The Leinster thread

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43550386

@Tigs Man xx

poor Heaslip taking to drinking after retiring from sport i see.

 

[Groundhog]

poor Heaslip taking to drinking after retiring from sport i see.

I guess our respect for Lancaster over here comes from the fact he never finished 5th in a Six Nations and only lost to Ireland once in his tenure as opposed to twice in the last two years.
World cups should be used to build towards the six nations. Who cares about those.
STFUart GOATcaster 4 Lions.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

GOATcasters trophy cabinet
3 Churchill cup
and a Championship with leeds.

Chokecasters record
3 six nations in 2nd place
Knocked out in a RWC pool
3 U20 JRWC finals - Losing all 3.
Winning 3 games in the premiership with Leeds and getting relegated.
Lost at home in the semi final v Scarlets


And if they do win something it will 100% down to Cullen and the very short time he spent at tigers.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

GOATcasters trophy cabinet
3 Churchill cup
and a Championship with leeds.
Champions Cup 2018, 2019
Pro 14 2018, 2019
Six Nations 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023 (Grand Slam x4)
2-0 winning tour of Argentina 2020
3-0 winning tour of New Zealand 2022
RWC 2023
Maintains Ireland's no. 1 ranking for four years after the vastly inferior coach, Joe Schmidt, leaves.

Chokecasters record
3 six nations in 2nd place
Knocked out in a RWC pool
3 U20 JRWC finals - Losing all 3.
Winning 3 games in the premiership with Leeds and getting relegated.
Lost at home in the semi final v Scarlets


And if they do win something it will 100% down to Cullen and the very short time he spent at tigers.

Just filling in the guarantees, that 2024 six nations is a bit iffy, could see France bringing their game in Paris to end the dream of 6 back to back slams.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

I'll reply to this here in the Leinster thread because my response is more to do with the general state of the squad than based in the Benetton game.

Thoughts on actual individuals.

Richardt Straus was one for my favourite players in the world five years ago but he's completely and utterly past it at this point.

Jack McGrath outside the 6N off the bench is having a shockingly average season to the point where Kilcoyne should probably be ahead of him on in Australia. Massive climbdown from last year where he was one if the top LHs in the world on form. I thought he'd get his spot back from Healy fairly quickly but I can't see him getting back by Japan anymore.

Dunno why Ian Nagle and Mick Kearney are in the squad. We'd be better off giving some academy hotshot a chance at this point. Ross Molony has been a bit of a letdown given his talent. Seán Ó'Brien was clearly not fit. Deegan might be the only player in the pack who acquitted himself well. (Maybe Nordi.)

JGP is not good enough at all. Way too inconsistent for a 9. Talented but makes too many errors. Should be offloaded given we can't pick him for big games anymore. Joey needs more time at 10 but at least he tried tonight. Noel Reid is utterly pointless. We'd do well to sign a decent overseas centre who can play 12 and 13 and cover for Henshaw/Ringrose. Nacewa won't be round much longer and doesn't play Pro14 anymore.

Despite all the hype during Christmas our squad depth is nowhere near where it was under Schmidt. Having said this, it'll be forgotten if we win next week.

Richardt Strauss is now the 4th choice hooker with Ronan Kelleher not far behind him either. There has been some talk that last night was his last game in the RDS. As such, I'm glad he signed off with a try. I'd rather remember him as the player he was from 2010-2015 than how he has been since injuries struck.

Agree that Jack McGrath has been off colour this season. Still glad to have somebody of his calibre in the 23.

In the second row, Scott Fardy, James Ryan and Devin Toner are clearly 1st, 2nd and 3rd choice in no particular order. Ross Molony isn't in their class but you'll go a long way to find a 4th lock as good as him. When you get down to 5th and 6th choice, that's where there are problems but I'd venture to say every team is the same. I'd imagine there are cheaper options who can do the same job and have more upside though. Could Josh Murphy make the switch? It'd free up game time for Caelan Doris in the backrow too.

Disagree about Jamison Gibson Park. Despite his faults, he's the second best scrum half in the squad. If one of Scott Fardy or James Lowe is injured, he makes the 23 every time. Would be great to see Nick McCarthy and Hugh O'Sullivan develop as players though.

Noel Reid is 3rd choice 12. Again, you'll go a long way to find somebody better to do the job. I would like to see Ciarán Frawley or Tommy O'Brien developed in the role though as both have a higher ceiling than Reid.

 

[Leinster Fan]

I'll reply to this here in the Leinster thread because my response is more to do with the general state of the squad than based in the Benetton game.

