Spring Tour:New Zealand vs Ireland - 1st Test. (09/06/2012, 08:35 GMT)

[lucky number 7]

Kiwi's dislike him for many reasons probably the number one is that he is over-hyped and untrustworthy.

As far as playing for the Crusaders or the Chiefs yeah I agree he is in his element but at test level he is not, this constant rain of dribble about his passing skills and ability to draw defenders is astounding and rather like patting your accountant on the back for being able to add and subtract, it is his job to draw defenders and pass the ball and believe it or not just about every number 12 in the country can do it.

Didn't he also give away our first points?

As I have explained to friends I would most likely have him in a New Zealand A squad to play Japan, Canada or the USA but I would not consider him against teams such as Australia or South Africa.

And he does it better , Just about every rugby player in the world can tackle , run and pass however it's the people who are the best at this who find themselves at the top teir of the sport..just as he has.

SBW is a bit of a cock but there is no denying he is brilliant.

 

[donmcdazzle]

Kiwi's dislike him for many reasons probably the number one is that he is over-hyped and untrustworthy.

As far as playing for the Crusaders or the Chiefs yeah I agree he is in his element but at test level he is not, this constant rain of dribble about his passing skills and ability to draw defenders is astounding and rather like patting your accountant on the back for being able to add and subtract, it is his job to draw defenders and pass the ball and believe it or not just about every number 12 in the country can do it.

Didn't he also give away our first points?

As I have explained to friends I would most likely have him in a New Zealand A squad to play Japan, Canada or the USA but I would not consider him against teams such as Australia or South Africa.

If you think Ryan Crotty or Tim Bateman could have carted the ball up as effectively as SBW did on the weekend then you're watching a different game than me. He had to run into 2-3 defenders every time. Got held up once but the other times made the advantage line or more. Ignore the hype and all that and just look at performance, you're letting your dislike of his image and persona get in the way of your objectivity.

 

[Zapphod]

If you think Ryan Crotty or Tim Bateman could have carted the ball up as effectively as SBW did on the weekend then you're watching a different game than me. He had to run into 2-3 defenders every time. Got held up once but the other times made the advantage line or more. Ignore the hype and all that and just look at performance, you're letting your dislike of his image and persona get in the way of your objectivity.

I don't entirely agree, I admit I dislike the guy but I do not agree that he has shown anything more than mediocrity now you may be right he "might" be the equivalent of the 2nd coming with 3-4 years of experience under his belt but both you and I know that it is unlikely at best he will be in New Zealand in 3-4 years and as such has no place being selected for the All Blacks.

If tomorrow he made himself available for selection through to the the next world cup I would be in favour of keeping him as he can only get better but until then we should be selecting someone that has a good chance of making the next game rather than someone that will jump ship for an extra $50 a week and his face on a packet of wheaties.

 

[donmcdazzle]

I don't entirely agree, I admit I dislike the guy but I do not agree that he has shown anything more than mediocrity now you may be right he "might" be the equivalent of the 2nd coming with 3-4 years of experience under his belt but both you and I know that it is unlikely at best he will be in New Zealand in 3-4 years and as such has no place being selected for the All Blacks.

If tomorrow he made himself available for selection through to the the next world cup I would be in favour of keeping him as he can only get better but until then we should be selecting someone that has a good chance of making the next game rather than someone that will jump ship for an extra $50 a week and his face on a packet of wheaties.

How do you know how many of the current team will be available for the next world cup? That is some of the most flawed logic I've ever seen. Trying to guess which players are likely to hang around for the next 4 years and then basing your selections on that sort of guessing is pretty silly.

Who would you pick ahead of him at 2nd five (other than Nonu who is already there)? The next guys are Crotty, Bateman, Treeby? I guess you could throw Fruean into the mix even though he is a centre. None of those guys have been anywhere near as good as SBW is super 15 so what is it that makes you think they'd be any better at international footy than the 'mediorcre' SBW? I'm not even a particular fan of the guy by the way, I just don't like people basing their assessment of a performance on whether they like him or not.

