• Help Support The Rugby Forum :

Spring Tour:New Zealand vs Ireland - 1st Test. (09/06/2012, 08:35 GMT)

Thought SBW was great by the way. Sucked in defenders and ran hard all day. Aaron smith was fantastic, could've given it to the backs a couple more times near the line but overall great performance. The game went into slow motion when fatty weepu came on.
 
Yea i thought SBW played well considering how much the Irish were marking him. One thing though is that he needs to stop looking for the offload every time, he got turned over a few times because of that.
 
SWB did have a good enough gamegame and as was mentioned above drew loads of players to him leaving plenty of space elsewhere, he certainly suffers from a love him or loath him following. For me he offers too much to be left out.
 
I remember i wrote on another website that he would get into pretty much every 1st XV in the world and i got rubbished for it.
 
Healy's certainly looks like a swinging elbow to the head which is obviously totally unexceptable. Hopefully he'll get cited for that and if it's found to be the case then his tour should be over. The tackle doesn't seem to go over horizontal but it lacks safety and arguably is not good sportsmanship. I would say that would have been worth a penalty and possibly yellow card but little more.
 
Oh you must be kidding, right? Ma'a' "battering ram" Nonu throw a wide pass? He hasn't managed to do that regularly for the Blues this season, even against weak opposition. What earth makes you think that would change in an AB jersey.

You must be one of the "hate SBW no matter what he does" brigade. He is the form 12 in New Zealand at the moment, with (Ryan Crotty second IMO). In the Chiefs v Blues clash last week, SBW totally and completely outplayed Nonu. He even stripped Nonu of the ball on his feet a couple of times.

I thought SBW played pretty well last night. Sure he made a couple of mistakes because if he is going to carry the ball in such a way that the offload is on, then there is always the risk that he might cough it up. The one-handed backhand inside pass to Carter that led to Savea's first try was an absolute peach, but it was an example of what he wouldn't be able to do so easily if he carried the ball with 100% security... its a case of risk and reward; the benefits of his silky ball skills outweigh the drawback of the occasional lapse.

Shag reckons his understanding of the game has improved beyond belief since he's been with the Chiefs, and its no coincidence that this is due to Wayne Smith's second year of being able to influence him and the way he thinks. SBW adjusted the way he was playing last night when he worked out that what he was doing wasn't having the desired effect.

No smartcooky, you must be kidding. Ma'a Nonu has evolved over the years and has become a great distributor, there were times where SBW took the ball up when Nonu would have passed. And if you think Nonu is only a battering ram, you might have to watch a replay of the game vs South Africa where he threw a beautiful pass to the outside to put Dagg in for the game winner.

And you are absolutely wrong to suggest I'm on the SBW sucks brigade, I'm actually one of the few holding his banner high for his campaign. But I do believe Nonu would have played better. People have said SBW was well contained because he drew in so many defenders,... Nonu draws in the same amount. Another thing Ma'a has in his favour is his combination with Conrad Smith which I still believe is the best centre pairing we have and that's nothing on Sonny Bill at all it's just the way they compliment each others play. I'm not saying Sonny Bill played bad at all, just that I truly believe Nonu would have provided more for his outsides.

You say he made mistakes with the excuse that the way he carries the ball there is a risk of him coughing it up...First of all, In All Black rugby, you don't do things that run high risks. And second, the particular handling error I was referring to was when he was just running with the ball, no contact was made with him at all and he just coughed it up bad.
 
Word is Keith Earls is out of second test and both Healy and Fitzpatrick have picked up knocks.
 
Word is Keith Earls is out of second test and both Healy and Fitzpatrick have picked up knocks.
No way to put this nicely, we're f**ed. Unless John Afoa, BJ Botha and Van Der Merwe suddenly and mysteriously become Irish qualified.
 
Just cheap by Healy in the end there. McCaw takes it from everyone because that's what happens when you're the best. Just see everytime Michael Jordan played taking hard fouls (thus needing an enforcer).

He's the best ever tow ear a 7 jersey, and has been the best in the modern era for some time now. Of course he'll get flack. Doesn't make it right though.



RE: SBW, I think he is OK in defence. He still is a walking brain fart half the time in most areas. He's the type of player you take a risk on in Super rugby level because of the potential rewards. But at ABs level, he is someone you play against a team like Scotland or Italy.

