Wales Tour 2013: Japan

[Draggs]

Dan Baker looked decent for U20, so perhaps once Bearman is finished.
We seem to be pushing Ieuan Jones. He is still 19, so perhaps he will have a good stint with the U20's this year.

 

[dullonien]

I don't see much potential in Morgan Allen tbh. He has never really done much of note during his time with the Ospreys.

Bearman is probably the second best 8 at the regions and is a clear step above Jonathan Thomas and Powell. But he is 33 so will likely never get an international cap. Still better than some of the rookies suggested in this thread.

I've been impressed with Allen's cameo's this season. His problem is a lack of gametime, with JT preferred at 8 than trying one of the youngsters in the squad.

Agree about Bearman. Excellent all round player, but at 33 there is simply no point at all in giving him his first cap. Pity he's not 5 years younger.

We need the boom that has happened at 7 and fullback to happen at 8. There was once a time where Nugget was our only option at 7, now we're spoilt for choice, and there's more youngsters developing. Lee Byrne was once our only option at fullback, and whilst we're not overflowing in top quality 15's, there are a number of promising youngsters like Liam Williams and Fish making their presence felt. Has this been due to the academy's prioritising these positions due to the lack of depth that existed, or is it just luck?

 

[Draggs]

I'm going to drop some names here, who should be removed/included?
I hope we have a midweek match, anybody know if we do?

Props:
Ryan Bevington
Rhodri Jones
Scott Andrews
Craig Mitchell

Hooker:
Ken Owens
Scott Baldwin
Sam Parry/Anyone else?

Second Row:
Ian Evans
Bradley Davies
Lloyd Peers
James King

Backrow:
Ryan Jones (might rest him, he could do with it)
Andries Pretorius
Michael Paterson
Justin Tipuric
Lewis Evans
Josh Navidi
Morgan Allen

Scrum Half:
Jonathan Evans
Tavis Knoyle
Lloyd Williams

Standoff:
Dan Biggar
Rhys Patchell

Centre:
Ashley Beck
Another Inside Centre
Scott Williams
Adam Hughes

Back Three:
Eli Walker
Alex Cuthbert
Harry Robinson
Richard Fussell
Liam Williams
Dan Fish

 

[pete82]

15. Lee Byrne (Clermont Auvernge) Can't see him getting selected by Gatland for Australia..
14. Liam Williams (Scarlets) Although his form has dipped since the Autumn, Gives 100% and still think his true position is on the wing..
13. Cory Allen (Cardiff Blues) Not much game time at regional level as yet, But had a solid JWC, a strong U20 Six Nations could see him push on..
12. Ashley Beck (Ospreys) Creative centre, been unlucky with injury, deserves more caps..
11. Eli Walker (Ospreys) Quick, evasive, still learning at senior level but at the moment deserves a place ahead of Harry Robinson..
10. Rhys Patchell (Cardiff Blues) Arguably the form 10 in Wales this season..
9. Jonathan Evans (NEWPORT gwent Dragons) Would get my vote over Lloyd Williams, at least deserves a chance..

1. Ryan Bevington (Ospreys) Been improving as the season has gone on, can offer something different, very mobile and has good hands..
2. Emyr Phillips (Scarlets) Had already trained with Wales prior to the Aussie tour last season, consistent, a leader, always gives 100%
3. Craig Mitchell (Exeter Chiefs) Heir apparent to Adam Jones?? only time will tell, been unlucky with injury
4. Olly Kohn (Harlequins) Bags of experience at club level, wants to prove himself on the International stage..
5. Lloyd Peers (Ospreys) Has come out of nowhere this season and will be a big part of the Ospreys future..
6. James King (Ospreys) At blindside which is his natural position, could become an important player for Wales..
7. Josh Navidi (Cardiff Blues) In my opinion should be starting at 7 for the Blues every week, been my man of the match every game I've seen
8. Ieuan Jones (NEWPORT gwent Dragons) Small for an 8 and doesn't play there week in week out but still young and will develop physically..

Basically a Wales "A" team if you like.. Maybe you could take Lee Byrne out for Dan Fish or Richard Fussell, But I can't see much use in taking our most experienced team or squad, we will learn little from watching the likes of Paul James, Ryan Jones, James Hook etc. against a lower tier nation, we know what they are about already, lets blood some youngsters..

