Wales Weak Link: Half Backs

[GarethEWilliams]

Although Phillips had a better game this week I don't think Wales will progress to the next level until we have a scum half who plays a different way, i.e not playing like a number 8, and passing quickly to release our backs. I would love to see either Rhys Webb or Lloyd Williams given a proper go. I also think its time to give Hook a decent go at fly half. I don't think he is as wayward as he has been in the past, and he should never be put at full back again. Also near the end of the game do the coaches not trust Hook to change things at 10, as they weren't going well, and maybe Hook would not have stupidly kicked the ball away into hands as much, and definitely not with a minute and a half on the clock. This is where the main difference has been in the first 2 games.

 

[dullonien]

Agree. If Phillips were 100% reliable and consistent then I would be all for playing him every game, and I could put up with his slow delivery. But he's not, he can be very good, or just pretty rubbish really, and when he's rubbish he offers little to the team other than his strong defence. I feel that Phillips may be best suited as an impact sub. Someone who can come on and cause an impact with his physicality and close out a match if necessary. Despite his poor performance on Sat, I feel that he was the right option to close out the game, and it was a mistake to bring Webb on at such a late stage.

Lloyd Williams has been on my radar for quite a while. He's a very traditional kind of scrum half, where his passing is his main strength. His pace can be a real asset as well around the fringes, and his defence is good. Unfortunately, his form hasn't been the best of late, and his weaknesses have become very prominent, namely his tenancies for getting charged down, and his inaccurate box kicking. If he can sort out what is the same issue really, then I think he'll be really pushing to start.

Rhys Webb is someone I've been really impressed with recently. He offers a genuine threat around the fringes with his sniping runs. He's quick to the breakdown and his distribution is good (if not quite a crisp as Williams'). His kicking game is generally excellent (although he too needs to watch the charge down's). I like the way he tries to inject some pace into the game by taking quick tap penalties, and his eye for space is excellent. His only real weakness is his decision making at crucial times, due to a lack of experience. The quick lineout throw in the Pro12 final, and his management of the final minute of last weeks game being two examples. Still this third test is the perfect opportunity to give him some more experience, so I'd personally start Webb.

I feel we are really lacking quality at 10 at the moment. It's become a problem position, despite having players with genuine potential. Priestland is the perfect player for the role when he's on form. Someone to bring the players around him into the game, and gain territory for the team with his long kicking out of hand. But we haven't really seen that since the WC, at least not the kicking part. Instead his kicking game is really putting us under huge pressure and ultimately costing us matches. He's out of form, and looks like he's really struggling for confidence out on the pitch. His injury in the WC, coupled with the abysmal place kicking display against Ireland in the 6 Nations seems to have hit him hard, and he's not recovered from that yet. It's be nice to be able to keep playing him until his confidence returns, but I don't think we've got the luxury of doing that, that's for the Scarlets to try and do next season.

So who are the other options? There's only really two, in Hook and Biggar.

Hook is difficult to asses. On the one hand, he's supremely talented, but on the other he's a little hit and miss. I do think that his decision to join Perpignan is really paying off. He's been playing at 10 week in week out, and that will only improve him as an outside half in terms of his game management. Hook was poor in the WC, but when we consider that he was simply getting thrown in and out of different positions, it's difficult to be overly critical. Many thought his class would show through regardless, but it's difficult for a player to get thrown into 10 at international level without playing there regularly for region. I'm not sure if Hook is the answer to our problems at 10, but he's the best option at the moment.

Biggar is another difficult player to assess. He's been in scintillating form for the Ospreys, but a lot of that is due to his magnificent place kicking. Wales don't really need that from him, considering that we've got imo the bast place kicker in the world at the moment playing at fullback in Halfpenny. So what else does Biggar bring to the table? He's not a massive threat with ball in hand, although it looks like he's been working hard on that aspect of his game. His game management has been brought into question plenty of times over recent years, with his first instinct often being to kick the ball. His kicking from hand has been a good aspect of his game recently though. I'm just a little fearful that he's a little like Aled Brew, in that he's unable to make the step-up to international rugby.

So Hook and Webb it is for Sat imo.