He still runs way too upright. And apart from Rugby League, in contact sprot you don't run upright. His positioning on defence was ok (thanks to Conrad), but hestill goes high-ish (not necessarily illegal mind, but poor technique) on the tackle. And his offload is predictable in tight play, and gets turned over quite a bit.

Like I said, doesn't have a good rugby IQ and isn't strictly a good footy player rather a solid athlete.

Dagg is testament to the fact that despite having poor SR form, and someone like SBW being the "form number 12" (where Stephen Donald has been a form 10 in super rugby for certain periods of time too mind you); that you can still play brilliant rugby at test level. Someone like Nonu should be that as well.

I don't hate on the guy.

But come on, people are really delusional if they think SBW is "the best". He's definitely usable, and I wouldn't put him in the Ali Williams or Piri Weepu category just yet.

But to be honest, people do get carried away with him and that's just fact. (sorry)
 
Dizzy, spot on . In my opinion Nonu is still best 12 in NZ... his partnership with Smith for the AB's in particulal more than when they were at the Canes together has been one of the best if not the best in world rugby in recent years.
You have fear for Ireland this weekend, because they looked for large parts of tne match unable to handle tne pace and tempo of the game.
 
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to admartian again.

Agreed 100 percent. I've been saying for some time now that Cory Jane had a bad SR last year and was phenominal for the ABs. Somehow people don't think the same can happen for guys like Nonu and Weepu
 
Well if Nonu is supposed to be the best 12 in NZ at this time, I have yet to see any evidence of it THIS season.

Every pundit I read says that SBW is the leading No. 12, but I guess they don't mean much. After all, they live & breath rugby, and do so for a living, so what would they know?

I also disagree with the comments that SBW is some sort of "brain fart" waiting to happen. That is at complete variance with what Steve Hansen, Wayne Smith, and Dave Rennie say about him. They say he is intelligent and reads the game well.

Admartian said:
his offload is predictable in tight play, and gets turned over quite a bit.

Last season, that might have been true; he was trying it every second or third time he was tackled. This season not so. If you follow what the Chiefs and AB coaches have been saying, they have trained him to choose those moments more carefully, and as a result, the number of offload attempts have gone down, and the success rate has gone up.

Dizzy said:
there were times where SBW took the ball up when Nonu would have passed.

Again, if you have been following what the coaches have said in their interviews, that is what he has been told to do. Ian Jones actually explained it well with his after match stats and graphics section on Saturday night. They started off by having SBW taking the ball to the line. This had the effect of drawing players to him like flies to a honey-pot, creating spaces in the outside. Once the opposition are encouraged to to do this, suddenly he lets go a wide pass after drawing defenders to him, creating an overlap. The first time he did that, it nearly created a try that was only bombed when Dagg made a break and let the pass to Guildford go fractionally early.
 
Well if Nonu is supposed to be the best 12 in NZ at this time, I have yet to see any evidence of it THIS season.

Every pundit I read says that SBW is the leading No. 12, but I guess they don't mean much. After all, they live & breath rugby, and do so for a living, so what would they know?

I also disagree with the comments that SBW is some sort of "brain fart" waiting to happen. That is at complete variance with what Steve Hansen, Wayne Smith, and Dave Rennie say about him. They say he is intelligent and reads the game well..

Dude don't get butthurt. I never said SBW wasn't the leading No.12 or rubbished what rugby enthusiasts have praised him for. I'm in SBW's corner with all that has happened this season. BUT, after saturdays game and my analysis on SBW, in a Black jersey, I believe Nonu is the better player and I guess that comes with experience.

And I'd like to think that us TRF-goers live and breathe rugby as well, so in your own words, "what would we know" right?.. Come on bro.


Again, if you have been following what the coaches have said in their interviews, that is what he has been told to do. Ian Jones actually explained it well with his after match stats and graphics section on Saturday night. They started off by having SBW taking the ball to the line. This had the effect of drawing players to him like flies to a honey-pot, creating spaces in the outside. Once the opposition are encouraged to to do this, suddenly he lets go a wide pass after drawing defenders to him, creating an overlap. The first time he did that, it nearly created a try that was only bombed when Dagg made a break and let the pass to Guildford go fractionally early.

I know this, and it works better with Nonu trust me. Nonu has shown over the years when he is hungry and the adrenaline is pumping he can duck out of tackles, spin out of tackles, monster through them, his trademark probing is a problem for defences on its own. Where SBW is great at running into defences and carrying defenders on his back not necessarily breaking right through them and into wide open spaces like Nonu has. I guess we'll see in the end who is preferred.
 
