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[2015 Six Nations] England

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Itoje was very good against Wasps yesterday- he offers a proper lineout option and was a real neusance at the rucks (big hits too- dislodged the ball a couple of times). I'm not sure where Sarries will use him once Kruis, Vunipola and Brown are back- he may be a bit short for a lock, but he needs to be carefull not to get too big and immobile for a no.6, having said that, some improved ball carrying work in the tight and he could be exactly what England need in the no.6 role to partner Robshaw/Vunipola (which is a bit of a poisoned chalice imo), since out of all the current options he combines lineout option, with big ball carrier and and being a bulldozer at rucks.

As I've said before, bringing in the likes of Ewers/Kvesic will only slightly improve a fundamentally flawed back row, because it will still be deficient in at least one aspect of play.
Ewers + Robshaw + Vunipola = wrecking machine, but also sloooow, no specialist jackal threat and a shaky lineout.
Kvesic + Robshaw + Vunipola = faster and jackal threat, but again no lineout option of note.
Funnily enough an in form Wood (the bulkier version) was probably the most balanced yet (still not optimal) with good lineout, decent ruck work, but only average carrying.
Haskell is decent, but lineout is still poor and he is a bit bulky/slow without exceptional ball carrying to compensate for this.
As above, Itoje could turn out to be a good hybrid (maybe not yet though).


Robshaw + Vunipola = problem. (cue the hissy fits)
He already has very good tight carrying. I think if he adds a little more weight than he should be in his ideal mould. Hopefully we will use him at 19/6, with Kruis being very similar as he can play 5/6.
 
England squad (35)

Forwards (18)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints)
Nick Easter (Harlequins)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (captain, Harlequins)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs (17)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Sam Burgess (Bath Rugby)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)


"Sam Burgess will also come into camp to further his experience of this environment as Bath have no game at the weekend."
Genuinely getting ****** off by Burgess now (or at least the RFU's pandering to him). He's not a premiership standard rugby player. Will be further down the line, but definitely shouldn't be around the England side now.
Stop giving him so much special treatment just because he's got a big name.
 
Agreed about Burgess although I will say his week to week improvement is blindingly quick!

However he'll possibly be ready for the 6 nations next year no point in giving him preferential treatment.
 
Genuinely getting ****** off by Burgess now (or at least the RFU's pandering to him). He's not a premiership standard rugby player. Will be further down the line, but definitely shouldn't be around the England side now.
Stop giving him so much special treatment just because he's got a big name.

Its not because he's a big name, it's because they reckon he is a special talent who will add something in the future and they want him as prepared for that as possible.

I'm beginning to find some people's view of the Burgess thing a little weird. I know that the amount of fuss about it is nuts, but all the gnashing of gums over Lancaster & co's attempts to bring him up to speed early makes no sense to me. This England set-up tries to accelerate talents that they think has it and so far, that's gone ok as a policy. How is this any different to Tom Youngs going to SA on tour when he'd barely played hooker for Leicester, or Jack Walker training with England multiple times? Were people complaining this much then?
 
How is this any different to Tom Youngs going to SA on tour? Were people complaining this much then?
It's not, and they were.
Youngs at least had a couple of seasons of Championship rugby under his belt in that position, though.
 
I don't think that there is anything wrong with him being around the camp and seeing how things work.

He isn't being selected, which is the important fact and quite rightly so.
 
Its not because he's a big name, it's because they reckon he is a special talent who will add something in the future and they want him as prepared for that as possible.

I'm beginning to find some people's view of the Burgess thing a little weird. I know that the amount of fuss about it is nuts, but all the gnashing of gums over Lancaster & co's attempts to bring him up to speed early makes no sense to me. This England set-up tries to accelerate talents that they think has it and so far, that's gone ok as a policy. How is this any different to Tom Youngs going to SA on tour when he'd barely played hooker for Leicester, or Jack Walker training with England multiple times? Were people complaining this much then?
I'm against it for a few reasons:

1. I don't think it does accelerate his progression. Players progress by earning a place at the next level, building on their existing knowledge in a gradual process. Right now isn't the time to be pushing him into the pressures of an international setup and running international drills; he should be at his club concentrating on core skills and earning his Premiership stripes. This constant need to take Burgess to the next level before he's shown himself to be solid at a level below, imo, is detrimental to his development.