 

[Draggs]

I think Bev and Baldwin are steadily improving their chances of touring. That is a pretty decent team Pete. I'd rather have someone new at fullback to develop, but Byrne could add some leadership and experience. Likewise with Kohn. Captaincy would be an interesting selection with that team. I'd say Mitchell given that XV. I think we could see Ian Evans play some role on this tour, I really like the bloke. Let's make a bench for that XV.

16 Baldwin
17 Jones R
18 Andrews
19 Kohn/King (I would consider Ryan Jones playing if not a Lion)
20 King/Pretorius/Shingler
21 WilliamsL
22 Patchell/Hook/JonesSteffan (I could see Hook touring, Stef is mixed but a handy player on his day)
23 Prydie (might start him over Byrne, not sure at wing or FB)

I think Prydie would be a valuable addition. His boot had been pretty good for us this season, and he is getting the match time he needs. By the start of January I think he had played more rugby for us than the rest of his professional career.

 

[pete82]

I think Bev and Baldwin are steadily improving their chances of touring. That is a pretty decent team Pete. I'd rather have someone new at fullback to develop, but Byrne could add some leadership and experience. Likewise with Kohn. Captaincy would be an interesting selection with that team. I'd say Mitchell given that XV. I think we could see Ian Evans play some role on this tour, I really like the bloke. Let's make a bench for that XV.

16 Baldwin
17 Jones R
18 Andrews
19 Kohn/King (I would consider Ryan Jones playing if not a Lion)
20 King/Pretorius/Shingler
21 WilliamsL
22 Patchell/Hook/JonesSteffan (I could see Hook touring, Stef is mixed but a handy player on his day)
23 Prydie (might start him over Byrne, not sure at wing or FB)

I think Prydie would be a valuable addition. His boot had been pretty good for us this season, and he is getting the match time he needs. By the start of January I think he had played more rugby for us than the rest of his professional career.

16. Gerwyn Price (Glasgow Warriors) This is an outside OUTSIDE call, purely depending on how much game time he gets before the end of the season, reminds me of Lloyd Burns, watched him for Cross Keys a few times and couldn't understand how the Dragons didn't pick him up...
17. Rhodri Jones (Scarlets) Unlucky with his shoulder injury, had an operation and slowly coming back, fingers crossed can get some games under his belt and doesn't pick up any more knocks..
18. Samson Lee (Scarlets) Had a massive U20 World Cup and to be honest I'm surprised by how rapidly he has improved, a place on the plane to Japan would benefit him further, as well as Wales in the future..
19. Andrew Coombes (NEWPORT gwent Dragons) A close call between him and Olly Kohn, definitely deserves to tour with Wales, not just there to make up the numbers..
20. Kieran Murphy (Scarlets) Good carrier, quick for an eight and gains yards, is also capable of getting tries, has trained with Wales in the past..
21. Lloyd Williams (Cardiff Blues) Was going to go for Aled Davies of the Scarlets but didn't want to look biased, seems to be a different player for Wales, and doesn't look out of place, although he has never really impressed me for the Blues..
22. Steffan Jones (NEWPORT gwent Dragons) In my opinion every bit as talented as Patchell and a similar sort of player, defensively a bit naive, but would benefit from Starting week in week out for the Dragons, and not turning out at Full back for Cross Keys..
23. Jack Dixon (NEWPORT gwent Dragons) 100% certain this boy will play for wales, 6'3 and 16st (Still only 18) talented player..

 

[Draggs]

16. Gerwyn Price (Glasgow Warriors) This is an outside OUTSIDE call, purely depending on how much game time he gets before the end of the season, reminds me of Lloyd Burns, watched him for Cross Keys a few times and couldn't understand how the Dragons didn't pick him up...
17. Rhodri Jones (Scarlets) Unlucky with his shoulder injury, had an operation and slowly coming back, fingers crossed can get some games under his belt and doesn't pick up any more knocks..
18. Samson Lee (Scarlets) Had a massive U20 World Cup and to be honest I'm surprised by how rapidly he has improved, a place on the plane to Japan would benefit him further, as well as Wales in the future..
19. Andrew Coombes (NEWPORT gwent Dragons) A close call between him and Olly Kohn, definitely deserves to tour with Wales, not just there to make up the numbers..
20. Kieran Murphy (Scarlets) Good carrier, quick for an eight and gains yards, is also capable of getting tries, has trained with Wales in the past..
21. Lloyd Williams (Cardiff Blues) Was going to go for Aled Davies of the Scarlets but didn't want to look biased, seems to be a different player for Wales, and doesn't look out of place, although he has never really impressed me for the Blues..
22. Steffan Jones (NEWPORT gwent Dragons) In my opinion every bit as talented as Patchell and a similar sort of player, defensively a bit naive, but would benefit from Starting week in week out for the Dragons, and not turning out at Full back for Cross Keys..
23. Jack Dixon (NEWPORT gwent Dragons) 100% certain this boy will play for wales, 6'3 and 16st (Still only 18) talented player..