One thing I will say about McCaw, no one takes physical abuse in their stride as well as him. Cian Healy should be cited and miss the rest of the tour for punching McCaw.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1b4wHF_tqQ

Check out 3:12. Cian Healy just winds up a punch on McCaw while he's on the ground (not unlike Heaslips knee drives to McCaw's head last time). I'd think he should miss the rest of the tour to be honest. McCaw is amazing he just takes it and doesn't cost his team. If Brad Thorn was still around for the All Blacks, Healey would be sipping through a straw for the remainder of the tour. Sadly we don't really have an enforcer anymore.


That showed Healy swinging his arm. Maybe McCaw had a jersey held and Healy was trying to get his hand off it?? Its not uncommon to see.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You have fear for Ireland this weekend, because they looked for large parts of tne match unable to handle tne pace and tempo of the game.
It's not all that surprising though. Even if Ireland had a full strength side, they'd be up against it. New Zealand would still be the better team by 15ish points. Without Ross, O'Connell, Ferris, Bowe and Fitzgerald, all of whom would have started, and Reddan who should have started, Ireland had very little chance of keeping the scoreline respectable. Factor in an out of touch coaching team and it makes matters worse.

For the rest of the tour, if a couple of new players can push their names forward for selection in full strength teams, that's the best Ireland can hope for.
 
Well if Nonu is supposed to be the best 12 in NZ at this time, I have yet to see any evidence of it THIS season.

Every pundit I read says that SBW is the leading No. 12, but I guess they don't mean much. After all, they live & breath rugby, and do so for a living, so what would they know?

I also disagree with the comments that SBW is some sort of "brain fart" waiting to happen. That is at complete variance with what Steve Hansen, Wayne Smith, and Dave Rennie say about him. They say he is intelligent and reads the game well.

Last season, that might have been true; he was trying it every second or third time he was tackled. This season not so. If you follow what the Chiefs and AB coaches have been saying, they have trained him to choose those moments more carefully, and as a result, the number of offload attempts have gone down, and the success rate has gone up.

Again, if you have been following what the coaches have said in their interviews, that is what he has been told to do. Ian Jones actually explained it well with his after match stats and graphics section on Saturday night. They started off by having SBW taking the ball to the line. This had the effect of drawing players to him like flies to a honey-pot, creating spaces in the outside. Once the opposition are encouraged to to do this, suddenly he lets go a wide pass after drawing defenders to him, creating an overlap. The first time he did that, it nearly created a try that was only bombed when Dagg made a break and let the pass to Guildford go fractionally early.

To be fair, those same rugby 'experts' also had Ma'a Nonu on the list for IRB Player of the Year in 2011. Not bad for just a battering ram, unless he's suddenly become a bad player over night. Plenty of pundits I disagree with totally and think they're fools like Earle "SBW is new Lomu" Kirton. It's all pretty subjective really. Personally I think Sonny Bill Williams had a mixed game. He hit the line much harder which is what I wanted to see rather than him jogging to it and looking for the offload before getting past the advantage line, but his handling was poor (as was Richie McCaw's to be fair).
 
To be fair, those same rugby 'experts' also had Ma'a Nonu on the list for IRB Player of the Year in 2011. Not bad for just a battering ram, unless he's suddenly become a bad player over night. Plenty of pundits I disagree with totally and think they're fools like Earle "SBW is new Lomu" Kirton. It's all pretty subjective really. Personally I think Sonny Bill Williams had a mixed game. He hit the line much harder which is what I wanted to see rather than him jogging to it and looking for the offload before getting past the advantage line, but his handling was poor (as was Richie McCaw's to be fair).

To be honest SBW just didn't offer anything further that what Nonu would have. He has potential but without the offload his general game isn't as good as Nonu's. I'm not saying he was bad but he seemed to just be underwhelming. I think his offloading game struggled against the tackling tactic of Ireland who like to hit and hold people upright.
 
Combine that with his cheap shot on McCaw he should be on the sideline for the rest of the tour. Cheap shot artist who is a sore loser obviously.

Yeah because obviously after this you can tell all this after one game you really know him. It's not as if pretty much every rugby player has thrown a punch at some time including plenty of players on both teams or it couldn't be that McCaw was holding his jersey (not insulting him it's what any good 7 would do).