2. People are demanding too much of Burgess too fast, and this (along with other incidents where Burgess is pushed before he is ready) puts more pressure on Burgess to come good sooner rather than later. I would have preferred that his development in union wouldn't have been done so much in the limelight and with so much pressure on him.

3. Lancaster has inserted him ahead of Hill...
 
Yeah, taking Tom Youngs to South Africa was really detrimental to him as well OH WAIT.
 
The main difference being that Tom Youngs had 6 years of professional union under his belt by then. (Even then, he only went because between Steve Thompson retiring, Rob Webber getting injured, Paice getting banned, and hooker being the weakest position in the England squad, there really wasn't much choice.)

Also, Youngs is hardly an endorsement for anything. It's not as if he's setting the world alight.
 
Ooh eer...

3ab5f0b7_OohMatron.jpeg
 
Tom Youngs, in the summer of 2012, was a guy with one single start in the Premiership. His entire top flight experience, including the LV Cup, amounted to 7 starts and 19 sub appearances. His mastery of the fundamentals of the position was, 2 seasons in the Championship or no, pretty bloody ropey. He was, quite categorically no way ready to start for England.

And Lancaster took him on tour anyway. Yes, he was scratching the barrel in terms of alternatives, but so what? There's always an alternative. Always a solid player to take on tour and fill a shirt. He certainly hadn't earned it.

Tom Youngs, approaching the summer of 2015, has 20 caps for his country and has been ever present when not absent due to medical reasons or Lions duties. I am utterly bemused as to how that shouldn't be taken as an endorsement really; it's one of the biggest mid-career surges to success in the game. Yes, his basics are still less than solid, but he has a proven ability to have a positive impact on the biggest possible stages in rugby.

I'm not going to say going into the England environment made him - but it almost certainly didn't hurt him. Taking guys before they earn it isn't detrimental as a principle, and if that's not what you're saying in your first point J'nuh, you need to be a hell of a lot more precise with your use of language.


And Sam Hill's behind a whole bunch of guys for England and that should be an entirely separate issues.
 
Rob Webber probably a bit lucky to be in the squad atm, he's second choice to Batty at Bath.
I hope England give George a chance at some point, he's been very solid all season and is always busy in the loose (certainly does the basics better than LCD/Youngs)
 
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got no issue with Burgess being there... He's got no game this coming weekend, and i think better he's there than at Bath where they don't seem to have a clue as to what they are going to do with him...

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3. Lancaster has inserted him ahead of Hill...

has he?

Exeter have a Semi final on Sunday, Bath have a rest weekend. Would you take Hill out of the Exeter preperation to develop his international credentials?
 
Have I missed the announcement of which players have been released back to their clubs?

I thought the EPS agreement meant this was done on a Tuesday evening before a Saturday match.
 


Serious (genuinely elite) gas...

http://insidecroydon.com/2014/07/16/record-setting-sprinter-takes-national-***le-at-english-schools/

Johnson-Fisher is a member of Croydon Harriers, although in Birmingham he was representing Leicestershire, since he is attending Oakham School. In his 100m final, he ran 10.91sec, the fastest time ever recorded in his age group at the championships.

It ranks him third on the all-time British rankings for his age group – and faster at the same age than Mark Lewis-Francis, who went on to become world junior champion and an Olympic gold medallist.

10.91 as a 14 year old - I'm pretty sure he'd be in with a shout of winning a 100m race against the top 10 fastest guys in the premiership with that.

Quins need to give him a ring... can't be letting him go to the midlands.
 
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