Price was passed up by the Blues and Dragons, and only brought into Glasgow because of a stack of injuries. An immensely talented player and great servant for us, but I can't see him going.
Lee is too young, he gets bummed one week and then turns it around, repeat cycle.
Murphy, nah, I'll go with Lewis Evans first.
Jones, depends, he can play a blinder or a 'mare so easily. I think Patchell will have the edge.
Dixon is a good lad, please don't Roberts him though.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

After watching Rhodri Jones again tonight, he needs to improve his scrummaging. As for Samson Lee, he will go again to be part of the Welsh setup but with Mitchell and Andrews (his last two caps for Wales, he looked like a different player) there I don't think he will get gametime. In the backrow, I have not been impressed either with Lewis Evans of late, but that's down to how poor the Dragons have been. But again if he can raise his game like Coombs has done then who knows. Lot of time to change opinions.

 

[dullonien]

Lee is too young, he gets bummed one week and then turns it around, repeat cycle.

Nah, he's been good for his first full season of pro rugby, especially considering he's only 20. Yes he's struggled against some of the better scrummaging teams, but that's to be expected at his age, and with underpowered forwards around him. Tbh, a lot of the time the Scarlets scrum has struggled, Phil John on the looshead side has been under more pressure, which works it's way through to the tighthead side.

I don't remember seeing a better 20y/o tighthead prop, so take him to Japan where he'll easily handle anything put in front of him scrum time and hopefully he'll develop further. Tbh, I still think he's a better scrummager already than Scott Andrews, and whilst he doesn't offer as much in open play, he's still a good ball carrier. But for injury, I can see Lee having a huge part to play for the national team in the future.

 

[psychic duck]

No player from the Dragons 23 vs Glasgow should be on the tour unless we will be embarrassed.

This is what I would go with. I think some here are overestimating the amount of players who will be on Lions duty. I don't think we will see as many rookies as some are suggesting.

1. Gethin Jenkins/Paul James (whichever one isn't on Lions tour, won't both go)
2. Richie Hibbard/Ken Owens (Hibbard could possibly go on Lions)
3. Craig Mitchell
4. Alun-Wyn Jones
5. Ian Evans (not sure either of the Ospreys will go on Lions as both have lost ground with injury problems and English/Irish locks currently more preferred)
6. Dan Lydiate/Ryan Jones (whichever one isn't on Lions tour, won't both go)
7. Sam Warburton/Justin Tipuric (whichever one isn't on Lions tour, won't both go)
8. Andries Pretorius (would prefer a proper 8, but few other options available)
9. Lloyd Williams
10. Dan Biggar
11. Eli Walker
12. Ashley Beck
13. James Hook
14. Alex Cuthbert (not sure he will go on Lions tour now with poor match vs Ireland and Zebo now more in favour as well as strong possibility that an extra full back could go ahead of an extra winger, having said that though Gatland likes his big backs so not sure)
15. Richard Fussell

16. Ken Owens
17. Ryan Bevington
18. Take Your Pick. Jarvis fit?
19. Bradley Davies/Andrew Coombs (one could start if one of Jones or Evans do go on Lions, I expect one of Jones or Evans will be available though)
20. James King/Josh Navidi/Aaron Shingler (whichever one is on best form at the time)
21. Aled Davies (I like this scrum half, a good passer, unlike the Webb/Gareth Davies/Lloyd Williams mould of flash breaks but poor control and passing and in the first two's case especially dire rugby brain, and the Phillips/Knoyle mould of flanker at 9)
22. Rhys Patchell (would prefer him to Priestland)
23. Scott Williams (could be anybody other back on form at the time, Scott Williams not done much for a while now)

 

[dullonien]

I don't see the point in going to Japan and only giving a couple of new caps. These tours should be used to blood some new players who deserve a chance, leaving some of the experienced players at home to get in a full pre season if they aren't on the Lions tour.