Richardt Strauss is now the 4th choice hooker with Ronan Kelleher not far behind him either. There has been some talk that last night was his last game in the RDS. As such, I'm glad he signed off with a try. I'd rather remember him as the player he was from 2010-2015 than how he has been since injuries struck.

Agree that Jack McGrath has been off colour this season. Still glad to have somebody of his calibre in the 23.

In the second row, Scott Fardy, James Ryan and Devin Toner are clearly 1st, 2nd and 3rd choice in no particular order. Ross Molony isn't in their class but you'll go a long way to find a 4th lock as good as him. When you get down to 5th and 6th choice, that's where there are problems but I'd venture to say every team is the same. I'd imagine there are cheaper options who can do the same job and have more upside though. Could Josh Murphy make the switch? It'd free up game time for Caelan Doris in the backrow too.

Disagree about Jamison Gibson Park. Despite his faults, he's the second best scrum half in the squad. If one of Scott Fardy or James Lowe is injured, he makes the 23 every time. Would be great to see Nick McCarthy and Hugh O'Sullivan develop as players though.

Noel Reid is 3rd choice 12. Again, you'll go a long way to find somebody better to do the job. I would like to see Ciarán Frawley or Tommy O'Brien developed in the role though as both have a higher ceiling than Reid.

I know it's mostly squad players who won't get near a European game that I'm talking about and I'll admit I probably went a bit over the top last night due to not being in a particularly good mood and having watched our worst performance/result of the season but really it doesn't matter his much they've improved, we should never lose to an Italian team at home. I love Strauss but it's breaking my heart to see him like this as opposed to who to the player he used to be. If it is his last game, it's nice that he got a try but he deserves a far bigger send off that won't happen.

I still disagree about JGP. On his day he's fantastic but when he's bad he's really really really bad. I don't think he justifies an overseas spot and given we can't play him in important games I'd rather we spent the time developing McCarthy/Rock/O'Sullivan or whoever. I do think we should get an overseas centre who can play both positions and who could cover for the starters. Kyle Goodwin would have been a good option but there are plenty others.

In the back three, Larmour, by virtue of being far and away the best player on every team he's played for was never thought to pass but that's fixable and Kearney is no better in fairness. We have lots of decent wingers b wingers have obvious drawbacks. There isn't a back three player in the squad who's strong going forward and doesn't struggle defensively at times or vice versa. It's a pity Adam Byrne has had an off year since getting his Ireland cap because he's the one player who I'd think can be much better than decent. (Other than Lowe/Larmour obviously.)

Despite these problems this is easily the second best Leinster team ever and better than Cheika's Heineken Cup winning team who had some fairly crucial flaws. The squad in general is in a great place and we're in a good position to win two trophies which is great. As I said last night nobody outside Italy will remember this if we win next week. (And if we do beat Scarlets we should definitely end up winning the final.)

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

An overseas player should be rated on how much better he is than the guys he's keeping out out the squad, until recently there was a genuine debate as to whether JGP was so much better than Nick McCarthy that we needed him to bench rather than start Lowe. Lowe has since proven to be above European standard which answered the question but it had nothing to do with McCarthy or JGP.

The drop from JGP to McCarthy is big, the drop from McCarthy to Rock is huge, unless we can get a South African as good as or better than JGP, or McCarthy and Rock get better, I want him to stay. The NIQ spot to be filled is Isa's if he retires, then we need a centre. Currently we have NIQ's in the three positions we have the least depth and Lowe, it's a good position to be in considering three of those are key players for us. If we lose the two games in the season in weeks before Euro knockout games while resting three of the four NIQ's and still leave finishing top of the log in our own hands is absolutely no reason to blame the fourth NIQ for not being good enough.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

I agree that losing at home to Benetton, no matter how much they've improved, shouldn't happen. Hopefully last night acts as a wake up call.

There are areas of the squad which can be improved upon. Alex Ferguson was brilliant at recognizing when a player was no longer useful for Manchester United and constantly improved his squad. An area Leinster and Munster fell down in the past was holding onto players too long. I'd like to see Leo Cullen be ruthless in this regard. No disrespect meant towards anyone named below but are key players from previous years like Richardt Strauss, Dave Kearney, Michael Bent and Fergus McFadden going to help Leinster going forward? Do players like Cathal Marsh, Ian Nagle, Mick Kearney, Tom Daly and Peadar Timmins provide enough when they play or have the potential to go on and be key contributors? These are the type of tough decisions that need to be made.