 

[Feicarsinn]

I'd agree with a heck of a lot of that. IMO Philips' greatest strength (his physicality) is somewhat redundant in this current Welsh set up. When you've got the like of Cuthbert and Davies in the back line, you don't need an imposing presence at 9. What you do need is someone with better delivery than Philips. In the first test against Australia the performances of the respective 9's was one of the big factors in deciding the outcome of the game. For me either Williams or Webb would be an improvement.

As for Priestland, I'd drop him out of the 22. I reckon he hit a very good patch of form around the WC, but you're not going to be able to get that out of him every week. Also, he's not a big player. Hook and Biggar will suffice.

 

[TrueSlawter]

Philips is a guy you want yet dont at the same time imo, the fact he plays a bit like a flanker is good as the physicality he brings to attacking the fringes as a 9 normally goes well.. but as said he can have a crap game and nout works yet he keeps going for the same things. The slow pass doesnt help either just puts the 10 under more pressure tbh. Personally I prefer Williams over Webb.. imo Webb is a better impact sub injecting the pace into the game with tired legs in the second half.

I think in the AI's Bigger should be selected for at least 1 of the games with a "full" strength team, give him a fair chance as tbh most games for Wales he's had a experimental pack / backline to try to get moving. Another guy I would like to see step up a bit at 10 is Morgan, I know he's young and needs more gametime but I do think he could be a future fly half for Wales just needs to improve his defence a bit more.

As for next game I agree with starting Webb/Williams and the other on the bench with Hook at 10 see how it all goes as tbh we've got nout to loose really now. I know a win in Aus backyard would be nice but why not see if hook is up to it finally?

 

[TVH11]

The frustrating thing about being a welsh rugby supporter/player. One minute a player is flavour of the month, the next we're all calling for his head!!!

As many have mentioned (as have I every time he's been in question), Priestland has played in a welsh side when the pack has been very dominant. He hit some good form in the world cup, but has suffered slightly of a WC hangover - mostly due to the media and fans over-hyping him. He's hit a rough patch this season, and now faults in his game are becoming more evident - It happens to all players when they return to their "not as strong as national" regional side (with no disrespect intended to the Scarlets despite my allegiance to the Ospreys).

Now some are calling for Hook to be drafted in, and he shall be our savior, but in fairness, he's had his fair share of chances, and been hit or miss. I prefer him at 12 - bit more times and space to think, but the player himself is adamant in playing 10 so why Should I criticize his ambitions.

We all know what Phillips brings to the table - like an extra backrow player, with slightly better passing. His one step then pass technique has been a frustration for some time for me. How I wish we could have a young Dwayne Peel to get in and get it out fast!!!

The Welsh coaching team have claimed that the side has always been picked on form, but they have overlooked Biggar this season, and many would argue Jason Tovey in previous seasons.

We all know that Biggar gets it "easy" with the Ospreys, due to their dominance up front throughout the season. But when playing for Wales, he has always been given opportunities to play in "experimental games" with no consistent combinations evident. The lack of consistency and dominance up front in these games results in a lackluster performance with most non ospreys fans saying he should never play again. Put Dan Carter behind a backfoot pack, and I'm sure he wouldn't come across as the World Beater he is!

Its one of those back and fourths that will always come under discussion. As welsh supporters we have an obsession with the sacred 10 shirt, and rightfully so when we seem to have talent.

As for the kicking tactics, thats something we've done for a while!!! Kicking for field position without going to touch!!! Seems silly, but then again we don't seem that strong in the line outs.

At the end of the day, we lost the game on the weekend due to numerous silly mistakes (Silly forced passes, knock ons, kicking away possession). Changing one player will not result in more positive outcomes, we need to eliminate the errors.

But even after that essay, maybe a change at half backs for next week may not be too bad. We can't win the series, so why not try something different in 1 area!!

 

[bushytop]

There is no incentive for squad players if the management team continue to play players who are SO clearly out of form.

So while Williams/Webb and Hook/Biggar (should be in Australia) may not be the answer (due to inexperience, inconsistency etc.) sometimes you just have to give them a go or the negative psychological effects could be a long term problem.

 

[Aedaphon]

Priestland on form is an absolutely fantastic fly-half, in my opinion right at the top of the pecking order in the northern hemisphere. He has the ability to spark a backline and create a running game, the single most important attribute at 10, especially with Halfpenny taking the place kicks for Wales.