Players that I see as deserving a chance are (not all uncapped, but players who are only getting limited gametime, or are still developing at international level):

Prop: Ryan Bevington, Craig Mitchell, Samson Lee
Hooker: Scott Baldwin, Emyr Phillips
Second-row: Lloyd Peers, James King, Andrew Coombs
Back-row: Josh Navidi
Scrum halves: Lloyd Williams, Aled Davies (maybe)
Outside Halves: Dan Biggar, Rhys Patchell, James Hook
Centres: Ashley Beck
Back-three: Eli Walker, Richard Fussell

I'm not saying that all should be involved in every 23, but there's a good opportunity here to blood a good proportion of them. We won't have a better opportunity for another 4 years.

 

[psychic duck]

I don't see the point in going to Japan and only giving a couple of new caps. These tours should be used to blood some new players who deserve a chance, leaving some of the experienced players at home to get in a full pre season if they aren't on the Lions tour.

Players that I see as deserving a chance are (not all uncapped, but players who are only getting limited gametime, or are still developing at international level):

Prop: Ryan Bevington, Craig Mitchell, Samson Lee
Hooker: Scott Baldwin, Emyr Phillips
Second-row: Lloyd Peers, James King, Andrew Coombs
Back-row: Josh Navidi
Scrum halves: Lloyd Williams, Aled Davies (maybe)
Outside Halves: Dan Biggar, Rhys Patchell, James Hook
Centres: Ashley Beck
Back-three: Eli Walker, Richard Fussell

I'm not saying that all should be involved in every 23, but there's a good opportunity here to blood a good proportion of them. We won't have a better opportunity for another 4 years.

I do see your point. But I don't want to cap new rookies for the sake of it. I do want the best, most deserving players to get a chance, not just potential. Looking back at the 2009 tour, capping players who were then inexperienced and young such as Daniel Evans and Jonathan Spratt hardly benefited either's future career with both not even challenging to be first choice at their regions since (until Evans moved to the Dragons this season). That 2009 tour also led the coaches to (albeit briefly) believe that John Yapp could be a useful utility prop as he did quite well starting at tighthead against weak Canadian scrum.

On the flipside though, other debutants on that 2009 tour such as Sam Warburton and Craig Mitchell (then picked from obscurity as Cai Griffiths was preferred as second choice at Ospreys) all of whom's careers worked out pretty well over the next 4 years. So I guess there it's a 50/50 risk of these selections paying off in the future.

By the way, with a dearth in centres at the moment, apparently Gavin Henson is having a good game today ...

 

[Draggs]

That is harsh on the likes of Ieuan Jones and Jack Dixon, who weren't at the **** level of their teammates.
Pretorious is NOT and 8, Phil Davies!
Lewis Evans has been pretty solid all season. Hard worker and leads his team. I don't know what happened in Glasgow, but it isn't the same team that had played over the past few weeks.

The issue with Rhodri Jones is that Wales want him as a tighthead, and the Arsecelts want him as a loosehead. With Mitchell coming along welll and Andrews possibly turning it around (agree with you Cymro, solid against Australia and diet Australia) we should see Jones as a loosehead.

 

[dullonien]

I do see your point. But I don't want to cap new rookies for the sake of it. I do want the best, most deserving players to get a chance, not just potential. Looking back at the 2009 tour, capping players who were then inexperienced and young such as Daniel Evans and Jonathan Spratt hardly benefited either's future career with both not even challenging to be first choice at their regions since (until Evans moved to the Dragons this season). That 2009 tour also led the coaches to (albeit briefly) believe that John Yapp could be a useful utility prop as he did quite well starting at tighthead against weak Canadian scrum.

On the flipside though, other debutants on that 2009 tour such as Sam Warburton and Craig Mitchell (then picked from obscurity as Cai Griffiths was preferred as second choice at Ospreys) all of whom's careers worked out pretty well over the next 4 years. So I guess there it's a 50/50 risk of these selections paying off in the future.

