[2015 Six Nations] England

[ratsapprentice]

I can recall Davey making 2 absolutely massive (relatively) linebreaks for England - not something that can be said for any of England's other TH's from memory?

 

[Every Time Ref]

I can recall Davey making 2 absolutely massive (relatively) linebreaks for England - not something that can be said for any of England's other TH's from memory?

You might be right, I'm struggling to remember them ...

 

[ratsapprentice]

vs Barbarians 2013 and vs Wales this year.

 

[Wendigo7]

Launchbury and Corbisiero will be out for the WC and England fans will cling onto that dearly as excuse when they're ousted in the 1/2F. I'm not even spiteful as I say this, I just feel it's a likely scenario. Totally see it happening.
Deep within me I want England and every team for that matter to be 100% though.

Do you think England have some sort of surprise for us all, some sort of last resort in store for the WC ? S.Armitage signed a contract under the table with them but couldn't tell Mourad. Stephen Ferris wasn't "done" this whole time but rather working out his contract with the RFU and those damn citizenship papers and steps. They got the token MASS guy from League already, so that's done...and maybe, but this will be difficult, have it so they start implementing the new rule that you can fly temporarily during Union Test matches, England will be fully equipped and trained for it and the rest of the world caught by surprise will be too late to get ready in time and will have to be subjected to aerial waves of 110kg Anglo-Saxon pterodactyls...but to get World Rugby to accept those terms, on such short notice and all.... :/

Marler has surpassed Corbisiero for me. At lock we have 6 potential internationals, so it seems harsh but I don't give a **** if any of them really get hurt, Kruis, Parling, Attwood, Launchbury, Lawes and likely Kitchener can all slot in with no issues.

We just need to desperately keep possession better and work out what we want from the 10/12. We aren't to losing to Ireland or France in a semi, I'm sorry it's not happening. Not at Twickenham. We just need consistency of selection in the centres and I think the fluidity will come. Perhaps look at the combo at 6 and 7, maybe Kvesic at 7, Robshaw at 6 is a better balance but on the whole it's stronger side the majority. Bar maybe NZ.

They won't choke that's for sure.

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Ford will be the 10 now. He's one of the best players in Europe at the moment, stats will even back that up and probably show the gap he's put on the rest in his position. Biggar's doing quite well as well.

I'd like Tuilagi Eastmond at 12/13 or Tuilagi Slade.

This "assumption" a player will get injured and they just will is arrogant. The only guarantee is that we will be very negative in the 2 pool games because Wales and Australia even in 9 months can't change personnel or tactics and both know that and have said as much. We play reasonably well we probably win 9/10 at home against both with the negative style. If we need to expand then fine, but I don't see any issue in exposing large weaknesses and we keep going to them.

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Imagine what happens when Itoje progresses. If there's one guy who's standout for his age, has leadership and credential to be a great. It's that lad. But he's 19 and only just starting to get into Sarries first team.

Very much England captain material though and will be on the scene immediately after the world cup.

 

[Peat]

I am still utterly bemused as to why people think Marler has surpassed Corbs.

 

[Maverick1987]

I am still utterly bemused as to why people think Marler has surpassed Corbs.

When I said about it I meant he's a more than able deputy . I've sort of given up on Corbs ever been properly fit again . I see Marler as our number 1 LH now simply because we can't rely on Corbs (no fault of his own admittedly)

 

[Tony Manx]

I am still utterly bemused as to why people think Marler has surpassed Corbs.

Mainly because Marler plays rugby and Corbs plays Doctors and Nurses!! It will take some months for Corbs to get match fit and can England afford the gamble?

 

[Maverick1987]

Mainly because Marler plays rugby and Corbs plays Doctors and Nurses!! It will take some months for Corbs to get match fit and can England afford the gamble?

I've heard he will be fit for the 6N with a few weeks in hand . Presuming he can stay fit till the WC that's plenty of time (that's a big presumption mind)

 

[j'nuh]

I am still utterly bemused as to why people think Marler has surpassed Corbs.

You actually think?

Corbisiero has been at the Saints for a season and a half now. In that time, he has managed 10 starts and 3 bench appearances.

He's been out of the game so long and so frequently, that we don't even have enough evidence to decide whether the new scrummaging laws have benefitted him or not.

It wasn't like he was even England's best player for years when he got injured. He was England's best player for one season. He had one amazing season, and then got injured on a high. It wasn't proven over time. I think some people have a view of him frozen in that time that he was playing very well. I'd be dubious over whether he'd have been able to keep that same ability up over the years since.

