[RWC2023] England vs Chile (23/09/2023)

[Leonormous Boozer]

Think I'd flip 2 and 3 tbh. Having a FB who can playmake is nice but not necessary; that second playmaker role can be filled by both 12 and 13. On the other hand, if a fullback doesn't have pace then IMO they're always going to struggle to a degree in defence if they come up against a genuine speedster in open field.

Agreed, 1 and 3 give you a strong foundation. The best 15 in the world will almost always have 2, it's probably Willemse right now but you can still be world class if you couple 1 and 3 with elite strike running like Keenan.

 

[Which Tyler]

Think I'd flip 2 and 3 tbh. Having a FB who can playmake is nice but not necessary; that second playmaker role can be filled by both 12 and 13. On the other hand, if a fullback doesn't have pace then IMO they're always going to struggle to a degree in defence if they come up against a genuine speedster in open field.

For my money (and I'm an ex-SH, so don't really take my word for it) FB has the best view of the pitch of anyone, for calling plays; they can also have the biggest individual influence on a play by picking the right line at the right time, and coming onto the ball already at a full sprint.
For my money (etc etc) FB needs a base minimum of pace to be effective, but it's not really an advantage until there's a pretty big jump in speed. So yeah, I guess someone without that base minimum isn't really suited to FB, but you'd need pretty exceptional pace for it to start being a plus point, rather than no-a-minus point.

Of course, it's all opinion anyway.

I agree. Interesting on Smith vs Steward how much on defence do you sacrifice for improvements on 2 and 3.

For me, sacrificing defence from the FB is like sacrificing passing from a SH, game management from a FH, or lineout throwing from a hooker...
Every position has a prerequisite that is non-negotiable, and I won't sacrifice it (but then, we're not really talking about sacrifice here, but about compromise - Smiths defence is barely good enough at FH, nowhere near good enough at FB - but can easily be trained)

 

[whocaresaboutthetruth]

Yet Smith is still no more a FB than Farrell is in all reality. If you look at the kick chase Wales put in against Australia or how SA play. Smith would get absolutely murdered. It also sends out the wrong message to Freddie Steward and any aspiring England fullback.

He might be worth a roll of the dice in the last 20. But in my view you select the best full back in the squad and that's FS.

Imagine being viewed as the best current english qualified player in your position and you are dropped for a bloke who's never really played union in that position. Who's arguably not even the best English player in there own position as it is. Here's looking at you Sam Burgess.

For my money (and I'm an ex-SH, so don't really take my word for it) FB has the best view of the pitch of anyone, for calling plays; they can also have the biggest individual influence on a play by picking the right line at the right time, and coming onto the ball already at a full sprint.
For my money (etc etc) FB needs a base minimum of pace to be effective, but it's not really an advantage until there's a pretty big jump in speed. So yeah, I guess someone without that base minimum isn't really suited to FB, but you'd need pretty exceptional pace for it to start being a plus point, rather than no-a-minus point.

Of course, it's all opinion anyway.


For me, sacrificing defence from the FB is like sacrificing passing from a SH, game management from a FH, or lineout throwing from a hooker...
Every position has a prerequisite that is non-negotiable, and I won't sacrifice it (but then, we're not really talking about sacrifice here, but about compromise - Smiths defence is barely good enough at FH, nowhere near good enough at FB - but can easily be trained)

How many times during a game does a full back actually make a one on one tackle though?.I know 15s are known as the last line of defence but in my opinion it's not often that a fb makes a try stopping tackle during games.if the attack has broken your defensive line there's very little a fb can do.The fb role has definitely changed in recent years to more of a 10 role.And I'm not championing smith over steward because both players have there positives but I personally think smith is probably Englands most dangerous player but I don't necessarily think he's the best 10 for this England team so if there's a way to get him on the field in games I'd certainly be looking at it .

 

[Geordie]

Ahh, okay, fair enough then.