By the way, with a dearth in centres at the moment, apparently Gavin Henson is having a good game today ...

Agree, but all of those I named I think have been performing to a high level all season, unlike Daniel Evans in 2009 who had only really had a few good games for the Scarlets before being picked. I still don't mind that some players are capped and then fall from grace, it's about trying them out and seeing how they go, as you said a few of that 2009 tour have developed nicely, and I'm happy that a couple of wasted caps are given in order to find those few worthy ones. I know some think of it as devaluing the jersey, but without an A-team to test players in, it's the only way we can really find out if some of these players can cut it. It is also impossible to predict future form. Some players are capped with little experience (North for example) and go on to be a mainstay in the national team, others are capped whilst playing well for their regions, and subsequently lose form (e.g. Daniel Evans)

May as well take Gavin Henson. Can I put Gareth Owen's name forward? Completely unjustified (apart from a few good games recently), but I don't care! He's still only 25, and is a hugely talented player, I'm willing him to come good.

 

[psychic duck]

That is harsh on the likes of Ieuan Jones and Jack Dixon, who weren't at the **** level of their teammates.
Pretorious is NOT and 8, Phil Davies!
Lewis Evans has been pretty solid all season. Hard worker and leads his team. I don't know what happened in Glasgow, but it isn't the same team that had played over the past few weeks.

The issue with Rhodri Jones is that Wales want him as a tighthead, and the Arsecelts want him as a loosehead. With Mitchell coming along welll and Andrews possibly turning it around (agree with you Cymro, solid against Australia and diet Australia) we should see Jones as a loosehead.

Not really harsh. Watch the Dragons performance again and you will see that they were dire from 1-15 and some of the "effort" in the tackles was pathetic.

I will leave Ieuan Jones as an exception though as he did a decent run early on and wasn't responsible for the worst of the awfulness. And the fact we have so few 8's behind Faletau (I think we can just forget about Delve now even though on merit he would have more caps). Hence why Pretorius may have chance to play there.

None of the other Dragons deserve a place. Lewis Evans, Jonathan Evans, Tom Prydie, Daniel Evans all played themselves out of the Wales tour squad unless they are absolutely outstanding from now to the end of the season.

Rhodri Jones should not be considered as a tighthead where he never plays for Scarlets. Simple. Even though we are far shorter on tightheads than looseheads where Rhodri Jones is well down the list.

 

[Draggs]

Whilst I can understand that, to rule out Jonathan and Lewis Evans entirely over one performance (which was a shambles down to no one person) is overkill.
Jonathan has been the inform Welsh scrum half for the recent part of the season, while Lewis has had some good performances (better than Pretorius and Turnbull, both in the Welsh squad).
Prydie blows hot and cold, but for right now, I agree, he shouldn't tour.

 

[psychic duck]

Whilst I can understand that, to rule out Jonathan and Lewis Evans entirely over one performance (which was a shambles down to no one person) is overkill.
Jonathan has been the inform Welsh scrum half for the recent part of the season, while Lewis has had some good performances (better than Pretorius and Turnbull, both in the Welsh squad).
Prydie blows hot and cold, but for right now, I agree, he shouldn't tour.

Not ruling them out entirely. Just saying that they both played a pretty big part in a shambolic performance and are now way back in the cue in my view and will have to perform outstandingly from now on to get back in the frame.

 

[Draggs]

To be fair, Jonathan came off at 62 minutes when the score was 'still' 3-34. We really went to **** afterwards.

 

[DuncTheDoodle]

I think Prytdie deserves to go, despite what the common consensus seems to be. He's a very solid player, the sort of man I wouldn't panic over were he to ever be drafted in at the last minute, and he's still only 20. A good all-round player who has a future ahead of him. Get him further experience to go alongside his flukey 4 caps.

 

[psychic duck]

Gavin Henson has got to go on this tour.

I have been against selecting him in the past after long periods of non-activity and no recent form shown.

But I just saw his performance against Sale for London Welsh and he really is the best passer Wales have.

See video below. Swap Briggs with Jonathan Davies running through the space created by Gavin, and swap Mackenzie with North. That's what Wales could have. Need to be quick though, he's 31 now.



If London Welsh go down, I want him brought back to the Ospreys to play alongside Beck.