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A Political Thread pt. 2



Take things with a pinch of salt but, if true, this is pretty damning of the Tories management, not just under Johnson but going all the way back to Cameron. Each PM has been successively worse and Johnson has now just taken corruption and incompetence to the extreme. This country is being dragged to the pits by them, who treat the welfare of an entire nations as little more than a game and suitable collateral damage as they aim to enrich themselves.
 
Surely the right to self-determination is a, if not the, fundamental pillar of any democracy?

[just don't ask too many "democratic" governments, they tend to be quite hypocritical of that little bit]
I never said the Scots didn't have the right to independence, I just feel that the desire to split Europe up into smaller states will become self defeating and those small states will find they either end up in a big nation (like the EU will probably become) or they get trampled over by big nations, either way losing a lot of their self determination. I think the idea of the plucky little state being allowed to push on in the world without being bullied by bigger powers is a pipe dream and I think the old blaming those who are outside the group that want independence for all their ills is a toxic and destructive attitude.

As for self determination, what if the Scottish highlands wanted independence from the lowlands? What if Northern Ireland wants to break out as an independent nation with no interest in joining the Republic? What if Cornwall wanted independence? Every county? Every city? Maybe along political lines and in the USA for example the country split in 2 between red and blue states?

I think the way forward is sufficient representation within larger blocks of like-minded nations, not ever finer levels of fragmentation.
so traditionally there has been two schools of thought for statehood. The League of Nations proposed the recognition theory in which you are a state if other states acknowledged you are a state. This was deemed problematic so the United Nations developed the self-determination model. You need to have 1. people; 2. territory; 3. government; 4; the ability to perform diplomatic relations. In reality you need to be able fulfill both. Catalan will likely be able to fulfill the self-determination model but because countries don't want to **** off Spain they won't be recognized as a state and therefore their ability to peacefully gain statehood will be blocked by some means.

The Scottish highlands and lowlands example is implausible until they develop 3 and 4 and is it even clear what 1 and 2 are? Same for the US example. Northern Ireland however is a better question.

I do think that your last sentence is a good one Ragey, and it really raises a philosophical question about where we are going in the future. It seems to be that we are getting more and more sovereign states that form extremely weak confederations.
 
so traditionally there has been two schools of thought for statehood. The League of Nations proposed the recognition theory in which you are a state if other states acknowledged you are a state. This was deemed problematic so the United Nations developed the self-determination model. You need to have 1. people; 2. territory; 3. government; 4; the ability to perform diplomatic relations. In reality you need to be able fulfill both. Catalan will likely be able to fulfill the self-determination model but because countries don't want to **** off Spain they won't be recognized as a state and therefore their ability to peacefully gain statehood will be blocked by some means.

The Scottish highlands and lowlands example is implausible until they develop 3 and 4 and is it even clear what 1 and 2 are? Same for the US example. Northern Ireland however is a better question.

I do think that your last sentence is a good one Ragey, and it really raises a philosophical question about where we are going in the future. It seems to be that we are getting more and more sovereign states that form extremely weak confederations.
There is obviously no right or wrong answer and I know many of the examples, short of Northern Ireland, are realistically unlikely. It's more about questioning just where someone draws the line. I find that people who argue for independence or some form of self determination at one level nearly always refuse it being taken one step further (eg the Scots would think that splitting from the UK is a viable form of self-determination but highlands splitting from the lowlands isn't). Go back in history far enough and the highlands had an identity that was distinct from the lowlands and in an independent Scotland there is nothing to say that highlanders may not feel they get a raw deal and think actually most of the oil would be in highlander rather than lowlander waters for example.

It also begs the question of what constitutes a unique identity. Scots may define themselves as unique form the English but imagine you took some random Scots and random English, didn't allow them to discuss anything specifically involving their country and hid their accents, would the really be able to tell who was Scottish and who wasn't without making some comment intrinsically linked to nationality? Could they point to how their lives, culture, world view, loves, hates etc etc are so fundamentally different as to define themselves as a separate people? NOTE I do think the Scots are distinct from the English but usually it's just asserted as such without any real justification why, just that it is.
 


Take things with a pinch of salt but, if true, this is pretty damning of the Tories management, not just under Johnson but going all the way back to Cameron. Each PM has been successively worse and Johnson has now just taken corruption and incompetence to the extreme. This country is being dragged to the pits by them, who treat the welfare of an entire nations as little more than a game and suitable collateral damage as they aim to enrich themselves.

Yeah data pretty much says it's been bad since Tories took over with Lib Dems and got worse under a sole conservative government.

Edit: was speaking with my mum today and she basically summed it up. The current government are just going from one fire to the next with no thought to any kind of long term plan.
 
It's the success of the arrangement that frightens the DUP and Brexiteers most. The irony of their position is that the desire for a united Ireland in the South is receding more each year as the realisation of the economic and societal cost of a united Ireland becomes clearer. Throw in the fact that most young people who make up a large part of the voters really have no emotional attachment to the concept and I would say that a vote for reunification in the South would struggle to pass at the moment, especially as the enormous economic consequences become apparent.

The current agreed protocol I gather is light years away from the deal Theresa May had in summer of... 2018 was it? The one the DUP originally agreed to on Friday, but over the weekend after meetings with the UDA and Orange Order rejected it on the Monday.

That deal would probably have ensured NI for another 100 years - the economic benefits of feet in both camps far outweighed the benefits of a UI.


