scottish and Italian rugby teams with that of Russia and Lithuania.

Also, Super 14 is the main comp in Australia, because they dont have any alternative. If you were to go to Taranaki, Hawkesbay, Manawatu, Counties, Northland, Tasman ect and ask the average rugby supporter who their team was, i can tell you right now they would not say a super 14 team. The super 14 sides are based in the large citys, the rural areas would be lucky to get one game played in their town every 3 years, as a result there is a huge following for the NPC competition. I also invite you to watch a single Currie Cup game, draw your opinions after that. That competition is fierce.




Don't be a dick Cymro..

I never said they were bad comps, infact last year the currie cup was of a higher standard than super 14. What I am saying the Unions both see super 14 as more important for the development of the game than NPC and Currie Cups. They arent as important as they once were. The South africans just like to be difficult and get whats best for south african rugby, which is fair enough, they have the crowds and the top quality players.

Have you actually watched these japanese comp lately its at a pretty high standard and I woud say some of their teams would be highly competitive in the super 14. And considering they are the third highest playing rugby nations in numbers in the world, they deserve to have their club rugby in as much as the NPC or currie cup or magners league or top 14 or guiness premiership.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Don't be a dick Cymro..

No need for that was there.

There are simpler ways of disagreeing with a post. Maybe something similar to ... 'I don't agree' or 'oh c'mon' ... no need to get childish though.

 

[Versus]

Hahaha fair play you have just backed yourself into a corner.

1. Why have I been called ignorant?
2. My opinion is NOT ignorant its an opinion, the fact that you don't like it is all well and good but its not an ignorant post.
3. Have a bit of respect before having a small dig at me.
4. Just going over what's been posted previously people want all kinds of teams but if you go and put in something like Currie Cup etc then im afraid you have to include the B&I Cup and then include the teams from Div 1 England ... blah blah blah etc. I think having Super 15, Magners League / Guniess Prem / HEC + Top 14 (Despite not being fussed on Top 14, maybe similar team slection to those in previous Rugby games) and S15 is just enough. People are expecting way to much from HB Studio and need to think realistic.
5. What has the results from a previous Lions Tour got to do with what teams go in the game? Your argument has no base when you put something that has to relevance to the argument!
6. Sorry nearly winning is here nor there ... a win is a win no matter how you can justify it.
7. I can't really understand how the Lions were added into this debate when frankly they have nothing to do with adding Currie Cup, NPC, BI Cup etc
8. I can carry on picking through your post but I can't really be bothered to waste my time anymore on you!

1 ) You are being called ignorant because you don't know the level of NPC and Currie Cup.
2 ) Opinions can be ignorant, just like if I said the Jews were behind September 11, if I believed it, it would be an ignorant (anti-semitic) opinion. Or that the Jews built the concentration camps to kill themselves.
3 ) Have some respect before comparing teams like the Bedford Blues to Canterbury / Wellington / Natal Sharks / Blue Bulls
4 ) I don't really want it in if there isn't enough money for it, I said it there is money left over and you have done everything you possibly can to improve gameplay, add them in with a British and Irish Lions tour.
5 ) Because the British and Irish Lions are supposed to be the best of Europe (excluding France) coming to play SH teams and these teams you are comparing to the likes of Bedford Blues / Exeter Chiefs, came pretty close on a lot of times to beating them.
6 ) You are right, a win is a win, but don't forget NPC + Currie Cup at the time didn't have any international players on the tour, because the internationals were preparing for the Lions games, so it was a team full of internationals picked from four different international teams vs non-internationals, many of whom, were non Super 14 players aswell, this is as big as when Georgia nearly beat Ireland.
7 ) They do have everything to do with it, because they play them every time they tour the countries
8 ) Stop with your holier than thou attitude

 

[TRF_Cymro]

