[2014 EOYT] France vs Argentina

[Jaguares]

I see it differently, from the Tahs games I watched this year he was pretty good, and he's been pretty tidy for Australia too this year. If I remember correctly he wasn't selected for some of the games in the Rugby Championship this year, so it is hard to judge him against the top yet. Wasn't debating if he was World Class because he isn't. Pity Douglas chose to move to Leinster and move himself out of contention for Australia. He is a very good lock.

I saw almost all Tahs' matches this year, ask anyone who reads the Super Rugby section at TRF. He has been a true impact player playing Super Rugby, but Super Rugby and International rugby are different levels. Kurtley Beale was also a big part of the Waratahs champions but at international level he has been poor in recent years. I don't remember his last game at international level in good form. In Dublin was a disaster again, playing against Saffers in SA was poor too, he couldn't stop a Springbok

 

[Darwin]

France should win this match. Hence I predict Argentina to win by 4 points.

Well I was close I won $200 on the match too (Argentina 12-) so I'm pretty happy. I'm glad France are such a predictable rugby side...

 

[Manu_ARG_JPN]

Go Pumas Go

Hi All,

what ranking will appear after beating France ?

Thanks

 

[kovana]

So..the team that plays negative rugby wins...

Well done.. Rugby the loser on this occasion IMO..

BTW.. no change in rankings for arg.

 

[ianw16]

So..the team that plays negative rugby wins...

Well done.. Rugby the loser on this occasion IMO..

BTW.. no change in rankings for arg.

Might not have improved places-wise, but would certainly have improved points-wise. Bloody funny as well. Good old France, always good for a ***** up!!!!

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

the no.18 TH prop scrummages at an angle the whole way and turns the scrum illegally without offering any serious pressure up front.

Thank you

 

[Big Ewis]

this match was very interesting because it was symptomatic of things beyond the bad coaching staff. I think as long as PSA is there, his incompetence will never just magically go away, but we had the keys to win this *if we really wanted it*. This was a classic France game, in hindsight, and in a way, it's almost comforting.
It's comforting because it generates a real fluctuation in form, which is oh so French - rather than no fluctuation at all but complete chaos and utter ineptness supreme every test match like previously. It's comforting because it means France are back, with their old symptoms.

We beat a good Australian side and really should've won by more, that's a 160° turn from a possible 180°. That means we didn't randomly hang in and survive, it means we actually played *real Rugby* for 80min, albeit with highs and lows. But lots of highs, mind you. And the one team that spoiled the party, the one team that came here to defy us at home and take a win on our soil in this very positive dynamic we were on, literally this (partial) resurrection was with no surprise the team that would offer the most hunger, the most implication and relentless aggression and commitment. How French. How very, very French. You can change the lineup, put in new faces, even abroad-born Frenchmen if you want, but that volatility will always be there. And Saint-André can't instill hunger into this team, not the way they need it...

Argentina took the game in that first 50min. They put everything they had at us on the ground, in the air, and in those drop goals. They stored up stored up before the storm would come, and when it came, our 10-0 run, it wasn't enough as they managed to kill off our last hornet's flight for goal and smother our last breath of life and it was all over. We couldn't buy back our first 50min of more or less casual Rugby, maybe/probably in 35min but not in 30min.


The one try of the match, a real team movement from nothing transgressing the defense, another very comforting sight and fact of this game:

 

[Jbobo]

Problem with France is that they simply can't put two decent performances together. This is down to a weakness psychologically, and weak cover for their first team. I am not of the opinion that getting rid of PSA will change this. You need to change the Top14 or it will not get better fast. I'd be a bit worried about the coming 6N to be honest my French friends :/

Kudos to Argentina, the better team won this one!

 

[Jaguares]

:dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance:

 

[Tony Manx]

Problem with France is that they simply can't put two decent performances together. This is down to a weakness psychologically, and weak cover for their first team. I am not of the opinion that getting rid of PSA will change this. You need to change the Top14 or it will not get better fast. I'd be a bit worried about the coming 6N to be honest my French friends :/

Kudos to Argentina, the better team won this one!

I would Stick to what you know something about my friend as do not think you know too much about current French rugby!!

 

[FrenchFan]

Can't see how changing the Top14 would suddenly change the psychology of the players. What a weird idea.

They've already changed it many times. Where is the difference??

I'm not the least bit worried about the 6N. Les Bleus achieved a wooden spoon 2 years ago, there's no reason why they can't do it again.......

 

[Big Ewis]

I would Stick to what you know something about my friend as do not think you know too much about current French rugby!!

Tony, friend...ignore what this fool says about French Rugby if he wants to continue embarrassing himself perpetually with ridiculous claims from outer space let it be his problem not ours, he's only making his case worse with each word he types. He's clearly got some form of strong complex against France...
We've got actual posting to do.

 

[Jbobo]

@Tony Manx and @Big Ewis Meh, anyone who says i know nothing about a subject but then can't give any decent reasoning time and time again isn't worth too much consideration basing on the lack of insight either of you could provide when I gave more depth to my views.

