South Africa vs British and Irish Lions - Test 2

[ChicagoKid]

One more thing that someone brought up online: Alun Wyn Jones never shuts up on the field. He was constantly chatting at the refs on Saturday and he is good at getting in their ears. Siya's personality is way more reserved and on Chasing the Sun, Rassie said Duane Vermeulen played the 'bad cop' to Siya's 'good cop'.

Looks like Rassie is more than willing to play the 'bad cop' with Vermeulen out. That's a pretty clever strategy because you don't want Siya doing something he isn't comfortable with.

 

[ncurd]

I expect this will be a non-issue by Saturday evening.

Oh it'll be an issue, based on several things.

1) There will be at least one big call he'll get wrong/right depending which sets of fans your on.
2) There will tons of more minor things.
3) The score line will likely be close.

Happens every rugby match.

 

[Deleted member 53362]

@Tallshort - If the guy is a professional ref, no I would not care.

@ncurd The touch judges have some power to flag incidents though. Overall, to me, I like how O'Keefe refs and speaks to players so I expect this will be a non-issue by Saturday evening.

But you could see how that would be controversial especially if Canada won on a 50/50 call?

 

[ncurd]

One more thing that someone brought up online: Alun Wyn Jones never shuts up on the field. He was constantly chatting at the refs on Saturday and he is good at getting in their ears. Siya's personality is way more reserved and on Chasing the Sun, Rassie said Duane Vermeulen played the 'bad cop' to Siya's 'good cop'.

Looks like Rassie is more than willing to play the 'bad cop' with Vermeulen out. That's a pretty clever strategy because you don't want Siya doing something he isn't comfortable with.

AWJ is a despite many things a great talker to the ref, reminds me of Johnson or McCaw. Its certainly an art you only have to look at how Farrell rubs them the wrong way.

 

[ChicagoKid]

But you could see how that would be controversial especially if Canada won on a 50/50 call?

We are human beings, we complain about everything. In the MLB, they are actively trying to remove the umpires and replace humans with AI software.

From watching the video, Rassie was clearly peeved about two things: 1.) The way Siya was treated compared to AWJ. 2.) The review process after the game.

 

[HenryChinaski]

If the Bokke win would this look any better though? From where I sit if the Bokke won and there were clear mistakes favoring us Rassie would look just as bad if not worse off. Even if it were a perfectly reffed game there would and probably should be an air of did Erasmus pressure the ref? It would look as if his little gambit payed dividends. If we lose, why would he "look like a broken man man clinging on"?

Sure but where are the lines and where were these comments from @BrianMoore666 last week? It should either be all or nothing that is allowed. There is too much room for interpretation otherwise.

Don't forget Eddie Jones. They're all guilty of throwing mud in the media.

I don't agree with the idea that it's all the same as last week. Let's remember the reason for this was there being a south African TMO, and I think it's totally fair that Gatland wants to have had a say on this. There is after all a reason why officials of same nationality don't officiate their national team. I say that as someone who overall dislikes the mind games which Gatland, Jones etc spew out. I think his comments were pretty fair, even if he knew that he was achieving extra with it.

And let's be clear by the way, it should be expected that a professional official who hears what Gatland said can think yeah that's fine, doesn't bother me as I back myself to make the right unbiased decisions. If he bottles it on this sort of level of quite basic initial mindgames, then that is ultimately on him, no?

So that brings it back to whether he 'bottled it' and went against his gut decision, or just made a poor decision ( in the Watson incident). It really could be either when you consider his record, including the recent Faff incident which didn't get the requisite sanction either.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I reckon (from the snippets I watched) he's only broken the last two. Definitely not the 1st pic or 1.5. It was presented as analysis rather than an attack, WR would want to be careful to brand it as abusive or not accepting the officiating.

 

[ChicagoKid]

AWJ is a despite many things a great talker to the ref, reminds me of Johnson or McCaw. Its certainly an art you only have to look at how Farrell rubs them the wrong way.

From an American standpoint, the whole chat around being good at managing the refs is extremely strange and not something we have here. Overall, it seems insanely overblown in the mind of fans.

But you are spot-on that certain players alienate refs and Farrell is example 1A of how to get refs against you.

 

[Deleted member 53362]

We are human beings, we complain about everything. In the MLB, they are actively trying to remove the umpires and replace humans with AI software.