I don't have much confidence that a fit Corbs would be ahead of Marler right now, for three reasons. One, Corbs will be rusty from a lack of game time. Two, Corbs has had little time to get used to the new scrummaging procedure. Three, Marler has progressed very nicely in the last year. IMO, Marler is one of the England stars of the last year.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Equally, though, Marler's had one very good season, and a couple of 50/50 (at best).
He's far from the established 'real deal'.

Will he be? Maybe/possibly/probably - but we're not quite at the stage where he's part of the furniture.

 

[Peat]

Three, Marler has progressed very nicely in the last year. IMO, Marler is one of the England stars of the last year.

This right here. This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. Because, leaving Corbs out of the equation for the moment other than as a benchmark, some people seem really pleased with what Marler's offering as an England player and I'm all sat here going "Are we watching the same player? Did I fall asleep and missing something? Am I in bizarro land right now?"

He's been pretty good. Scrum problems have been uncommon, he's been busy. But I'm baffled to hell by what people think he's doing so right. His scrummaging? His scrummaging's always been pretty good - excellent technician who learns quickly - but he does get into problems occasionally, and doesn't ream people as consistently as I think you need to if you want this sort of praise for scrummaging alone. But what's he doing in the loose? His carrying? His carrying's been a disappointment for me and that doesn't look like changing. Adding something to the breakdown? Not that I've seen. He gets around the park pretty well and tackles his fair share - but more than any other loosehead prop?

What I missing? I'm seeing an above-average scrummaging prop with average loose abilities. You say you saw an England star. This does not compute, and I'm wondering what the hell people are seeing.


Also, all this talk about Corbs being an uncertainty under the new scrummaging laws is a trifle overblown if you ask me. He played two cup finals under them last season and his last game before injuring himself this season was up against Bath, where by most accounts I saw, he gave Wilson a bit of a beasting. I am all up for demanding exhaustive proof and that it's done against the best, and wouldn't want to assume he'll wander around bumming everyone he meets, but it seems likely he'll do ok at least. At which point I'd have to say, hey, at least Corbs can carry...

Back next week apparently btw. Plenty of time to get sharp before the 6N. Or more realistically injure himself, as clearly his dad once urinated on a gypsy or something...

 

[Wendigo7]

He's a better defender than Corbs for me and although he hasn't shown in yet at international level, I think he's better in attack as well.

Slightly weaker at the breakdown and scrum, but not by much. (Personal opinion)

Auterac continues to impress

 

[ratsapprentice]

Marler is a player who I have a lot of confidence in to not **** things up - and frankly, that's a big plus at international level.
His defense is very good, his scrummaging is ever improving (as is basically every facet of his game)... the only area I'd really like him to step up in is ball carrying.
But then again, I think this is a victim of England's coaching - "stand still, take the contact and go to ground".

Marler has improved since Corbisiero has been injured, so it's more a case of Corbisiero needs to prove over a run of games that he can consistently hit his peak.
Let's not forget that every time we've seen Corbs play recently it's been on the back of a long lay-off, and more often than not (in the case of good players) that means that players will be playing at their peak.
Whereas Marler has been playing near enough as much rugby as he possibly could have for both Quins and England - so inevitably will not be entirely fresh.


Just a stat that I wanted to share so it doesn't get lost in the rest of the weekend's games: Ewers made 20 tackles against Sale.
The guy is a ****ing machine.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I hope we don't do to Marler what we did to Cole and overwork them to the point where they get injured.

 

[Peat]

He's a better defender than Corbs for me and although he hasn't shown in yet at international level, I think he's better in attack as well.

Slightly weaker at the breakdown and scrum, but not by much. (Personal opinion)

Auterac continues to impress

If Marler hasn't shown it in 2 years at international level, what makes you think he actually ever will?

While I'm aware that statistics can be a misleading thing, in his last 15 games at international level, his three best carrying performances of terms of yardage read 20m, 6m, 5m and then it starts going down. The 20 yards in the defeat to France looks a downright anomaly. I'm aware that theoretically he offers great hands but 10 passes in 15 games and 1 offload doesn't suggest he's particularly able to use them at international level. Webber's made 9 passes in his last 5 games alone and 4 of them were for the bench; Hartley made 12; Wilson's on 12 passes and 2 offloads in his last 8. The disconnect between Marler's ball handling skills at Prem levels and lack of use of them at international level is pretty weird, but it's going on and all the other front rows seem to get the ball moving so why on earth doesn't Marler?