1 ) You are being called ignorant because you don't know the level of NPC and Currie Cup.
2 ) Opinions can be ignorant, just like if I said the Jews were behind September 11, if I believed it, it would be an ignorant (anti-semitic) opinion. Or that the Jews built the concentration camps to kill themselves.
3 ) Have some respect before comparing teams like the Bedford Blues to Canterbury / Wellington / Natal Sharks / Blue Bulls
4 ) I don't really want it in if there isn't enough money for it, I said it there is money left over and you have done everything you possibly can to improve gameplay, add them in with a British and Irish Lions tour.
5 ) Because the British and Irish Lions are supposed to be the best of Europe (excluding France) coming to play SH teams and these teams you are comparing to the likes of Bedford Blues / Exeter Chiefs, came pretty close on a lot of times to beating them.
6 ) You are right, a win is a win, but don't forget NPC + Currie Cup at the time didn't have any international players on the tour, because the internationals were preparing for the Lions games, so it was a team full of internationals picked from four different international teams vs non-internationals, many of whom, were non Super 14 players aswell, this is as big as when Georgia nearly beat Ireland.
7 ) They do have everything to do with it, because they play them every time they tour the countries
8 ) Stop with your holier than thou attitude

Please have the respect to find where I compared the Blue Bulls to the Bedford Blues ... I simply said 'If you want to add the Currie Cup / NPC or ITM meh. Then you got to look at adding Div 1 in England, Welsh Prem in Wales etc etc etc ...' please fill me in where I said don't add NPC etc and PLEASE tell me where in your point 3 do I compare the Blue Bulls to the Bedford Blues for example?

I also watch the NPC / Currie Cup on Sky when they appear and I know what the level is like thank you. I don't need some clever person telling me how good / bad it is

 

[Versus]

Blue Bulls is different from the Bulls, to begin with. By saying if you add Currie Cup / NPC, then you have to add Div 1 England, Welsh Prem in Wales, this means they are of the same standard, and if one were to be included, the other would have to be, because it would be unfair to the other because you are saying they are the same standard. Also, stop with this respect ''crap''. Because adding Div 1 and Welsh Prem is a waste of money, because barely anyone in Europe knows about the Guinness Premiership teams, let alone Welsh Prem and Division 1. However everyone in South Africa and New Zealand knows about these tournaments.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Blue Bulls is different from the Bulls, to begin with. By saying if you add Currie Cup / NPC, then you have to add Div 1 England, Welsh Prem in Wales, this means they are of the same standard, and if one were to be included, the other would have to be, because it would be unfair to the other because you are saying they are the same standard. Also, stop with this respect bullshit. Because adding Div 1 and Welsh Prem is a waste of money, because barely anyone in Europe knows about the Guinness Premiership teams, let alone Welsh Prem and Division 1. However everyone in South Africa and New Zealand knows about these tournaments.

You have assumed that entirely, I never said same standard. Get a grip and learn to read what is there.

You just shot yourself in the foot by saying ' because barely anyone in Europe knows about the Guinness Premiership teams' ... take off your tinted spectacles and open up and see that people do know GP teams. Lesko from Georgia will tell you that he knows teams from the GP, as do most of our other European posters so please don't carry on and say that people in Europe don't know anything about the GP.

 

[Versus]

You have assumed that entirely, I never said same standard. Get a grip and learn to read what is there.

You just shot yourself in the foot by saying ' because barely anyone in Europe knows about the Guinness Premiership teams' ... take off your tinted spectacles and open up and see that people do know GP teams. Lesko from Georgia will tell you that he knows teams from the GP, as do most of our other European posters so please don't carry on and say that people in Europe don't know anything about the GP.

What about people not interested in rugby? Everybody not interested in rugby knows about NPC and in South Africa Currie Cup. Most people here don't even know the London Wasps logo I wear from playing for their academy.

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

You have assumed that entirely, I never said same standard. Get a grip and learn to read what is there.

You just shot yourself in the foot by saying ' because barely anyone in Europe knows about the Guinness Premiership teams' ... take off your tinted spectacles and open up and see that people do know GP teams. Lesko from Georgia will tell you that he knows teams from the GP, as do most of our other European posters so please don't carry on and say that people in Europe don't know anything about the GP.

Honestly, the fact that rugby fans in Europe on TRF know about European rugby shouldn't be a surprise.

I've had a mate who's just come back from living in London for four years, he's told me had a bit of a job finding people over there who would discuss the rugby that's played in their own country, other than people from the club he signed up to play for. Seriously if you asked 100 random British people throughout the UK and ask them to name 5 Guinness Premiership teams and with how big soccer is over there, you'll be really, really lucky to find 40, (let's really stretch it 50) people who could do it.

Over here and in South Africa you'd get 85-95% every time.

I think Versus and a couple of others will get really hot under the collar, because let's face it, the Southern Hemisphere plays and buys a lot of Rugby games and if it took until your Div 1 sides were included for the NPC or Currie Cup sides to show up it would be a totally unfair situation. By then the Celtic sides, Magners League, Top 14 and a Lions Tour would all be likely already in the game.