From watching the video, Rassie was clearly peeved about two things: 1.) The way Siya was treated compared to AWJ. 2.) The review process after the game.

Thats the art of being a good captain!

 

[ChicagoKid]

Thats the art of being a good captain!

See my post above. The Rugby community seems to have this weird obsession with how Captains interact with Refs and I don't see it at all. I see the negatives like @ncurd said around Farrell.

People point out Warburton as someone with Jedi mind tricks to get refs on his side. I don't see it. Same with McCaw.

I think it's a myth that the Rugby community has canonized as an important attribute of being a Captain.

We have the same thing in America that was cemented with the release of Any Given Sunday. Pregame speeches are overrated. Having better players and tactics mean more than a big rah-rah speech before a game.

 

[unrated]

Or water bottles in them.

HIA for Rassie!

Kitson wrote a few days ago in the Guardian that Rassie had come across as a complete prat in this series. God knows what he’ll say tomorrow.

Don’t respond, Warren. Stay classy, Lions!

Gatland started the ref questioning. Im not saying that justifies Rassie. But Gatland was the first one to appear as unclassy.

I think if at the very least the video by Rassie helps influence the refs or brings balance to the Gatland influence last week then go for the three dimensional mind games. Also please everyone saying it was wrong appointing Jonker after firsly hearing why the call was made but also because o' keefe is a New Zealander like Gatland so the matter has no leg to stand on.

 

[ChicagoKid]

Gatland started the ref questioning. Im not saying that justifies Rassie. But Gatland was the first one to appear as unclassy.

I think if at the very least the video by Rassie helps influence the refs or brings balance to the Gatland influence last week then go for the three dimensional mind games. Also please everyone saying it was wrong appointing Jonker after firsly hearing why the call was made but also because o' keefe is a New Zealander like Gatland so the matter has no leg to stand on.

People still read The Guardian?

 

[ncurd]

You have to remember in rugby the ref only speaks to the captain, the captain is allowed to ask questions in the match (he won't reverse a decision but will get an explanantion) he can through these interactions point out things the opposition are doing. A good captain will point out what the other side is doing and sometimes he'll get a call later because the ref has spotted it this time. Its a really important skill for a captain to have.

 

[ncurd]

Gatland started the ref questioning. Im not saying that justifies Rassie. But Gatland was the first one to appear as unclassy.

I think if at the very least the video by Rassie helps influence the refs or brings balance to the Gatland influence last week then go for the three dimensional mind games. Also please everyone saying it was wrong appointing Jonker after firsly hearing why the call was made but also because o' keefe is a New Zealander like Gatland so the matter has no leg to stand on.

Cool in October when England plays you we'll have Wayne Barnes officiate he's widely regarded as one of the best refs out there and I'm sure you guys won't spontaneously combust at the thought.

 

[ChicagoKid]

You have to remember in rugby the ref only speaks to the captain, the captain is allowed to ask questions in the match (he won't reverse a decision but will get an explanantion) he can through these interactions point out things the opposition are doing. A good captain will point out what the other side is doing and sometimes he'll get a call later because the ref has spotted it this time. Its a really important skill for a captain to have.

I see refs talking to non-captains all the time. Aaron Smith and TJ Perenara seem to have 80-minute conversations with the refs every match. I understand the RULES state that only captains can speak with refs, but clearly doesn't happen.

 

[ChicagoKid]

Cool in October when England plays you we'll have Wayne Barnes officiate he'd widely regarded as one ofthe best ref out there and I'm sure you guys won't spontaneously combust at the thought.

I would personally love that. Barnes is a pros-pro. As you said, he is the best ref in the world so why not.

 

[ncurd]

I would personally love that. Barnes is a pros-pro. As you said, he is the best ref in the world so why not.

Honestly I have no issue with the idea of non-neutral referees in the professional game. I find the idea coaches, players and most fans would be fine with it laughable.

 

[HenryChinaski]

Gatland started the ref questioning. Im not saying that justifies Rassie. But Gatland was the first one to appear as unclassy.

I think if at the very least the video by Rassie helps influence the refs or brings balance to the Gatland influence last week then go for the three dimensional mind games. Also please everyone saying it was wrong appointing Jonker after firsly hearing why the call was made but also because o' keefe is a New Zealander like Gatland so the matter has no leg to stand on.