 

[Larksea]

the whole commitment to NZ thing is totally overblown. Sure we're not sure what he's doing next year but he's not the only one with future up in the air and most top players have a clause in their contracts that allows them to get out if they are not selected for the AB's so how can you really judge their level of commitment? Plus most players don't have the options he does, he would get offers from every rugby and league club in the world that can afford him so it's no surprise his contract negotiations are short term and complicated. He has about a 15 years at the top level and he wants to get a lot out of it and try different things, more power to him.

 

[Darwin]

How do you know how many of the current team will be available for the next world cup? That is some of the most flawed logic I've ever seen. Trying to guess which players are likely to hang around for the next 4 years and then basing your selections on that sort of guessing is pretty silly.

Who would you pick ahead of him at 2nd five (other than Nonu who is already there)? The next guys are Crotty, Bateman, Treeby? I guess you could throw Fruean into the mix even though he is a centre. None of those guys have been anywhere near as good as SBW is super 15 so what is it that makes you think they'd be any better at international footy than the 'mediorcre' SBW? I'm not even a particular fan of the guy by the way, I just don't like people basing their assessment of a performance on whether they like him or not.

I'm in exactly the same boat - I'm certainly not his biggest fan, but I've always believed in judging players on their performances, rather than whether or not you like their attitude/try-scoring celebrations/haircut etc. SBW has shown some dramatic improvements over the last year our so, and certainly deserves to by the AB's starting 12, as he has undoubtedly been the form 12 in the entire Super Rugby competition this year....

 

[Draggs]

If SBW had his head on straight, he would be immense. He offers the powerful crashing second five role that Nonu does, but seems to have a much more creative mind, and greater skillset.
Get him to put pen to paper for a three year deal, and then take a look. Crotty doesn't seem to be a bad player, just ban him from having facial hair.

 

[Zapphod]

How do you know how many of the current team will be available for the next world cup? That is some of the most flawed logic I've ever seen. Trying to guess which players are likely to hang around for the next 4 years and then basing your selections on that sort of guessing is pretty silly.

Who would you pick ahead of him at 2nd five (other than Nonu who is already there)? The next guys are Crotty, Bateman, Treeby? I guess you could throw Fruean into the mix even though he is a centre. None of those guys have been anywhere near as good as SBW is super 15 so what is it that makes you think they'd be any better at international footy than the 'mediorcre' SBW? I'm not even a particular fan of the guy by the way, I just don't like people basing their assessment of a performance on whether they like him or not.

I am loathe to tell you who I would try in place of him as the person I am thinking of is not currently a 12.

I'm in exactly the same boat - I'm certainly not his biggest fan, but I've always believed in judging players on their performances, rather than whether or not you like their attitude/try-scoring celebrations/haircut etc. SBW has shown some dramatic improvements over the last year our so, and certainly deserves to by the AB's starting 12, as he has undoubtedly been the form 12 in the entire Super Rugby competition this year....

Oh ********, this judging SBW on his performance routine sounds noble but it over looks the simple reality that he hasn't performed the only decent performance he has put in for the All Blacks was against Japan.

Still it is clear that we will not reach an agreement on this matter as we both share different opinions as to what "performing" is, I guess time will tell on this one.

 

[Darwin]

I am loathe to tell you who I would try in place of him as the person I am thinking of is not currently a 12.



Oh ********, this judging SBW on his performance routine sounds noble but it over looks the simple reality that he hasn't performed the only decent performance he has put in for the All Blacks was against Japan.

Still it is clear that we will not reach an agreement on this matter as we both share different opinions as to what "performing" is, I guess time will tell on this one.

I have already listed a number of standout performances SBW has had at international level (I didn't even include Japan, but we can include them too if you want....), but you seem to have ignored these completely . If you don't think he has 'performed' up to international standard in these games, explain why (and perhaps back this up with a few facts.....) rather than simply ignoring what I've written and parroting "SBW have never performed at international level"! I'm far from the only person who thinks he has 'performed' at international level - indeed half a dozen people on this thread seem to agree with me, but you are the only person in this thread with the completely contrary opinion! Again, I'm not in any way suggesting he has been a superstar at international level, but rather he has looked very comfortable thus far (with several standout games), and more than deserves to be starting at 12 for the AB's again this weekend.

