Test Match 2: All Blacks v British & Irish Lions (Wellington)

[Penne Rara]

The Lineout was a major issue. We did an ok job some lineouts and preventing the mauls but our own ball was disrupted in the air and we lost key lineouts. That last 10 min when the lions were under a warning and we had a lineout near there line, had them under huge pressure, lost 2 lineouts in a row and not long after found ourselves on defense and finally gave away the constellation try. We clearly have a lot of ground to make up in the lineouts.

losing bender and Crotty does disrupt things a lot. bender is such a critical player, hasn't had much rugby recently and would have been set to build into this series and I think he started well. Dmac being called in probably suggests he will miss the last two tests. Crotty is staying with the squad which suggests he may make it back for the final game but that will be a stretch.

I think we (NZ supporters) have to credit Itoje for the great job he did at the end of the match. He's 200% a starter as far as I'm concerned and, what's more, was hungry as hell to come on the field and play. He helped the Lions gain nice and clean ball, and was clinical during lineouts.

 

[Jakedood]

I think we (NZ supporters) have to credit Itoje for the great job he did at the end of the match. He's 200% a starter as far as I'm concerned and, what's more, was hungry as hell to come on the field and play. He helped the Lions gain nice and clean ball, and was clinical during lineouts.

Couldn't agree more.. the raw passion you could see from him on the sidelines, thats what we love to see in our Lions, it got me pumped up on the sofa, and he was all over the pitch when he came on... you actually started to notice, in fairness when Warburton came on too, that the All Blacks did stop getting quite such quick ball from the rucks, whether fatigue or not I don't know, but in the first half, it was seamless, barely even letting the ruck form, whereas there was an extra half second or second when those 2 were on the pitch.

Either way, the stomach and fight in the forwards was drained from us, and Itoje, while I can understand the idea he may have been too hyped up to start, and been a risk in that sense, has shown actually his emotions are controlled and harnessed positively, and that kind of energy and abandonment can only inspire those around you

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Assuming Gats won't deviate too much from his losing game plan I'd try and get the most out of it with

McGarth Best Furlong
Kruis Itoje
POM Faletau SOB
Murray Sexton
Te'o JJ
Williams Daly Watson

Mako George Sink Lawes CJ Webb Farrell Nowell

Harsh on a few players, very Anglo-Irish but you might as well pick from the 2nd and 3rd best teams in the sport if you can. It's set up to attack the breakdown with Best, has three class lineout jumpers meaning he won't struggle. Crash ball can continue but you now have a centre with the ability to pass and with the exception of Te'o it's the best players (a couple positions such as hooker and loose head have equal options) on the pitch for their position while swapping Daly and Willis because Williams is the better wing while imo there's little difference at 15. .

With the exception of his game plan my biggest Garland criticism so far is his management of his centres, he's played his best 12 and 13 in Henshaw and JJ completely out of form by lumping them in tough midweek matches with Bigger and Laidlaw and not giving them chances with good halfbacks.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

TBH i think Davies is the best 13 on tour, his scarlets form and this lions tour (Bar a couple of things) has been the best of the 13's.

Faz to me has to be benched he was shocking IMO. Murray and Sexton at least will know each other.

 

[valley commando]

Don't rule out 1/2P starting either with Williams being moved to the wing in place of Daly.

I would keep Williams at 15 and put 1/2p on the wing instead of Daly, have an Irish 9/10 with Webb and Biggar on the bench, I may have been dismissive of Farrell in the past but his performance Saturday doesn't warrant him being in the 23 for test 2.
Id have Lawes and Itojoe start with Henderson on the bench, George would also be on the bench not sure who would start at 2 until seeing Best tomorrow, if he goes well I would start an all Irish front row, with an all England 2nd row, and all Welsh back row.
I would also consider (dependent on tomorrow) North as a centre in place of Teo with Teo on the bench

 

[Jakedood]

I would keep Williams at 15 and put 1/2p on the wing instead of Daly, have an Irish 9/10 with Webb and Biggar on the bench, I may have been dismissive of Farrell in the past but his performance Saturday doesn't warrant him being in the 23 for test 2.
Id have Lawes and Itojoe start with Henderson on the bench, George would also be on the bench not sure who would start at 2 until seeing Best tomorrow, if he goes well I would start an all Irish front row, with an all England 2nd row, and all Welsh back row.
I would also consider (dependent on tomorrow) North as a centre in place of Teo with Teo on the bench

So.. your team would be
Mcgrath, Best, Furlong
Lawes Itoje
Warburton (In poor form), Tipuric, Faletau

Murray, Sexton
North, Davies? North at 12, sorry Just dont see any damn logic there
Halfpenny, Williams, Watson?