I'll just wait until the 6N and my point shall be proved yet again.

And Ewis, you looked a complete numpty in the Rate Tier 1 nations thread and pretty much got laughed out of it. I would not call anyone a fool if i had your level or absurdity in the majority of my posts.

 

[Big Ewis]

I watched this game again because I felt it was interesting from a "symptomatic" pov.

For those first 50 min: passiveness in rucks, on defense too (allowing all those drops) inability to adapt to the game, rigid game plan on defense despite good organization and rush defense. We looked on cruise control, almost spectators in spurts - they looked on a mission.
Any time we got some rhythm offensively, they made us backpedal on each impact.
Errant kicks from Spedding and bad ones from Lopez too (very uncharacteristic, staff must've formatted him badly…) and Talès a bit later, getting rid of the ball too fast when there are good numbers in succession on the width.
Our big guys (Bastareaud, Atonio amongst others) fed when stationary and at opposite defense level, no momentum like how Wales use Roberts or NZ Nonu.

Add to that some unforced errors (second knock-on of the tour in the maul after lineout throw…), bad lineouts wasting amunitions, guys not catching balls a couple of times, spilling from rucks in decisive moments (Fofana dropping the ball 10m from the line at the 40th)…a guy making a nice break and the next guy knocks on like he's not expecting a pass...

Bad form on attack too. Was much better against Fiji and Australia. We're congested in one area when the cavalry should be available clearly and in a logical configuration, but the positioning was much better this EOYT overall than previously.

What did work well was the pressing rush defense forming a clog at midfield pushing towards the outsides and our (back) cover picking up the ball in timely fashion each time the Pumas tried chips. Very good interaction between front and back.

You know it's a state of mind when we have a much bigger set of guys on the field and we're still being pinned down and pushed back, losing 10m/20m on our own attacks. And also interesting, we're still subjected to the same rhythm at the start of the second half, a time you'd think we would grab the match by the balls and change the tides. Nope. Same shhit. Let's not forget their comfortably kicked drop again at the 46th, the very start of the 2nd H.

This match was very interesting I see now with hindsight because it was half way between the chaotic previous form and the first 2 November matches. This group has real potential, EVEN with the clowns in office which is quite laudable. It's just a matter of being on a good day...the next 6N will be very interesting. We could easily lose the first one at home against Scotland for e.g. and then go win in Twickenham on the last weekend.

 

[Big Ewis]

Creevy was a monster:

[video=dailymotion;x2b47nx]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2b47nx_agustin-creevy-la-maquina_sport?start=1[/video]


Didn't need this vid to make this comment, had it in mind to say this even before this match, but Agustin Creevy is the best hooker in the world right now as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Jaguares]

Thanks Will!

:lol:

 

[The Jones Boy]

Argentina by 6

 

[KAPman]

you do have a point here, the physiologically this french team is weak and frankly lazy.
The biggest problem with them is I think Saint-Andre's attitude and team selections. He comes across as ruthless to his players from a discipline perspective, but not at all in game plan nor team selection. He has never decided on who his first choice 9 and 10 are, nor how he wants the backline to play as a unit. He blames the French players stamina and fitness and blames the Top 14, and he is right to a point, but he seems to be just making excuses. The team looks in a worse state than they were under Marc Lievremont.
This French team are lazy physiologically, they're badly coached, they're rottenly selected.

 

[FrenchFan]

you do have a point here, the physiologically this french team is weak and frankly lazy.
The biggest problem with them is I think Saint-Andre's attitude and team selections. He comes across as ruthless to his players from a discipline perspective, but not at all in game plan nor team selection. He has never decided on who his first choice 9 and 10 are, nor how he wants the backline to play as a unit. He blames the French players stamina and fitness and blames the Top 14, and he is right to a point, but he seems to be just making excuses. The team looks in a worse state than they were under Marc Lievremont.
This French team are lazy physiologically, they're badly coached, they're rottenly selected.

oh oh big big hiding in store for us in Paris from Scotland then? right?

 

[KAPman]

we played great rugby this autumn, n Vern Cotter looks like he's moving us forward. If we keep that up and don't be loose and indisciplined, we can beat France on the opening game of the 6 nations.
Basically almost all of France's points they've got under Saint Andre have come from opposition errors and french turnovers, with France not bothering to create anything

 

[FrenchFan]

Not sure why scoring off turnovers is a problem. It's a skill.

Creativity alone doesn't win games. Argentina didn't create anything either but won. That's all that matters. They never looked like scoring a try while we breached their line twice.