 

[donmcdazzle]

I am loathe to tell you who I would try in place of him as the person I am thinking of is not currently a 12.

Oh ********, this judging SBW on his performance routine sounds noble but it over looks the simple reality that he hasn't performed the only decent performance he has put in for the All Blacks was against Japan.

Still it is clear that we will not reach an agreement on this matter as we both share different opinions as to what "performing" is, I guess time will tell on this one.

Well go on then, give us who you think could turn in a better than 'mediocre' performance for the ABs at 12? May as well tell us why this person is better suited too.

 

[Zapphod]

I have already listed a number of standout performances SBW has had at international level (I didn't even include Japan, but we can include them too if you want....), but you seem to have ignored these completely . If you don't think he has 'performed' up to international standard in these games, explain why (and perhaps back this up with a few facts.....) rather than simply ignoring what I've written and parroting "SBW have never performed at international level"! I'm far from the only person who thinks he has 'performed' at international level - indeed half a dozen people on this thread seem to agree with me, but you are the only person in this thread with the completely contrary opinion!

And I have pointed out that we clearly have different opinions as to what performing is but you did not see fit to bold that, I am unsure as to why you want to elevate this to an argument but I would prefer it not become one so how about we leave it at:
You think he is great but don't want to appear a fanboi and I think he is only fractionally better than a turnip and should not be there.

Well go on then, give us who you think could turn in a better than 'mediocre' performance for the ABs at 12? May as well tell us why this person is better suited too.

The person I think would suit the role is Andre Taylor, I will try and put together reasons why a bit later as I going home is of greater interest to me right now but I would have kept Nonu there and started using Taylor in an understudy role in the short term because I do not believe that Nonu's performances for the Blues really count for a lot as that is an awfully disfunctional team this year.

As for SBW he can pack up his PR team and bugger off to netball, tennis, tiddlywinks or where ever else Nasser thinks he can extract his money from.

 

[Larksea]

that game he was man of the match against Scotland doesn't count? SBW hasn't done much wrong so far in test Rugby IMO, and heck he was very impressive against Ireland. He really grouped their defense and BOD in particular in mid field early in the game and gaps appeared out wide. Some nice touches and his defense is pretty much spot on.

 

[Darwin]

that game he was man of the match against Scotland doesn't count? SBW hasn't done much wrong so far in test Rugby IMO, and heck he was very impressive against Ireland. He really grouped their defense and BOD in particular in mid field early in the game and gaps appeared out wide. Some nice touches and his defense is pretty much spot on.

I wouldn't bother Larksea - Zapphod has a different opinon of what 'performing' is than the rest of us, and no amount of evidence will change his mind. If you don't agree with him, you are a 'fanboi'

The person I think would suit the role is Andre Taylor, I will try and put together reasons why a bit later as I going home is of greater interest to me right now but I would have kept Nonu there and started using Taylor in an understudy role in the short term because I do not believe that Nonu's performances for the Blues really count for a lot as that is an awfully disfunctional team this year.

As for SBW he can pack up his PR team and bugger off to netball, tennis, tiddlywinks or where ever else Nasser thinks he can extract his money from.

Ah, I finally get it - you are trolling. Well played young chap, well played!

 

[admartian]

If we were to ask who we would put at 12, then Nonu would, and has done much much better (see Dagg, Jane and Nonu again in the past, and Weepu also previously for examples as to do doing poorly at Super Rugby but better at AB level). Granted Nonu has experience and commitment (despite being shunned and dropped by selectors multiple times for years!) on his side.

Could you imagine SBW staying put if the roles were reversed? You are lying to yourself if you think he would...

He has a hard time committing as it is when the NZRA is clamouring over him,- imagine what he does in the instance that he isn't even included or *gasp* takked about by the media (will never happen) !!?!?

(Which I'm pretty sure almost happened pre-RWC. Then he kicked a fuss; and publicly pondered his future, and then he got picked, then suddenly he decides to stay for one more year. Almost as bad as Lebron, minus the skill...)

Honestly, I don't think I'm stating anything that is unfair. I don't see why people need to get tied up all over it...

To be fair to him, maybe he just needs to get rid of himself of the people around him, and look for the right people rather than agents/managers that care about publicity. But who knows, he might be as a big a douche as everyone makes him out to be...