Corbs, for the record, could point to 10 passes and 2 offloads in his last 10 internationals - although half of those came in his two Lions tests - and top carries of 23m, 10m and 10m. Corbs for my money is the better carrier and the stats seem to back that up.

Marler is a player who I have a lot of confidence in to not **** things up - and frankly, that's a big plus at international level.
His defense is very good, his scrummaging is ever improving (as is basically every facet of his game)... the only area I'd really like him to step up in is ball carrying.
But then again, I think this is a victim of England's coaching - "stand still, take the contact and go to ground".

Marler has improved since Corbisiero has been injured, so it's more a case of Corbisiero needs to prove over a run of games that he can consistently hit his peak.
Let's not forget that every time we've seen Corbs play recently it's been on the back of a long lay-off, and more often than not (in the case of good players) that means that players will be playing at their peak.
Whereas Marler has been playing near enough as much rugby as he possibly could have for both Quins and England - so inevitably will not be entirely fresh.

You make a valid point about freshness - Corbs was on the back of a fairly prolonged spell of games during the 2012 6N where he really made his name though - but unless Marler has surpassed Corbs' peak, I disagree that he needs to show he can consistently perform at that level to be considered the better player.

Marler's poor carrying has been too constant, achieved while too many other players have been carrying well, and has gone on through too many peaks of England form for me to blame it on the coaching personally.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I think his carrying has been better than someone like Cole's has been and his defense close to the value of Cole's breakdown work.
Similarly, neither are particularly dominant scrummagers, but rarely are they liabilities (or anything close to that).

Basically - I think I rate his defense and generally error-free decision making more than you do.

 

[j'nuh]

Marler's abilities are understated because what he does well, most of the current pack also do well, and what he struggles on, most of the pack struggles on. I think they all just step on each others' toes.

I think he's a terrific defender, makes a high number of tackles and hits a high number of rucks. If Cole is like having an openside in your front row, Marler is like having a blindside imo.

His scrummaging used to be a problem. A couple of years ago, people were about as similarly against him playing for England as people are currently against Thomas. (Although I'm pleased to see that Thomas is making big steps forward this season.) Marler has made giant strides in the scrum over the last couple of years. A lot of people point to Attwood improving the scrum, but I believe that Marler's continued improvement has a lot to do with it as well. Also, the difference that Marler makes to the Quins scrum is pretty immense. It's not as if they have a world-beating scrum when Marler is about, but it is a marked improvement on when he isn't around.

What bothers me is that I think Lancaster is missing a maaaaaaaaaaaassive trick by basing the entire pack around players that have the same abilities of Marler. When you pick Launchbury, Lawes, Wood, Robshaw and Marler, you have five players in the pack there with roughly the same skill sets. (I mean, Robshaw is a link player and Launchbury can do a bit of fetching, Lawes makes some tremendous hits etc., but they are all there because of their work rates in defence.) Personally, I like having a front rower with a high work rate in defence because it means I can think about picking more specialist players 4-8.

Best of all, Marler is still only 24. (A baby for a prop!) We have a lot yet to see from him.

 

[Patchey]

Yeah, Marler is going to be a big part of England for a long time to come. He's still a bit of a rough diamond, and I don't think the Quins captaincy has helped, but he has developed a massive amount in the last few years and will continue to improve. Of course Corbs is better, and arguably our only bona fide world class player, but the fact is we don't obviously miss him when Marler is playing.

j'nuh has a veyr good point on the balance of the pack. Which is why I am all for replacing Wood with Haskell or Kvesic.


On another note, having seen Hartley's red on the highlights reel, I am wondering what Lancaster's reaction will be. After the 2013 final incident it was widely reported Hartley was one 'strike' away from losing his England place. He's had a clean sheet since then and IMO what he did yesterday shouldn't have been a red, but clearly a sending off is a 'strike'. With Youngs fit again maybe he wont make the 6N squad?

 

[Peat]

Woah there j'nuh. His age has nothing to do with what he's doing now. If you're bringing that into the argument, I've got to question why you're thinking it...

High number of tackles?

Going over his last 13 games...

