2016/17 Pre-season thread

[ratsapprentice]

Just a general thread for AP news during the pre-season. (we can do predictions in a dedicated thread closer to the time - leave that to me!).

So, a rather horrible story to start with: http://www.planetrugby.com/news/falcons-wing-to-stand-trial-on-rape-charges/

Well, that's a lot of counts, which as a complete non-expert in the legal field, would suggest to me that this isn't going to end well for Zach.
There's not a whole lot to discuss though - let's not get too drawn into it until the legal process is over with.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

****ing hell! It's not even a one off thing - four cases of rape alone.
He looked a very promising player, as well.

 

[ratsapprentice]

As I say, I'm not an expert, but I don't think that means he's alleged to have raped 4 people - the 4 charges may relate to one incident afaik.

 

[Tony Manx]

Like NRFC, I would prefer to wait until the outcome of the trial........ presuming there is not then a failed appeal against conviction followed by a served part prison sentence, a further appeal followed by release and then another trial to come - sound familiar?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

As I say, I'm not an expert, but I don't think that means he's alleged to have raped 4 people - the 4 charges may relate to one incident afaik.

According to the Torygraph that's exactly the case. Still pretty distasteful reading, but there are 2 sides to every story and we'll have to see what the rest of the trial brings.

 

[Gavin]

As someone who works in the courts those counts read like someone committed them against a partner or after a night out.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I think it's important to await the outcome of the trial before really talking about this matter too much. He'll he going through a very rough time at the moment, so the last thing he needs is people condemning and persecuting him because of something he may not have done. So try and keep discussion about it both minimal and in the subjunctive, he doesn't need potentially false accusations.

On the other hand though, if it is found out that the allegations are true, then what's the appropriate punishment as far as rugby is concerned?

 

[ratsapprentice]

I can't see anyone touching him.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I can't see anyone touching him.

Including Newcastle? Do you think they'd drop him for it?

 

[Gavin]

Including Newcastle? Do you think they'd drop him for it?

With those counts, if found guilty on all of them, he'd be lucky not to receive 2+ years custody.

 

[ratsapprentice]

His career would be over.

 

[Tony Manx]

Just on a general point, I find the system hideous that for days all that the public are made aware of is the prosecution case although I do realise that it's impossible to see any alternative.

Many people's minds are made up on first impressions and even where the case is thrown out, the impression of guilt hangs around the defendant.

Maybe there is a case for reporting to be allowed only once both sides have been presented although this would be fought tooth and nail by the press who see the initial salacious accusations as the way to sell newspapers!!

There is also the point like the school teacher recently who was proven not guilty but named and suspended from the outset and left with £200k debt after a two year fight - surely that cannot be fair or equitable when his accuser is anonymous and not out of pocket?

 

[tsof]

Fortunately for him he's been not guilty on all counts. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-37021841

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

seems Falcons stood by him fortunately.

Really hope he can and will put it all behind him and progress.

 

[ratsapprentice]

The swift conclusion of the hearing suggests to me that the case was fairly clear cut... any lawyers/barristers care to comment?

 

[Tony Manx]

Not up to speed but if he has been totally exonerated, why is his accuser not being done for perjury in what seems to be a she said he said case?

 

[Raggs]

Not up to speed but if he has been totally exonerated, why is his accuser not being done for perjury in what seems to be a she said he said case?

We find people not guilty when there is reasonable doubt. She'd get off the perjury charge in the same way he got off the rape charge. There'd be reasonable doubt that she wasn't lying. Clearly there's not enough proof to say he's guilty, but unless you can show he wasn't actually there at the time (which he was), there's no proof to show she was committing perjury.

 

[ncurd]

Rape and Sexual Assault it's an extremely hard thing to prove either way which is why convinction rates are so low which in turn stops people speaking out.

In this case it can be proven he legally entered her house for the evening in a romantic encounter and cuddles could certianly be considered a eumphamism in the online dating scene although certainly shouldn't be considered a sure thing.
What happened beyond that is very much a he said/she said situation. The only way to remove doubt is to get people to testify to past similar behaviour on either sides account. Or evidence of trauma.

It sounds all you can really do is say I don't know what happened there do I can't judge who is telling truth. The fast jury deliberation probably means prosecution offered little to no evidence outside of the womans testimony.


I'm aware of indivdual within my social network of friends who by all accounts should be locked up for an extremely long time such is extent of what he's done and regularity. But the only thing that can be proven is he leaves a stink wherever he crops up, get accused of similar behaviour, has been banned and then he moves on to the next group. He's pretty much banned from evrything in UK and Holland and has now moved onto Finland. Friends have taken legal advice of what they can and can't say so they aren't sued for liable by him.


anyway can't pass judgement on either side form what I know in this case. What she says may have happened there's nothing proving it didn't but there's nothing proving it did either.

 

[Maverick1987]

The part of this story that gets me is that after he left she messaged him asking why he hadn't stayed and why he wanted to leave so quickly ? Presumably you wouldn't do that to someone who had raped you . It strikes me as a disgruntled 1 nighter that went bad .

Obviously I wasn't there but that's my initial impression ....

 

[ncurd]

It's really hard to comment on this one incident as we don't know the full details (it took me to go back a couple of sotries to find one where she's messaged him he'd 'bucked and ditched' but plenty where she messaged him it "not OK" mind you reports are missing she said "JUST cuddles" and not they met for cuddles which changes viewpoints an intent)

Anyway yes those actions would count against her but people do some really weird **** at times.

story time: Back when I was at University I lived with three trainee nurses (nowehere near as awesome as it sounds). Anyway one of the girls went out with this guy one evening with a fair bit of cash. We were talking to her about it the next day and it turns out the guy got her in the back of his car and his chaffuer or something were driving them someplace (I can't remember the exact details) but refused to take her home. It also transpired she's passed out for huge amount of time during this. Naturally me and the other guy flatmate started to worry something may have happened to her as the entire story sounded dodgy as hell and asked some pretty direct questions but she was fairly certain nothing had.
Anyway it hadn't crossed her mind before that and she was still texting the guy until that point.

Point being people do irrational things when something horrible may have happened to them they even try to rationlise it as something they may have brought on and then act accordingly. It may have taken a friend to make her realise what had actually happened. Actions need to be considered certainly but don't take them as absolute after an event.


As noted the guys been found not guilty and should absolutely be treated as such. I personally believe in the right of a defendant to remain anonmynous as much the accuser as fase accusation can and do ruin lives and careers. I don't belive in their right to remain anonymous once found guilty.