As I said before, I think Ellison is at least equivalent to SBW. Plus he doesn't have Cruden and Kahui on either side of him to make him look good.

 

[Darwin]

If we were to ask who we would put at 12, then Nonu would, and has done much much better (see Dagg, Jane and Nonu again in the past, and Weepu also previously for examples as to do doing poorly at Super Rugby but better at AB level). Granted Nonu has experience and commitment (despite being shunned and dropped by selectors multiple times for years!) on his side.

Could you imagine SBW staying put if the roles were reversed? You are lying to yourself if you think he would...

He has a hard time committing as it is when the NZRA is clamouring over him,- imagine what he does in the instance that he isn't even included or *gasp* takked about by the media (will never happen) !!?!?

(Which I'm pretty sure almost happened pre-RWC. Then he kicked a fuss; and publicly pondered his future, and then he got picked, then suddenly he decides to stay for one more year. Almost as bad as Lebron, minus the skill...)

Honestly, I don't think I'm stating anything that is unfair. I don't see why people need to get tied up all over it...

To be fair to him, maybe he just needs to get rid of himself of the people around him, and look for the right people rather than agents/managers that care about publicity. But who knows, he might be as a big a douche as everyone makes him out to be...

As I said before, I think Ellison is at least equivalent to SBW. Plus he doesn't have Cruden and Kahui on either side of him to make him look good.

I don't think there is any doubt that Nonu has been the best 12 in the country (and probably the world) over the last 4 or so years, but SBW has performed better this season, and Nonu really needs a break. If both were in top form I would still favour Nonu over SBW, but SBW is certainly improving.

As for Ellison being the equivalent of SBW - I can't agree with that. I have been really impressed with Ellison this season (after never really rating him previously) and he thoroughly deserves his AB's call-up. However I really don't think he is the same league as SBW. His defense is good (but probably not as good at SBWs), and he certainly isn't as effective at the breakdown. He is a threat on attack with ball in hand, but his distribution has been pretty poor at times: I remember numerous occasions this season when he has chosen to go himself rather than pass to an unmarked man outside. Though he can play 12, I think Ellison is much better suited to 13 (I'd rate him at least equal, if not better than SBW at 13) - if Conrad Smith was out injured now I would definitely look to play Ellison at 13 rather than go for a SBW/Nonu midfield....

 

[donmcdazzle]

The person I think would suit the role is Andre Taylor, I will try and put together reasons why a bit later as I going home is of greater interest to me right now but I would have kept Nonu there and started using Taylor in an understudy role in the short term because I do not believe that Nonu's performances for the Blues really count for a lot as that is an awfully disfunctional team this year.

Taylor did play a bit of centre at Palmy Boys high for the 1stXV I think (in the same backline as Hadleigh Parkes, Aaron Cruden and Kurt Baker by the way), and I know he played 10 in like 4th form but I don't remember him playing too much 12.. I'm very interested to see your thoughts/reasoning behind that idea. Maybe he has played club rugby or something there that you've seen.

 

[james5000]

If we were to ask who we would put at 12, then Nonu would, and has done much much better (see Dagg, Jane and Nonu again in the past, and Weepu also previously for examples as to do doing poorly at Super Rugby but better at AB level). Granted Nonu has experience and commitment (despite being shunned and dropped by selectors multiple times for years!) on his side.

Could you imagine SBW staying put if the roles were reversed? You are lying to yourself if you think he would...

He has a hard time committing as it is when the NZRA is clamouring over him,- imagine what he does in the instance that he isn't even included or *gasp* takked about by the media (will never happen) !!?!?

(Which I'm pretty sure almost happened pre-RWC. Then he kicked a fuss; and publicly pondered his future, and then he got picked, then suddenly he decides to stay for one more year. Almost as bad as Lebron, minus the skill...)

Honestly, I don't think I'm stating anything that is unfair. I don't see why people need to get tied up all over it...

To be fair to him, maybe he just needs to get rid of himself of the people around him, and look for the right people rather than agents/managers that care about publicity. But who knows, he might be as a big a douche as everyone makes him out to be...