However, as everyone says, his kicking game has frankly gone to shite over the last few tests. Enough to get dropped, quite possibly, enough to get dropped from the 22, definitely not. Wales has a young team at the moment, they can afford to let players work through their rough patches. I'm sure Hook could play a great game at 10, and I'm not opposed to playing him there for a few tests but at the moment Priestland needs time to grow into the shirt (and hopefully Biggar will be drawn into the setup some time soon, he's earned it)

 

[Patchey]

The future is Biggar/Preistland at 10. If Wales manage a win in the 3rd test there may well we less pressure (marginaly) to get a win over a SH side come the autumn, allowing for some more experimental selection which can only be a good thing.

 

[cyRil]

As my house-mate and I have been saying over the past couple of days, the World Cup made everyone forget that Rhys Priestland is Rhys Priestland. The spirit of Phil Bennett possessed him for 3 months and he had the best time of his career.

But boys, it's ****ing Rhys Priestland!!! Remember him BEFORE last summer? He was a shocking rugby player! I've remembered it and it looks like he has now as well!

Olyy, don't start.

 

[dullonien]

As my house-mate and I have been saying over the past couple of days, the World Cup made everyone forget that Rhys Priestland is Rhys Priestland. The spirit of Phil Bennett possessed him for 3 months and he had the best time of his career.

But boys, it's ****ing Rhys Priestland!!! Remember him BEFORE last summer? He was a shocking rugby player! I've remembered it and it looks like he has now as well!

Olyy, don't start.

Got Lou Reed in there. He'll do a f****ng job!

 

[Draggs]

As my house-mate and I have been saying over the past couple of days, the World Cup made everyone forget that Rhys Priestland is Rhys Priestland. The spirit of Phil Bennett possessed him for 3 months and he had the best time of his career.

But boys, it's ****ing Rhys Priestland!!! Remember him BEFORE last summer? He was a shocking rugby player! I've remembered it and it looks like he has now as well!

Olyy, don't start.

2011's Lee Byrne.

 

[thomas_davy27]

Have to agree with cyRil, priestland hit a good patch of from before the world cup, took his chance and now he is stuck there, its always been an issue with wales that its very hard to get selected... but once your in, your in... Priestland is a average international that just got lucky with a run of form, and i dont expect him to ever hit those heights again. all players go through bad spells of form. but i fear with Rhys this is not a case of bad form it just his actual ability and he was lucky with a good spell.

If wales can get Hook firing at 10 then he will cause any team problems, as for 9 mike phillips is a top player, but i do think it cannot hurt to see what someone else can bring to the table.

 

[dullonien]

Have to agree with cyRil, priestland hit a good patch of from before the world cup, took his chance and now he is stuck there, its always been an issue with wales that its very hard to get selected... but once your in, your in... Priestland is a average international that just got lucky with a run of form, and i dont expect him to ever hit those heights again. all players go through bad spells of form. but i fear with Rhys this is not a case of bad form it just his actual ability and he was lucky with a good spell.

If wales can get Hook firing at 10 then he will cause any team problems, as for 9 mike phillips is a top player, but i do think it cannot hurt to see what someone else can bring to the table.

I think you and Cyril are being harsh of Priestland. I do think that this is a spell of bad form and not his 'actual level' as you're suggesting. He performed consistently well for the Scarlets in Jones' absences for a couple of seasons, with only his place kicking really letting him down. When he was moved to fullback, he also performed well.

I feel that his problems are a confidence thing at the moment. If he continues to struggle with confidence then he may well not make the grade, but if he can go back to the Scarlets and start playing well again, then come the Autumn he may well be the best option for Wales once more.

 

[GarethEWilliams]

Although I want to win this test a lot I think we should maybe give some fringe players a chance. I would definitely like to see one of the back up 9's given a go along with Hook behind a strong pack and see what they can do, not just against a Fiji with an experimental team. What do we have to lose, and I don't think it is a step down. Phillips and Priestland have had their chances.

 

[Draggs]

I feel that Dan Biggar has a greater skillset than Rhys Priestland.
Priestland was selected solely for his ability to play flat and bring Roberts into the match. He has little game control, little flair, poor kicking, and passable defence.
Biggar is developing into the player we all expected of him four years back. He plays deeper, which in some aspects negates the need of Roberts. Beck is more suited to playing with space. If we are willing to change our gameplan, Biggar and Beck as our five eighths pairing would be the way to go.