A quality second row won't be recruited to be 4th, 5th or 6th choice. Will a top inside centre come in willing to play 2nd fiddle to Robbie Henshaw? I doubt that too. There is young talent to be promoted next season. I'd be shocked if Tommy O'Brien, Ronan Kelleher, Jack Kelly and Caelan Doris don't see quite a bit of action. I don't see the need for much recruitment but I do see the need for some trimming of the squad.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I agree that losing at home to Benetton, no matter how much they've improved, shouldn't happen. Hopefully last night acts as a wake up call.

There are areas of the squad which can be improved upon. Alex Ferguson was brilliant at recognizing when a player was no longer useful for Manchester United and constantly improved his squad. An area Leinster and Munster fell down in the past was holding onto players too long. I'd like to see Leo Cullen be ruthless in this regard. No disrespect meant towards anyone named below but are key players from previous years like Richardt Strauss, Dave Kearney, Michael Bent and Fergus McFadden going to help Leinster going forward? Do players like Cathal Marsh, Ian Nagle, Mick Kearney, Tom Daly and Peadar Timmins provide enough when they play or have the potential to go on and be key contributors? These are the type of tough decisions that need to be made.

A quality second row won't be recruited to be 4th, 5th or 6th choice. Will a top inside centre come in willing to play 2nd fiddle to Robbie Henshaw? I doubt that too. There is young talent to be promoted next season. I'd be shocked if Tommy O'Brien, Ronan Kelleher, Jack Kelly and Caelan Doris don't see quite a bit of action. I don't see the need for much recruitment but I do see the need for some trimming of the squad.

With the exception of Ferg who'll be a big player for us next season when he, presumably, isn't in Ireland squads, I agree with all of that.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

With the exception of Ferg who'll be a big player for us next season when he, presumably, isn't in Ireland squads, I agree with all of that.

I've no issue with that. He's been having a good season. Made a mistake last night but in general his defensive play has been fantastic. I'm more looking at it as he'll be 32 next season and isn't a big attacking threat. He's scored tries in only 5 games in the last 5 seasons for Leinster. Are Leinster better investing his playing time in James Lowe, Adam Byrne, Barry Daly, Jordan Larmour, Rory O'Loughlin and Jack Kelly? If the answer is yes, can keeping Fergus McFadden on be justified given he's likely to be on a big salary?

I'm not saying I want him to move on just that I'd like to see the question asked and not merely keep him on because of what he's done in the past. Same with Dave Kearney.

 

[Leinster Fan]

I agree that losing at home to Benetton, no matter how much they've improved, shouldn't happen. Hopefully last night acts as a wake up call.

There are areas of the squad which can be improved upon. Alex Ferguson was brilliant at recognizing when a player was no longer useful for Manchester United and constantly improved his squad. An area Leinster and Munster fell down in the past was holding onto players too long. I'd like to see Leo Cullen be ruthless in this regard. No disrespect meant towards anyone named below but are key players from previous years like Richardt Strauss, Dave Kearney, Michael Bent and Fergus McFadden going to help Leinster going forward? Do players like Cathal Marsh, Ian Nagle, Mick Kearney, Tom Daly and Peadar Timmins provide enough when they play or have the potential to go on and be key contributors? These are the type of tough decisions that need to be made.

A quality second row won't be recruited to be 4th, 5th or 6th choice. Will a top inside centre come in willing to play 2nd fiddle to Robbie Henshaw? I doubt that too. There is young talent to be promoted next season. I'd be shocked if Tommy O'Brien, Ronan Kelleher, Jack Kelly and Caelan Doris don't see quite a bit of action. I don't see the need for much recruitment but I do see the need for some trimming of the squad.

This is all fairly reasonable. Noel Reid is ab

I agree that losing at home to Benetton, no matter how much they've improved, shouldn't happen. Hopefully last night acts as a wake up call.

There are areas of the squad which can be improved upon. Alex Ferguson was brilliant at recognizing when a player was no longer useful for Manchester United and constantly improved his squad. An area Leinster and Munster fell down in the past was holding onto players too long. I'd like to see Leo Cullen be ruthless in this regard. No disrespect meant towards anyone named below but are key players from previous years like Richardt Strauss, Dave Kearney, Michael Bent and Fergus McFadden going to help Leinster going forward? Do players like Cathal Marsh, Ian Nagle, Mick Kearney, Tom Daly and Peadar Timmins provide enough when they play or have the potential to go on and be key contributors? These are the type of tough decisions that need to be made.

A quality second row won't be recruited to be 4th, 5th or 6th choice. Will a top inside centre come in willing to play 2nd fiddle to Robbie Henshaw? I doubt that too. There is young talent to be promoted next season. I'd be shocked if Tommy O'Brien, Ronan Kelleher, Jack Kelly and Caelan Doris don't see quite a bit of action. I don't see the need for much recruitment but I do see the need for some trimming of the squad.