Now? As it currently sits, a UI would deliver far more for both NI and ROI. The issues against:
- proportion of public service employees here. Most of them employed doing f*k all of value. Would need a long handover between UK & ROI. Prob similar to Hong Kong.
- what will the loyalist hardcores do. Will be trouble on the streets. Will they f**k off to Scotland where most of their ancestry is? [Which may also secede from UK!] Or do they go to England where they will be universally unwanted.
 
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There is obviously no right or wrong answer and I know many of the examples, short of Northern Ireland, are realistically unlikely. It's more about questioning just where someone draws the line. I find that people who argue for independence or some form of self determination at one level nearly always refuse it being taken one step further (eg the Scots would think that splitting from the UK is a viable form of self-determination but highlands splitting from the lowlands isn't). Go back in history far enough and the highlands had an identity that was distinct from the lowlands and in an independent Scotland there is nothing to say that highlanders may not feel they get a raw deal and think actually most of the oil would be in highlander rather than lowlander waters for example.

It also begs the question of what constitutes a unique identity. Scots may define themselves as unique form the English but imagine you took some random Scots and random English, didn't allow them to discuss anything specifically involving their country and hid their accents, would the really be able to tell who was Scottish and who wasn't without making some comment intrinsically linked to nationality? Could they point to how their lives, culture, world view, loves, hates etc etc are so fundamentally different as to define themselves as a separate people? NOTE I do think the Scots are distinct from the English but usually it's just asserted as such without any real justification why, just that it is.

Put them in a room and the Scots could tell the English they haven't voted Tory or supported right wing Tory policies for over 50 years. Anyone that blushed would likely be English. :p

I think equating a country with a population of 5 million with the Highlands (population around 200,000?) is not entirely viable. I've also yet to witness an example of bad things happening as a result of a small nation state getting the right to self-determination (without external interference). What is wrong with the concept of various states in a loose confederation?
 
Put them in a room and the Scots could tell the English they haven't voted Tory or supported right wing Tory policies for over 50 years. Anyone that blushed would likely be English. :p

I think equating a country with a population of 5 million with the Highlands (population around 200,000?) is not entirely viable. I've also yet to witness an example of bad things happening as a result of a small nation state getting the right to self-determination (without external interference). What is wrong with the concept of various states in a loose confederation?
This is kinda what I'm getting at, who determines at what point it is or isn't viable? A population of 200,000 ish would put the highlands at the same level as the likes of Samoa. Is Samoa not viable as a nation?

Bad things don't happen as a result of a small nation getting the right to self determination, bad things happen when larger nations trample over those smaller nations. Divide and conquer exists for a reason. Nobody would dare take on the USA as all the states are pulling together on foreign policy, whether they like it or not. Now if the USA was split into 50 states, each as sovereign nations in a loose confederation akin to the EU or even looser, do you think nations like China would bat an eyelid at bullying any individual state? With that guaranteed united, single front gone, they can single out smaller nations and hit them hard. This is why I say it's a pipe dream. In an ideal world where everyone played nice then yes, a series of small nations loosely aligned within a confederation of other ideologically similar nations would be fine but it's not an ideal world and big nations will bully smaller nations. The idea of breaking nations down into smaller and smaller self governing constituent parts goes hand in hand with the acceptance that you have little to no defence against aggressive foreign powers short of re-aligning yourself with other bigger powers, often at the cost of self-determination.

For example the EU is heading to more and more centralisation. An independent Scotland could rejoin the EU and in half a century find it is in a federation with even less say over the direction the whole is taking than it did in the UK. If you think the wishes of Scotland are too often ignored when it makes up 8.2% of the population, think how it will be when it makes up 1% of the population and is even more geographically remote.
 


Is this typical attitude of elderly white GOP Trump supporters in USA?
 
https://www.irishtimes.com/world/eu...date-status-backing-from-european-commission/

The supposed function of Putin's invasion has totally backfired.

And "strategically lost" the war for little gain.
 
Even Japan is attending the NATO summit for the first time in history

Edit: South Korea, too
 

After a decade of wage stagnation and people seeing wages decrease in real terms by up to 20%, they are now advising that wages should not rise to match inflation that itself is not being driven by wage rises...

This lot are ******* unbelievable. So the people of this country are to just continue getting hit as those at the top give themselves rises? If this carries on we could see the nation descending into mass strikes as people get fed up with the haves massively taking the ****. At the first sign of your average person potentially facing the chance to simply not lose out but merely keep up with the cost of living, they are jumping in telling us peasants to know our place. This **** is unacceptable. I can say at my work I will definitely be pushing for at least inflation equalling pay rise and will be seriously considering whether I want to stay if they play silly buggers.

As a 30 year old, my entire working life has just been is lurching from crisis to crisis. 2007 collapse, brexit, COVID and now invasion of Ukraine and high inflation. None of these issues caused by my generation and yet there are more than a few condescending boomers (usually) who think it's just avocado toast, Netflix and poor work ethic that is making stuff so hard for millennials and after. It would be nice to just have a few years of genuine prosperity to enjoy, but apparently wanting that makes you "entitled".
 
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Yeah, the dopey cnuts don't seem to get it. The price of goods has spiked because of material costs, not wages.

Now wages will have to jump to a point where they are roughly a similar proportion of the overall price as they were. There will be a bit of a feedback mechanism there, undoubtedly.. But it's as I said - proportionality needs to be restored.

(i.e if the price of bread has jumped by 50% because of grain, fertiliser and electric - and before this farmers/bakers/shopkeepers salaries accounted for approx half the cost of a loaf - then salaries would need to jump by the same 50% to restore proportionality)
 
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