We need to find a scrum half who complements our other inside backs. I remain unconvinced with Rhys Webb. He isn't bad, but makes too many stupid errors, and lacks game control. Phillips, as slow as he can often be, can at times dominate the game. He and Halfpenny saved our side against England when Priestland was binned. Tom Habberfield looks like a good prospect. From what I could see, he also has good game control. He also works seamlessly with Matthew Morgan, as they had apparently played through the age groups together. I hope Jonathan Evans ousts the f*ckle brothers from the Dragons (Wayne Evans and Joe Bedford, for those who have been spared seeing their mediocrity).

 

[Draggs]

Because Darren Edwards is incompetent.
Leadbeater was ignored, not sure why, as he never looked awful for us. Good, powerful passing, look at his highlight videos on Youtube. He actually played a few matches at fullback for Newport RFC and is now off to France, shame.

Beck/Hook wouldn't work, as they are both more suited to inside centre. Jonathan Davies is finally playing with his Scarlets' form, so keep him at outside centre.

Please bear in mind that Roberts was very deep when playing with Dan Parks and Ceri Sweeney, negating his purpose.

Nicky Robinson was a far more talented outside half than Stephen Jones. His passing off both hands is superb- flat and long. He looks comfortable with the ball, unlike some of our other first fives. Steven Shingler is another that I feel could be of use to us. He too works well with the ball, and if he had patience, he could have been in the squad. Enough about that ordeal though... I wish we saw a bit more of Owen Williams during the JWC. Our preference was a crasher at inside centre (Dixon, Allen) and not a playmaker.

 

[dullonien]

I feel that Dan Biggar has a greater skillset than Rhys Priestland.
Priestland was selected solely for his ability to play flat and bring Roberts into the match. He has little game control, little flair, poor kicking, and passable defence.
Biggar is developing into the player we all expected of him four years back. He plays deeper, which in some aspects negates the need of Roberts. Beck is more suited to playing with space. If we are willing to change our gameplan, Biggar and Beck as our five eighths pairing would be the way to go.

We need to find a scrum half who complements our other inside backs. I remain unconvinced with Rhys Webb. He isn't bad, but makes too many stupid errors, and lacks game control. Phillips, as slow as he can often be, can at times dominate the game. He and Halfpenny saved our side against England when Priestland was binned. Tom Habberfield looks like a good prospect. From what I could see, he also has good game control. He also works seamlessly with Matthew Morgan, as they had apparently played through the age groups together. I hope Jonathan Evans ousts the f*ckle brothers from the Dragons (Wayne Evans and Joe Bedford, for those who have been spared seeing their mediocrity).

I feel quite the opposite. When both are on form, I think Priestland has the greater skillset. The only area I think Biggar is better at is his place kicking. Up until this years 6 nations, Priestland's tactical kicking, passing and running game was very good. Neither players' defence is totally secure, although that's one area of Priestland's game which has improved. Jon Davies' first try v Ireland, and the build up to the game winning penalty showed how Priestland can attack the line well. Sure he's not a Hook or Matthew Morgan type of player with ball in hand, but he keeps the defence honest and makes the odd break/half break. Biggar is improving in this regard, but has never been one for making searing breaks either, and doesn't posses the ability to sidestep Priestland has.

A lot of this depends on Priestland regaining some form, but I think that will happen with the Scarlets next season. For now he should be replaced for Wales, because it's important to have form players on the pitch.

As for Rhys Webb, I think he's developing nicely. He's the best all round scrum half available. Yes he's been making a few too many silly errors, and his game control isn't there quite yet, but I think they will come. He seems to be relishing his battle with Fotoali'i at the Ospreys, and is probably winning that particular battle. Unlike Psychic Duck, I think he takes the ball on a nice amount of the time, really mixing his game up. When he does snipe, he's often making half breaks, if not full line breaks. His kicking game is good, whilst he's quite physical in defence. I feel he and Williams are Wales' long term scrum halves, although Habberfield looks good as you say Draggs.