Fair enough. Not much to disagree with here although I'd keep Ferg as well. He's very hard-working and an excellent role model for some of the younger players. Not an attacking threat admittedly but far from awful. Could he move back to centre to make up for his loss of pace?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I've no issue with that. He's been having a good season. Made a mistake last night but in general his defensive play has been fantastic. I'm more looking at it as he'll be 32 next season and isn't a big attacking threat. He's scored tries in only 5 games in the last 5 seasons for Leinster. Are Leinster better investing his playing time in James Lowe, Adam Byrne, Barry Daly, Jordan Larmour, Rory O'Loughlin and Jack Kelly? If the answer is yes, can keeping Fergus McFadden on be justified given he's likely to be on a big salary?

I'm not saying I want him to move on just that I'd like to see the question asked and not merely keep him on because of what he's done in the past. Same with Dave Kearney.

It we had the centre depth to move ROL back to wing I'd see McFadden as surplus to requirements but I don't see that happening unless Tommy O'Brien makes a leap up quicker than expected or a 10 comes up behind Frawley to shunt him to 12. If Kelly develops better than I'd expect him to that could be an option too but I don't expect an awful lot from him purely based on u20 which is admittedly unfair.

 

[big ginger 8]

We need some stronger centres, Daly despite his size isn't really it, CO'B looks like he might be a useful direct runner but that's about it. Carberry, Reid and O'Loughlin is such a ridiculously underpowered 3/4 line.

It's one of the reasons that Henshaw is so important to us and Nacewa was moved to centre to replace him.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

It we had the centre depth to move ROL back to wing I'd see McFadden as surplus to requirements but I don't see that happening unless Tommy O'Brien makes a leap up quicker than expected or a 10 comes up behind Frawley to shunt him to 12.

After a tough start to the season, Rory O'Loughlin has been decent at 13. Tommy O'Brien has more upside though. He's got a quality all round game. Eager in defence, a strong runner and times his passes really well. Before long he'll be Leinster's 3rd choice centre with O'Loughlin 4th choice.

If Kelly develops better than I'd expect him to that could be an option too but I don't expect an awful lot from him purely based on u20 which is admittedly unfair.

Not unfair at all. He wasn't great in the u20 6 Nations at fullback. When he moved to the wing he looked much better. I feel 14 will be his position as a pro.

 

[jcahill1]

We need some stronger centres, Daly despite his size isn't really it, CO'B looks like he might be a useful direct runner but that's about it. Carberry, Reid and O'Loughlin is such a ridiculously underpowered 3/4 line.

It's one of the reasons that Henshaw is so important to us and Nacewa was moved to centre to replace him.

Reckon thats a little harsh on CO'B, has had a couple of brainfarts but also some nice touches. Reckon he could be a decent league option.

 

[big ginger 8]

Reckon thats a little harsh on CO'B, has had a couple of brainfarts but also some nice touches. Reckon he could be a decent league option.

My phrasing was bad there. Didn't mean CO'B was a limited player. I meant that he seems to be the only one coming through who can play the direct running role.

 

[jcahill1]

My phrasing was bad there. Didn't mean CO'B was a limited player. I meant that he seems to be the only one coming through who can play the direct running role.

In that case I completely agree with you, Joey is a great player but needs some ballast outside him.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

SOB's season ender is making me more and more anxious about letting Jordi go. Jordi has been a consensus Top 10 player on my list for years but his form since announcing his departure has been incredible and he's a deserved starter. With JVDF's, SOB's and Leavy's injury profiles we could find ourselves in trouble wothout him next year, just look at our options for today without him. Fardy, Leavy and Conan on a return from injury with Deegan benching, that's not all that balanced.

 

[snoopy snoopy dog dog]

Can't find a link online but according to Brendan Fanning in the Sindo yesterday, Leinster are expected to generate a profit of €100,000 this season. Given the reported new TV deals with Eir, Premier and Supersport are bringing in around twice as much money as previously, that's hugely positive. Leinster were budgeting for a loss of €1.3 million this season according to the same article.

 

[jcahill1]

Can't find a link online but according to Brendan Fanning in the Sindo yesterday, Leinster are expected to generate a profit of €100,000 this season. Given the reported new TV deals with Eir, Premier and Supersport are bringing in around twice as much money as previously, that's hugely positive. Leinster were budgeting for a loss of €1.3 million this season according to the same article.

Do you know how Leinsters profits are separated from IRFU profits?