Well hold on, you say you're not saying it justifies Rassie, but then you say if it brings balance then go for the three dimensional mind games, which is saying the exact opposite.

I have to say that I'm not getting exactly what Gatland did that was so bad and it feels like a false equivalence. I didn't see you guys raging about Gatlands comments before the game? Also I'm looking back at the coverage from prior the first test and most reporting is "Gatland is understood to be furious at the tmo appointment".

Of course he was, there really should have been a contingency for this and they only found out the Wednesday before. Correct me if I'm wrong and there are particular other things he said - but from where I'm standing people are trying to make an equivalence before Gatlands absolutely entry level comments and some Waterboy making a weird as hell propaganda video.

To me, comparing the two is a really poor take. But that's just me and I don't need to say anymore on this.

 

[ChicagoKid]

Over/under 15 minutes before our first yellow card on Saturday. I'll go under.

 

[Dean Cooperfield-West]

The fans will never accept non-neutral refs. Take the Welsh. I don't think they've ever lost a match by not play well enough. They're always citing a dodgy call or an anti-Welsh ref

Heck, strip out the bad refereeing and they'll tell you they would have won every WC going

 

[Dean Cooperfield-West]

Over/under 15 minutes before our first yellow card on Saturday. I'll go under.

Well over. Late first half/early second half (30-45) at the earliest

 

[unrated]

Cool in October when England plays you we'll have Wayne Barnes officiate he's widely regarded as one of the best refs out there and I'm sure you guys won't spontaneously combust at the thought.

I am of the opinion that Wayne Barnes is the best ref in the world at the moment. Would sincerely be happy if he is appointed.

Just not Poite please

 

[ChicagoKid]

Rassie is trending on Twitter in the US! That's incredible.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

People still read The Guardian?

It’s free.

Cool in October when England plays you we'll have Wayne Barnes officiate he's widely regarded as one of the best refs out there and I'm sure you guys won't spontaneously combust at the thought.

Why did Barnes backtrack on his decision to retire after Japan?

 

[ncurd]

Why did Barnes backtrack on his decision to retire after Japan?

I don't think he ever announced he was retiring, made some comments people assumed meant he was.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Even handed opinion from Kinsella on the saga

 

[bargepole]

Rassie is trending on Twitter in the US! That's incredible.

Twitter is just a torrent of utter drivel, which is why it's the perfect medium for Rassie.

The only people who take any notice of the garbage posted on there, are under-30s who spend every waking moment glued to their smartphones, and Donald Trump supporters.

Opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got one.

 

[Jakedood]

I think personally I'd have no issue with non neutral refs as most level headed people wouldnt, especially given they're internal review and rankings post game

However as an accountant/auditor, they tell you you need to both be free from bias and have the appearance of being free from bias. This is for the exact reason that Jonker was in a no win situation. Decision goes Lions way = "he overcompensated", decision goes SA way = "he's biased".

Maybe its fair to say that rugby has one main ref watching the potential skullduggery of 30 people with two assistants and a TMO, but its so fast, things will get missed. That being said, the refs will have done their best to create a fair and free flowing game, and they'll do so again this week.

SA lost because they were crap in second half, and also distinctly poor at capitalising on their advantage in the first half. Thats it, the better side won.

The ref is always right, regardless of whether you agree, you're brought up with a culture of respecting the ref in rugby and to hear comments from Gatland re TMO and Erasmus who has taken that and gone way overboard, is just poor form and not the type of behaviour we want to see infiltrate this sport. Yes Watson in hindsight should have had a yellow, but even then SA were **** poor ball in hand so may have done sweet FA anyway with a man advantage
Really, what a sad miserable little life (Jane)

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

The ref is always right, regardless of whether you agree, you're brought up with a culture of respecting the ref in rugby and to hear comments from Gatland re TMO and Erasmus who has taken that and gone way overboard, is just poor form and not the type of behaviour we want to see infiltrate this sport. Yes Watson in hindsight should have had a yellow, but even then SA were **** poor ball in hand so may have done sweet FA anyway with a man advantage

Agree, but short of staying amateur in the pre social media age that was never going to happen.

At least everyone always behaved impeccably in the past upholding our game’s fine values of honesty, integrity and beating the Welsh….

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/1...dive-you-dont-make-excuses-for-wanting-to-win

 

[General Melchett]

If this happened during a RWC then WR would be up in arms.