Also McCaw isn't alone in accepting lots of punishment most opensides get it and plenty of others do to. It's admirable the way he can take but it's admirable in all the others.
 
Thought SBW was great by the way. Sucked in defenders and ran hard all day. Aaron smith was fantastic, could've given it to the backs a couple more times near the line but overall great performance. The game went into slow motion when fatty weepu came on.

Both Weepu and Ali Williams have no business on this team. I can appreciate loyalty in a coach but this is crazy, there are so many other players in NZ more deserving of an All black call up that seeing these two in the lineup must be really discouraging for young up and coming players. They often talk about the "player drain" in NZ, players taking off for more lucrative overseas contracts while still in their prime. Well this kind of thing has got to be a contributing factor, when players are selected on reputation and past achievements while others sit in the stands who are clearly in form it doesn't take to much enticement to lure them to the UK or France.
 
Last edited:
Agree entirely with points 1,2,3,4,6,8, and 10 (though didn't think Ali Williams was really that bad when he came on). I think it is too early to make a judgement on McCaw yet, as he is getting back to his best (though do agree we need to blood someone soon!). The only point I disagree with is point 7 (no surprised there!). What exactly did Guildford do so wrong in this game? He didn't get the opportunities that Savea got, but worked hard, defended well, and didn't make any errors (that I can recall). He certainly didn't have a storming game like Savea, but he was very solid, and I'm sure will get more chances in the next match if continues to work hard. I'm also not sure what Ben Smith did this match to suggest he lacked pace? He ran the ball twice - on his first run he made it well past the advantage line, and on his second he went past two defenders and made a great offload to put Carter into the gap. I can't remember a single time in the game he was found wanting for pace ?!?!?!

I was going to comment as well but I think you got it spot on.

Ali Williams did noting wrong, absolutely nothing to give his haters any more ammo, He was solid. Guildford and Ben Smith were both fine, that last play of the game that was almost a try setup by smith was pretty impressive. And he sure is fast enough, no he's not Fijian fast but he's at the next level and he can change direction better than most.

Overall on the game the Irish did ok but really failed to convert the good things they did into points which is credit to the AB's defense but after a period in the game where the Irish had most of the play it was a surprise to see the AB's ahead on the scoreboard. I think the other problem the Irish had was that they were obviously targeting Savea with kicks and their running game was down that side a lot too but it simply was not good enough. If they wanted to put Savea under real pressure they needed kicks to him with 2-3 chasers arriving at the same time - the kicks he took were under very little pressure. Then Savea nailed someone in a tackle and they had run out of options.

For the AB's
All the new guys had good showings. Retalick got through all his grunt work really well, Savea obviously lit up the Scoreboard but I really though Smith was really impressive

Dagg and Carter had very good games though Dagg blew a try at the end of the first half and carter gave a try with a silly kick that was not needed. Mistakes that you would put down to first game of the season but you don't want them happening in the rugby Championship.

Weepu was very average when he came on, backline lost the clear advantage they had.

SBW was used really well, a lot early then later on he was used more as a decoy and gaps were found out wide. Conrad was good as he always is over the last few years. The pack overall was pretty solid, whitelock was really good, Retalick and Ali were good also. Scrum was impressive, I also thought Hika Elliot did a good job when he came on, I think it would be a shame to take him out if mealamu comes back, I think he's a better thrower than Hore or Mealamu anyway.

The other talking point was 6 obviously with the search for a replacement to Kaino. Vito obviously went into the game with the plan to bring the kind of physicality that Kaino had and in that respect for the most part I think he failed. He made tackles and took some ball forward but there was no real physical edge to it, no real crash and bash. He may get another chance but he's also picked up a ****le from the game. I'm not sure what the options are here for Hansen. Vito should get another shot but if he doesn't improve? Thompson is not the Physical player to replace Kaino. IMO I think the next option would be Liam Messam then Brad Shields. The other option is to Move McCaw to 6 and bring in Cane or Todd at 7. Then you still have the presence of McCaw and you have the speed of a youngster in the mix.

Surely moving McCaw to 6 is going to happen at some point? He's doing ok there now but if he's going to stick around to the next world cup it would be best to move him now because he's surely going to be better at 6 come 2014-2015. just comes down to when I think... And with Kaino gone now is a good time and it solves two problems...
 
Top