 

[Big Ewis]

actually I more or less agree with KAPman. Anything, and I mean ANYTHING can happen under Saint-André. We can squeeze in a tournament win in some months or just as easily finish 5th. There is no progression from tour to tour, from one period of the year to the next, every time we get together it's a completely new story of its own with absolutely no continuity from the previous time whatsoever. We go from a very bad 6N to a decent last performance against Ireland (we really should've won) and think things are a bit in place and then go to Australia and produce a fkng nightmare. Now, we come back in November and produce a much better 3-test series.
This isn't the famous French inconsistency, this is Saint-André's unparalleled incompetence that we just never ever EVER know what to expect from France.
So Scotland are very well capable of coming here and beating us in the first game, just as much as we're capable in that same tournament to go and beat England in Twickers to finish off.

Although nope, KAP we're not a counter-team anymore. You have Huget's 80m run in Murrayfield in mind but that was Feb. We scored full team tries against all of Fiji, Australia and Argentina, from nothing. Built everything and scored. Not counting all the ones we were a finger away from scoring, and there were quite a few this November...

 

[FrenchFan]

actually I more or less agree with KAPman. Anything, and I mean ANYTHING can happen under Saint-André. We can squeeze in a tournament win in some months or just as easily finish 5th. There is no progression from tour to tour, from one period of the year to the next, every time we get together it's a completely new story of its own with absolutely no continuity from the previous time whatsoever. We go from a very bad 6N to a decent last performance against Ireland (we really should've won) and think things are a bit in place and then go to Australia and produce a fkng nightmare. Now, we come back in November and produce a much better 3-test series.
This isn't the famous French inconsistency, this is Saint-André's unparalleled incompetence that we just never ever EVER know what to expect from France.
So Scotland are very well capable of coming here and beating us in the first game, just as much as we're capable in that same tournament to go and beat England in Twickers to finish off.

Although nope, KAP we're not a counter-team anymore. You have Huget's 80m run in Murrayfield in mind but that was Feb. We scored full team tries against all of Fiji, Australia and Argentina, from nothing. Built everything and scored. Not counting all the ones we were a finger away from scoring, and there were quite a few this November...

Can't really agree with anything can happen blabla. It's been the same lame coaching for 3 years. There's been no surprise. They've picked new players with a Toulon flavour now. But it's the same gig all over again because the issue is not with the players. They're playing musical chairs but the tune is always the same.

 

[Big Ewis]

There are some certainties: with such an incompetent staff, we'll never be *great*. Right now, we can't beat the All-Blacks although we have the players to on a good match (just in 2013, we were one silly foul in the scrum away from drawing in Paris, and we were fkng terrible for the most part on attack).

So we cannot be *great* but we can show improvement out of nowhere (2012 EOYT, 2014 EOYT, 2014 games vs England and Ireland) and be competitive and surprise a few teams every once in a while. Chances are with all our flaws we can actually finish 3rd, 2nd or even 1st in the next tournament, and it isn't wishful thinking.

We can just as easily leave our improvements from November behind and not build on those whatsoever and become utter crap once again, there is no logic, no *maturity of the group*, no progression, consistent evolution - everything can crumble on the VERY NEXT TEST MATCH - just as we can rise from our own dust like the Phoenix, like nothing ever happened and play good Rugby and win a few games THE VERY NEXT TEST MATCH. Literally.

There is nothing remotely measurable, nothing some intelligence (foreign or native to the group) can calculate or reckon, there isn't even really any possible speculation as to what France will achieve, and there certainly are oh dear God there certainly most definitely are no previsions even randomly possible for this group.

You have some certainty about what England, Wales or Ireland will do. For example, you can't tell for sure they'll get 1st or 2nd or 3rd BUT neither will finish at 6th. This PSA France ? Try them. Just as you suspected you'd found some form of consistency, something of a rigid opinion about them they'll play 10x worse than you thought, or about 5x better than you thought.

So far though, it should be reiterated: we cannot transcend a certain level, not so far at least; like France could so miraculously do it before.

 

[Horacito]

The only reason Argentina didn't scored a try in the first 50 min was Cubelli passing the ball to the backs too fast: there were good chances with the big boys, but the mentality was different today: scoring points, getting the result.

And BTW, the only rugby in the first half of the match was proposed but somebody, but that wasn't the french.

Birmarck du Plessis still the best hooker on universe, but Creevy just showed he has what it takes to be there.

 

[FrenchFan]

The only reason Argentina didn't scored a try in the first 50 min was Cubelli passing the ball to the backs too fast: there were good chances with the big boys, but the mentality was different today: scoring points, getting the result.

And BTW, the only rugby in the first half of the match was proposed but somebody, but that wasn't the french.
.

I agree.

But sometimes they don't necessarily have to propose that much to win or stay in the game. Waiting for a mistake and playing off turnovers sometimes is enough. This is essentially what they've been doing over the last 3 years. Last year that's how they won their 3 games agst Eng Ita Sco. They scored 2 tries off turnovers agst Eng and one interception try agst Sco that was made the difference. The rest of the time they're not trying anything spectacular, or they're just not trying at all.

The idea that playing all the rugby is necessary in order to win is not true, and this is no longer how les Bleus play. They're not interested enough to do that.