Then I'd say "there's more than one way to skin a cat"

My priorities for a FB are
1. Defensive solidity (high ball and 1-on-1 tackling)
2. Playmaking (whether calling plays for his FH, or judging when and how to join the line)
3. Pace (doesn't have to be winger-like, but pace is always scary)

But then, I always preferred Matt Perry to Iain Balshaw (or better yet, play both, with IB on the wing).
Of course, a Cullen can do all those exceptionally well.

So your picking Carpenter at FB for the 6n then....

 

[Geordie]

Or Elliott Obatoyimbo....

 

[Nudger]

Smith ain't a fullback
Farrell ain't a centre
We have to pick 1 fly half, Smith for me and the other 2 don't get on the bench

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Smith ain't a fullback
Farrell ain't a centre
We have to pick 1 fly half, Smith for me and the other 2 don't get on the bench

Please explain the logic of no 10 cover

 

[Which Tyler]

How many times during a game does a full back actually make a one on one tackle though?.

Which is why I only mentioned 1-on-1 tackles as part of "defence" - which is about so much more.
Off the top of my head (usual proviso.s about being a SH)
Single most important aspect of defence for a FB is probably the high ball, then reading the game, then communication with his fellow back 3 players, and his defensive captain, then tackle technique in general, then defensive rucking, and finally 1-on-1 tackling specifically.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Where's this idea come from that's Smiths not a good tackler? He's standard as a FH.

 

[Nudger]

Please explain the logic of no 10 cover

Mallins of the bench

 

[Which Tyler]

Where's this idea come from that's Smiths not a good tackler? He's standard as a FH.

Sorry, I think that was me - should have said "acceptable for fly half". Not sure if I was being harsh because I was thinking defence in terms of FB, or being lazy.
It's not something I've particularly looked for when watching him, his defence seems perfectly reasonable for a FH, he doesn't stand out as strong or weak there that I've noticed, but he does seem to be a little bit hidden by Quins - which is not unusual for a FH - and I absolutely reserve the right to be wrong, not having watched him there with any particular analysis on his defence.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Mallins of the bench

Malins is barley faster than a snail, so let's leave him in the changing room please.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Mallins of the bench

Okay but where is the logic part

 

[Geordie]

Never seen Smith as a weak tackler...hes just small. But he doesnt lack courage either.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I've always considered Smith to be a very strong tackler tbh (although this is in no way an endorsement of playing him at 15)

 

[Geordie]

Post World Cup there will likely be a few changes in personnel....it could at the extreme case be up to about 10-15 changes (though i cant see it being that high)

Im a big fan of Ford...i think hes a class act...but maybe it is time to give Smith the shirt...

And i dont want Farrell there...

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Borthwick won't change too many as he's too conservative. He's also going to be hard pressed to change too many after we get to a World Cup final

I also hope that we start using talented players rather than some of the ones we currently have.

 

[Scotty]

Does anyone know what Arundell has been signed as in France next season? Is he a wing or 15?

I think a seaspn over there will bring him on alot to the point he will genuinely be in the FB coversation.

Wonder what Smith thinks of being at FB? Obv happy to be playing/in the 23 but maybe fustrated its not in the capacity he wants?

Or maybe he enjoys it more who knows.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Does anyone know what Arundell has been signed as in France next season? Is he a wing or 15?

I think a seaspn over there will bring him on alot to the point he will genuinely be in the FB coversation.

Wonder what Smith thinks of being at FB? Obv happy to be playing/in the 23 but maybe fustrated its not in the capacity he wants?

Or maybe he enjoys it more who knows.

He's listed as a fullback on their site
Hard to say how much game time he'll get - he's one of three senior fullbacks, but the French season is long and they're not afraid to rotate especially on away days/around Europe time
Max Spring has been their first choice the last two seasons and is only 22, so will be a good bit of competition between the two hopefully

 

[Crash Hamster]

Max Spring has been excellent in the air...

I may be late to this joke.