 

[Draggs]

I feel quite the opposite. When both are on form, I think Priestland has the greater skillset. The only area I think Biggar is better at is his place kicking. Up until this years 6 nations, Priestland's tactical kicking, passing and running game was very good. Neither players' defence is totally secure, although that's one area of Priestland's game which has improved. Jon Davies' first try v Ireland, and the build up to the game winning penalty showed how Priestland can attack the line well. Sure he's not a Hook or Matthew Morgan type of player with ball in hand, but he keeps the defence honest and makes the odd break/half break. Biggar is improving in this regard, but has never been one for making searing breaks either, and doesn't posses the ability to sidestep Priestland has.

A lot of this depends on Priestland regaining some form, but I think that will happen with the Scarlets next season. For now he should be replaced for Wales, because it's important to have form players on the pitch.

As for Rhys Webb, I think he's developing nicely. He's the best all round scrum half available. Yes he's been making a few too many silly errors, and his game control isn't there quite yet, but I think they will come. He seems to be relishing his battle with Fotoali'i at the Ospreys, and is probably winning that particular battle. Unlike Psychic Duck, I think he takes the ball on a nice amount of the time, really mixing his game up. When he does snipe, he's often making half breaks, if not full line breaks. His kicking game is good, whilst he's quite physical in defence. I feel he and Williams are Wales' long term scrum halves, although Habberfield looks good as you say Draggs.

Fair enough Dull. Priestland was excellent to set up Foxy's first try v Ireland, Biggar is good in attack though. His try v Munster was very good indeed, wrapping around Jones for the pass. He also set up Beck(?) against Trevison with a great little kick and gather.

Webb's kicking game is impressive, he saved our neck v Barbarians a few times.

 

[dullonien]

Fair enough Dull. Priestland was excellent to set up Foxy's first try v Ireland, Biggar is good in attack though. His try v Munster was very good indeed, wrapping around Jones for the pass. He also set up Beck(?) against Trevison with a great little kick and gather.

Webb's kicking game is impressive, he saved our neck v Barbarians a few times.

Yeh, never going to see everything the same way. Ultimately we'll have to wait and see if Priestland can return to the kind of form he showed during the WC, and if Biggar can continue his form. When Biggar burst onto the scenes for the U20's and the Ospreys I thought he was the future, but he abandoned what was his main strength at the time, his passing game. I remember his long missed pass at the inaugural U20 WC that put Jon Davies over for the winning try v France I think it was, and numerous others like it. That coupled with good game management made him a very exciting prospect, but after a couple of intercepts his long passing game all but disappeared, which leaves little in terms of attacking flair. Yes his try v Munster was a good bit of support play, but it was Ryan Jones who did the flashy offload in the tackle to put him through. He can create with his kicking game, with little chips over the top, or re-gathering an up and under, but I can't remember him making any impressive breaks or half-breaks recently.

As others have pointed out, Biggar deserves an opportunity in a full strength Welsh team. The closest he's got to that from what I can remember was the second test on the NZ tour a couple of years ago. But that was quite a depleted Welsh squad if I remember right due to injury. Whilst away to NZ isn't the easiest of tests.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Because Darren Edwards is incompetent.
Leadbeater was ignored, not sure why, as he never looked awful for us. Good, powerful passing, look at his highlight videos on Youtube. He actually played a few matches at fullback for Newport RFC and is now off to France, shame.

Beck/Hook wouldn't work, as they are both more suited to inside centre. Jonathan Davies is finally playing with his Scarlets' form, so keep him at outside centre.

Please bear in mind that Roberts was very deep when playing with Dan Parks and Ceri Sweeney, negating his purpose.

Nicky Robinson was a far more talented outside half than Stephen Jones. His passing off both hands is superb- flat and long. He looks comfortable with the ball, unlike some of our other first fives. Steven Shingler is another that I feel could be of use to us. He too works well with the ball, and if he had patience, he could have been in the squad. Enough about that ordeal though... I wish we saw a bit more of Owen Williams during the JWC. Our preference was a crasher at inside centre (Dixon, Allen) and not a playmaker.

Robert Lewis now with London Welsh was another impressive youngster that was let go by the Dragons. Some of the stuff he produced for the Welsh in the last couple of years was outstanding. Seriously think the Dragons should go back and sign him.