As I said before, I think Ellison is at least equivalent to SBW. Plus he doesn't have Cruden and Kahui on either side of him to make him look good.

Your Dreaming and your a hater

 

[Zapphod]

If we were to ask who we would put at 12, then Nonu would, and has done much much better (see Dagg, Jane and Nonu again in the past, and Weepu also previously for examples as to do doing poorly at Super Rugby but better at AB level). Granted Nonu has experience and commitment (despite being shunned and dropped by selectors multiple times for years!) on his side.

Could you imagine SBW staying put if the roles were reversed? You are lying to yourself if you think he would...

He has a hard time committing as it is when the NZRA is clamouring over him,- imagine what he does in the instance that he isn't even included or *gasp* takked about by the media (will never happen) !!?!?

(Which I'm pretty sure almost happened pre-RWC. Then he kicked a fuss; and publicly pondered his future, and then he got picked, then suddenly he decides to stay for one more year. Almost as bad as Lebron, minus the skill...)

Honestly, I don't think I'm stating anything that is unfair. I don't see why people need to get tied up all over it...

To be fair to him, maybe he just needs to get rid of himself of the people around him, and look for the right people rather than agents/managers that care about publicity. But who knows, he might be as a big a douche as everyone makes him out to be...





As I said before, I think Ellison is at least equivalent to SBW. Plus he doesn't have Cruden and Kahui on either side of him to make him look good.

I agree completely although I think Ellison is to old at this point to be introduced into what is a team building for the next world cup.

 

[admartian]

I don't think there is any doubt that Nonu has been the best 12 in the country (and probably the world) over the last 4 or so years, but SBW has performed better this season, and Nonu really needs a break. If both were in top form I would still favour Nonu over SBW, but SBW is certainly improving.

As for Ellison being the equivalent of SBW - I can't agree with that. I have been really impressed with Ellison this season (after never really rating him previously) and he thoroughly deserves his AB's call-up. However I really don't think he is the same league as SBW. His defense is good (but probably not as good at SBWs), and he certainly isn't as effective at the breakdown. He is a threat on attack with ball in hand, but his distribution has been pretty poor at times: I remember numerous occasions this season when he has chosen to go himself rather than pass to an unmarked man outside. Though he can play 12, I think Ellison is much better suited to 13 (I'd rate him at least equal, if not better than SBW at 13) - if Conrad Smith was out injured now I would definitely look to play Ellison at 13 rather than go for a SBW/Nonu midfield....

You might be right. Though I just think their skills (minus offloads) are comparable. Ellison is a real strong runner, and more so in defence.

I have tp disagree with SBW on the breakdown, I actually think that's one of his weaker attributes. He tends to lose ball or at least jeopardise it when he carries. He is ok, but certainly no Conrad Smith (probably one of the best backs at this) at the breakdown.

Your Dreaming and your a hater

:lol: Typical! :lol:


Brilliant btw.

I agree completely although I think Ellison is to old at this point to be introduced into what is a team building for the next world cup.

That's true too.

I was merely trying to provide alternatives. I like Bateman, but I don't see him more than solid cover. Not sold on Crotty, I see him in the mold of Tom Taylor - will probably be solid for the ABs, but nothing special - lol the anti SOnny Bill).

I think Ben Smith would actually be better there if they've developed him early on from that position.

 

[Darwin]

You might be right. Though I just think their skills (minus offloads) are comparable. Ellison is a real strong runner, and more so in defence.

I have tp disagree with SBW on the breakdown, I actually think that's one of his weaker attributes. He tends to lose ball or at least jeopardise it when he carries. He is ok, but certainly no Conrad Smith (probably one of the best backs at this) at the breakdown.

I think SBW's work at the breakdown is very under-rated. He is certainly not as good as someone like Conrad Smith on defensive breakdowns - on occasion he does drive through well and create the potential for turn-overs, but he doesn't have the 'natural rugby instinct' (e.g. the ability to chose when to compete and when not to) that is required to be great in this area (though he is improving). His work on attacking breakdowns is outstanding though in my opinion - as good as any back in world rugby. He hits breakdowns low and hard , which helps provide quick ball for the team - he is like having another forward on attacking breakdowns.