No offense valley, but I'd freak if Gats went for this team

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

TBH i think Davies is the best 13 on tour, his scarlets form and this lions tour (Bar a couple of things) has been the best of the 13's.

Faz to me has to be benched he was shocking IMO. Murray and Sexton at least will know each other.

I've kind of thrown form out the window because there's no one in horrendous form if we're being honest and JJ for me is a flat out better player than Davies (Ringrose too).

If you look at the last four years and the competition between Ireland, England and Wales and the records v NZ it's pretty clear that Wales have too much involvement in this tour;
6n
Ireland: 1st, 1st, 3rd, 2nd
England: 2nd, 2nd, GS, 1st
Wales: 3rd, 3rd, 2nd, 5th

vs NZ
Ireland: 1-0-2, agg 71-74 (NZ win by 1.5 on average)
England: 0-0-5, agg 98-138 (NZ win by 8 on average)
Wales: 0-0-4, 65-128 (NZ win by 15.75 on average)

There's a clear third place here that is having as much influence on tour as 1st and 2nd, why continue with tried, tested and failed systems and personnel when you don't have too?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Rory Best starting for the lions

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Bar that lineout, which was Itoje's fault imo, what has Best done wrong? He certainly does more at the breakdown than the other hookers and his scrum is probably the best. Not many highlight plays but then again, he's a hooker!

 

[Jakedood]

Rory Best starting for the lions

In fairness to Besty, his scrummaging is up there with the best in the world according some big second rows, Paul O'Connell to name one! And he's so good over the ball, he get so low, and his clearout technique is fantastic. His darts can go awry at times, but it wasnt really his fault the missed one at the end of the blues game, and we do need some risks, he will help us a lot more around the park and shore up some weaknesses... Im not saying I'd start him, but there are legitimate reasons why he could be picked

 

[Jakedood]

Bar that lineout, which was Itoje's fault imo, what has Best done wrong? He certainly does more at the breakdown than the other hookers and his scrum is probably the best. Not many highlight plays but then again, he's a hooker!

Hookers form the highlight of many a man's life good sir

 

[valley commando]

So.. your team would be
Mcgrath, Best, Furlong
Lawes Itoje
Warburton (In poor form), Tipuric, Faletau

Murray, Sexton
North, Davies? North at 12, sorry Just dont see any damn logic there
Halfpenny, Williams, Watson?

No offense valley, but I'd freak if Gats went for this team

Non taken, I see combos in each row + at half back working, yes North at centre may be left-field however North has played centre before and I feel he needs to get the ball in his hands more.

 

[Jakedood]

Non taken, I see combos in each row + at half back working, yes North at centre may be left-field however North has played centre before and I feel he needs to get the ball in his hands more.

He's played outside centre at a push, shoving him in at 12, well his passing is worse than JD2, whats the point in even having the wingers in the line when we're attacking. May as well just have them assume defensive positions to prepare for if/when the ball gets turned over

 

[valley commando]

I've kind of thrown form out the window because there's no one in horrendous form if we're being honest and JJ for me is a flat out better player than Davies (Ringrose too).

If you look at the last four years and the competition between Ireland, England and Wales and the records v NZ it's pretty clear that Wales have too much involvement in this tour;
6n
Ireland: 1st, 1st, 3rd, 2nd
England: 2nd, 2nd, GS, 1st
Wales: 3rd, 3rd, 2nd, 5th

vs NZ
Ireland: 1-0-2, agg 71-74 (NZ win by 1.5 on average)
England: 0-0-5, agg 98-138 (NZ win by 8 on average)
Wales: 0-0-4, 65-128 (NZ win by 15.75 on average)

There's a clear third place here that is having as much influence on tour as 1st and 2nd, why continue with tried, tested and failed systems and personnel when you don't have too?