That would end up with about 12 competitions for the NH and 3 for the SH. That's simply not even fair on a sales/marketing level. It borders on making absolutely no sense.

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

I've just had to delete posts from a member who is trying to stir in this forum with regard to posting stats which have no relation to the topic. We are discussing teams and competitions for the next Rugby game. Not a stats based argument which states that people from larger player bases or population bases have more right to their competitions being in the next game. Registered players stats posted in this particular thread are irrelevant and will be deleted.

Back on topic.

 

[ranger]

No need for that was there.

There are simpler ways of disagreeing with a post. Maybe something similar to ... 'I don't agree' or 'oh c'mon' ... no need to get childish though.

Sorry mate i thought you were just being intentionally obtuse. Kind of like if i said "Oh you want to put the English national rugby team in? but then you'd have to throw in the likes of Tunisia, Kenya ect.." Trolling i think they call it. I have no time for that carry on.

But you actually seem to be serious so i take that back. I have to ask though, how on earth do you think English Div 1 and Welsh prem are anywhere near a comparitive level to ANZC and Currie Cup? It defies logic.
Il throw you a list actually,
-Lefeimi Mafi
-Jeremy Manning
-Stan Wright
-Daniel Browne
-Tim Molenaar
-Joe Duffey
-Brent Wilson
-Mark Sorenson
-Mark Robinson
-Marty Veale

These are just a few of the guys from New Zealand, who ONLY played NPC rugby. And were then signed on to elite level rugby teams in europe on the basis of their NPC performances. How many guys do you think could come out of English Div 1 and walk into a Super 14 side?

Also, the likes of Isaia Toeava, Jason Shoemark, Scott Waldrom, Mike Delaney ect have made the All Blacks on the basis of their performances in the NPC. How many English Div 1 players get picked up for England?

NPC and Currie Cup are so far above English Div 1 that i quite rightly took your comparison as an intential insult.

 

[nickdnz]

Hmm, I like the idea of a ANZ Cup and Currie Cup but I think it may do more for rugby in an international market to have the Japan Pro League and the New Professional Russian Competition. Licencing is a big issue here so as reasonable as possible with demands will ensure they are more likely to be added.

 

[TRF C A Iversen]

Sorry mate i thought you were just being intentionally obtuse. Kind of like if i said "Oh you want to put the English national rugby team in? but then you'd have to throw in the likes of Tunisia, Kenya ect.." Trolling i think they call it. I have no time for that carry on.

But you actually seem to be serious so i take that back. I have to ask though, how on earth do you think English Div 1 and Welsh prem are anywhere near a comparitive level to ANZC and Currie Cup? It defies logic.
Il throw you a list actually,
-Lefeimi Mafi
-Jeremy Manning
-Stan Wright
-Daniel Browne
-Tim Molenaar
-Joe Duffey
-Brent Wilson
-Mark Sorenson
-Mark Robinson
-Marty Veale

These are just a few of the guys from New Zealand, who ONLY played NPC rugby. And were then signed on to elite level rugby teams in europe on the basis of their NPC performances. How many guys do you think could come out of English Div 1 and walk into a Super 14 side?

Also, the likes of Isaia Toeava, Jason Shoemark, Scott Waldrom, Mike Delaney ect have made the All Blacks on the basis of their performances in the NPC. How many English Div 1 players get picked up for England?

NPC and Currie Cup are so far above English Div 1 that i quite rightly took your comparison as an intential insult.

I have been absolutely shocked at how little understanding there is of the level of competition and skill there is in the NPC and Currie Cups. That list you have is really a small sample of the players who've gone from NPC level to the major European teams over the years.

I think the thing that winds me up the most is that nobody from the Southern Hemisphere is saying that if new comps were added that the Magners League, Celtic League and Top 14 shouldn't be considered or anything like that.

We're merely saying that when HB look at Southern Hemisphere comps, look at ours. What on earth is wrong with that.

Our competitions are broadcast internationally and have history and prestige, which last time I looked are major qualities in the world of rugby.

To me it's been very insulting and a one way exercise in being unfair too.

 

[Hamez]

why the bloody hell was my post deleted? it wasnt insulting, it was just some figures and im sure alot of people would have been surprised about them. and it was just as on topic as the other people.