Eng vs Aus - Marler 9 (3), Hartley 7, Wilson 13 (3)
Eng vs Sam - Marler 5 (1), Webber 7 (2), Wilson 8
Eng vs Sfa - Marler 6, Hartley 8, Wilson 7
Eng vs Nzl - Marler 6 (1), Hartley 18 (1), Wilson 6 (2)
Eng vs Nzl - Marler 5, Hartley 9, Wilson 8 (1)
Eng vs Nzl - Marler 11 (2), Webber 4, Wilson 15 (3)
Eng vs Nzl - Marler 6 (2), Webber 4 (1), Wilson 3
Eng vs Wal - Marler 7 (1), Hartley 13, Wilson 10 (2)
Eng vs Ire - Marler, Hartley, Wilson 7
Eng vs Sco - Marler 5, Hartley 7 (1), Cole 4 (4)
Eng vs Fra - Marler 5, Hartley 5 (2), Cole 5
Eng vs Nzl - Marler 6, Hartley 4 (2), Cole 4 (1)
Eng vs Arg - Marler 4, Hartley 8 (1), Wilson 10 (2) (Corbs - 6 - he replaced Marler at half-time)

For my money, those stats don't say "Lots of tackles", not unless you're David Wilson. I'd say Marler looks inline for a front row forward at best.

For comparison, Corbs...

Bil vs Aus - Corbs 7 (1), Hibbard 4 (1), Jones 4 (2)
Bil vs Aus - Corbs 8 (2), Youngs 7 (1), Jones 2
Eng vs Nzl - Corbs 5, Youngs 7/2, Cole 1
Eng vs Sfa - Corbs, Youngs 5, Cole 2 (1)
Eng vs Ire - Corbs 5, Hartley 4, Cole 1 (1)
Eng vs Fra - Corbs 4 (1), Hartley 9 (1), Cole 6
Eng vs Wal - Corbs 11, Hartley 6 (2), Cole 5
Eng vs Ita - Corbs 5, Hartley 5 (2), Cole 3
Eng vs Scot - Corbs 13 (1), Hartley 18 (2), Cole 11 (2)

Now, these are very raw and shaky statistics. I didn't count how much time spent on the pitch - I didn't count how many tackles made by the team in total - but, at a cursory look, I'm struggling to see how Marler can point to having a high tackle count for a front row player. He seems to be offering something that a lot of players can.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think Marler is awful or anything. He's clearly quite a lot of things going for him - but - England star? If people are saying that because they think he's offering a really big work rate in defence, I think they might want to rethink that. Certainly they aren't numbers that make me rethink my feeling that he's not special there. And, again, if he's not offering a particularly big work rate in defence, if he doesn't carry well, if he's less likely to move the ball on, then where's he a star...?

Verrrry interesting reading for Wilson vs Cole though. I'd missed Wilson's defensive work rate.

 

[Big Ewis]

Wendigo: do I think England could lose to France or Ireland at home in a semi ? Yeah. Not France, we're not a team we're 23 constantly changing faces who wear the same color while on the field for a couple weeks. But Ireland ? Surely. No matter what, in such a context, they'll bring the following: excellent tactics and strategy, huge commitment, a starving pack, and a very good HB combination. The only thing that would have me doubt is they've never been this far in a WC and might fall prey to the minnow symptoms, about 100% of what Karl Marx said was magnificent bullshiit in all its splendor but the one thing he did say that actually made sense to grey matter is history repeats itself. We'll see, maybe not, but it's an ingredient right now.

As for Moe Jarler, for an outsider like myself, I do think he's come a long way the past two years. He went from being just a dude with a ridiculous mohawk to an actual world class LH. It's upsetting, but it's just not realistic to look at a player's absolute ability, realistically we owe it to ourselves to account for their availability record. I'd love to say Antoine Burban is the best flanker in France, but he's just never there...when healthy, yes, but in this actual reality, no.

And for Corbs some may notice I've asked every so often about him, I'd like to see what he can do at this point. From what I know, as a scrummager he was always going to suffer from a couple of things: he's the kind (before the injury) who benefits a lot from the impact and what one could call "blitz-striking" at his opposing TH, charging into him at an immediate motion after the hit. Some LH's do it, Fabien Barcella immediately comes to mind. It seems possible when the guys are very young, but eventually they lose that blitz rhino-charge ability quite quickly. It belongs to more technical, more resourceful LH's like Ayerza or Domingo to fulfill that space and compensate technically when the scrum takes longer to put the opponent on the backpedal. Corbisiero will scrummage at an angle but judiciously enough and with such upperbody strength (back, shoulders) he remains in legality. If he sets position well and puts in that rush-drive, he can do serious damage. He's a very big unit (for a LH), almost 1m90/120kg, but that comes at a price. But he can rap pretty well, and he's good in the loose too.