Don't agree that JJ or any other centre is currently better than the Fox , anybody suggesting that the best player on the pitch for the Lions last Saturday be dropped needs their head examining

 

[valley commando]

He's played outside centre at a push, shoving him in at 12, well his passing is worse than JD2, whats the point in even having the wingers in the line when we're attacking. May as well just have them assume defensive positions to prepare for if/when the ball gets turned over

You are probably right, just feel we need to do things a little differently next Saturday.

 

[Jakedood]

You are probably right, just feel we need to do things a little differently next Saturday.

True... and one thing I will say is I agree with you on JD2, mostly as he supported the ball carriers brilliantly yesterday, with the only criticism I can level at him being his lack of top end pace, which forced us to have to make more plays than needed after making the break yesterday. Joseph is much sharper there, and in his distribution game, though JD2 is on better form.
I certainly wouldnt swap out Te'o though, I really enjoyed his battle with SBW, and actually felt he came out on top

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Don't agree that JJ or any other centre is currently better than the Fox , anybody suggesting that the best player on the pitch for the Lions last Saturday be dropped needs their head examining

I did say it was harsh and had nothing to do with form but Wales,in their current form couldn't beat NZ, Ireland and England can, pick from this sample and supplement it where needed. A pretty good Lions performance resulted in a 15 point loss, Gats needs to be pretty radical at this point.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I've kind of thrown form out the window because there's no one in horrendous form if we're being honest and JJ for me is a flat out better player than Davies (Ringrose too).

If you look at the last four years and the competition between Ireland, England and Wales and the records v NZ it's pretty clear that Wales have too much involvement in this tour;
6n
Ireland: 1st, 1st, 3rd, 2nd
England: 2nd, 2nd, GS, 1st
Wales: 3rd, 3rd, 2nd, 5th

vs NZ
Ireland: 1-0-2, agg 71-74 (NZ win by 1.5 on average)
England: 0-0-5, agg 98-138 (NZ win by 8 on average)
Wales: 0-0-4, 65-128 (NZ win by 15.75 on average)

There's a clear third place here that is having as much influence on tour as 1st and 2nd, why continue with tried, tested and failed systems and personnel when you don't have too?

Saying that JJ didn't feature in any of those 5 England V New Zealand games in fact the only time he has played v NZ was in the 2012 Twickenham game when he came on for Manu (Who had probably the most dominant performance a NH player has had v New Zealand) at 66mins and England was winning 35-14.

I agree about to many are involved AWJ IMO shouldn't be in the 23 ahead of Lawes or Henderson (And Itoje should be starting) and i'm on the fence about Owens, and on form netiehr Halfpenny or North should be in the 23 shirt would rather see Payne in the 23 shirt really.

But Davies should 100% keep his shirt.



i really hope that AWJ not being in this 23 doesn't mean he is in test team.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Saying that JJ didn't feature in any of those 5 England V New Zealand games in fact the only time he has played v NZ was in the 2012 Twickenham game when he came on for Manu (Who had probably the most dominant performance a NH player has had v New Zealand) at 66mins and England was winning 35-14.

I agree about to many are involved AWJ IMO shouldn't be in the 23 ahead of Lawes or Henderson (And Itoje should be starting) and i'm on the fence about Owens, and on form netiehr Halfpenny or North should be in the 23 shirt would rather see Payne in the 23 shirt really.

But Davies should 100% keep his shirt.



i really hope that AWJ not being in this 23 doesn't mean he is in test team.

If I had my way it'd be Farrell and Davies but as is I'm trying to get a player who can pass in the centre without losing the crash ball 12 and while Henshaw's passing is serviceable he needs his 13 to be able to pass too. I'm definitely in the camp that says form is overrated when it comes to test matches and this is it in practice.

 

[Bada-Bing!]

In fairness to Besty, his scrummaging is up there with the best in the world according some big second rows, Paul O'Connell to name one! And he's so good over the ball, he get so low, and his clearout technique is fantastic. His darts can go awry at times, but it wasnt really his fault the missed one at the end of the blues game, and we do need some risks, he will help us a lot more around the park and shore up some weaknesses... Im not saying I'd start him, but there are legitimate reasons why he could be picked

Not enough risk to give up the lineout. That was one of the few things the Lions did get right on Saturday. There's reason he's third choice hooker on this tour.