Argentina RWC Preview

[Melhor Time]

Preview posted yesterday on rugbymania: http://www.rugbymania.com.br/2009/ver_noticia08.asp?codigo=4413

Suggested XV
15 Martín Rodríguez Gurruchaga (Stade Français, France)
14 Gonzalo Camacho (Exeter Chiefs, England)
13 Gonzalo Tiesi (Stade Français, France)
12 Felipe Contepomi (Stade Français, France)
11 Horacio Agulla (Leicester Tigers, England)
10 Juan Martín Hernández (Racing Metro, France)
9 Agustín Figuerola (Brive, France)
8 Juan Leguizamón (Lyon, France)
7 Alvaro Galindo (Racing Metro, France)
6 Juan Martín Fernández Lobbe (Toulon, France)
5 Patricio Albacete (Toulouse, France)
4 Manuel Carizza (Biarritz, France)
3 Martín Scelzo (Agen, France)
2 Mario Ledesma (Clermont, France)
1 Marcos Ayerza (Leicester Tigers, England)

16 Agustín Creevy (Montpellier, France)*
17 Rodrigo Roncero (Stade Français, France)
18 Juan Figallo (Montpellier, France)
19 Mariano Galarza (Leinster, Ireland) *
20 Leonardo Senatore (GER Rosario) *
21 Nicolas Vergallo (Toulouse, France)
22 Santiago Fernández (Montpellier, France)

Additional Squad members: 23 Maximilano Bustos (Montpellier, France)*, 24 Tomás Vallejos (Harlequins, England), 25 Genaro Fessia (Córdoba Athletic)*, 26 Alejandro Campos (Agen, France), 27 Alfredo Lalanne (London Irish, England), 28 Marcelo Bosch (Biarritz, France), 29 Lucas González Amorosino (Montpellier, France), 30 Martín Bustos Moyano (Montpellier, France)

* Players from Los Pampas XV who participated in and won South Africa´s Vodacom Cup in 2011.

- If JMH is not fit to face England in the first RWC match then Santiago Fernández would be flyhalf with Marcelo Bosch taking his place on the bench.

Players to Look out for: Patricio Albacete, Felipe Contepomi, Juan Martín Hernández, Juan Martín Fernández Lobbe, Juan Leguizamón and Martín Scelzo

Others who could impress: Horacio Agulla, Marcos Ayerza, Juan Figallo, Gonzalo Camacho, Martín Rodríguez Gurruchaga and Gonzalo Tiesi

Preview
Can Argentina be World champions? Yes.

Los Pumas of Argenitna gave the world a massive wake up call on September 07, 2007 with a 17-12 victory over France to opn Rugby World Cup 2007. It was an unforgettable match in which the South Americans made it clear that Argentina is a force in global rugby. But the result was not a big surprize. The truth is that the better team won, just like when Argentina defeated France in Marseilles in 2004, did so two times in Buenos Aires in 2003 and lost by one point (27-26) in Paris in 2006. The players were professionals, and big match performers. At the time only one starting player, Horacio Agulla, played his rugby in Argentina. Big European clubs that Pumas in their starting lineups. For instance, in 2007, the English champion, the Leicester Tigers, had Marcos Ayerza starting the final at loosehead prop. The Top 14 Final between Stade Français and Clermont had Agustín Pichot as captain and scrumhalf, Juan Martín Hernández at flyhalf, Rodrigo Roncero at loosehead prop and Pedro Ledesma and tighthead prop. Martín Scelzo was tighthead prop for Clermont and Mario Ledesma was hooker. In other words, three of the four props were from Argentina in the French Final and one also featured in the English final. Despite this, two of these players did not play vs France in the RWC 2007 game. It was simply a case of everything being set up for Argentina to knock-over France as the side had great players across the park but lacked the respect of the rugby world.

[video=dailymotion;x8v89n]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8v89n_rugby-stade-francais-clermont-final_sport#from=embediframe[/video]

The results since RWC 2007 have not been so positivefor Los Pumas, but it is not possible to analyze the level of the team in 2011 going off the results since 2007 because Argentina has not played a single match with its best XV together. On no occassion have the best players all been avaliable and many have been injured. The best 10-12 combination from France 2007 was Juan Martín Hernández and Felipe Contepomi. They have only played together twice since 2007. Argentina had to face Ireland, England, Wales and Scotland without both players in 2008 and 2009 in Europe. Similar things took place in other areas of the game. Argentina was without two of its starting players for the backrow for the 2009 tour of Europe. Juan Leguizamón also missed the 2010 tour. With so many problems, the coach, Santiago Phelan, experiented significantly with amateur players. The likes of Gonzalo Camacho, Alejandro Campos, Santiago Fernández, Agustín Figuerola, Juan Figallo, Martín Rodriguez Gurruchaga, Horacio San Martín e Nicolas Vergallo all got signed to play in Europe and as such they are not simply better players now, but are also playing with regularity at a superior levela against the best European players.

Curiously Argentina has more options today than in 2007. There are more players getting significant game time for big European clubs. The problem, aside from missing injured players, is that the clubs don´t always release players. It is a serious problem that continues to this day. Argentina had two matches against the French Barbarians in June but Premier Rugby (England) did not release players for the matches. Horacio Agulla, Marcos Ayerza, Tomás Vallejos Cinalli and Ignacio Mieres all missed the matches. Players from Clermont, Montpellier, Racing-Metrô and Toulouse also did not play because of the Top 14 Semi Finals and Final taking place.

Argentina doens´t simply have more pro players today, but also has more players in big teams. In the suggested XV there is Gonzalo Camacho who scored the only try of the 2011 Amlin Challenge Cup Final in which the Harlequins defeated Stade Français. Martín Rodriguez Gurruchaga kicked a 45 metre drop goal in the same match. Rodrigo Roncero and Juan Leguizamón also played. Gonzalo Tiesi missed the game through injury. Horacio Agulla and Marcos Ayerza were starters for Leicester in the Aviva Premiership Final. Mario Ledesma, Martín Scelzo, Patricio Albacete, Alvaro Galindo, Juan Figallo, Santiago Fernández and Martín Bustos Moyano started in Top 14 Orange Semi Finals. Fernández scored a try in the semi final vs Racing-Metrô and Martín Bustos Moyano kicked 15 points. In addition to some players already mentioned, Juan Fernández Lobbe and Marcelo Bosch started in Heineken Cup Quarter Finals. Felipe Contepomi left Leinster to play for Toulon (in 2011-12 he´ll be at Stade Français). In the 2007-2008, Leinster won the Magners League (now known as the RaboDirect Pro 12) and in 2008-2009, Contepomi was the highest points scorer in the League. For Argentina it really is an impressiev list of players and is, in general, stronger than that of 2007. Of the starting XV from 2007, centre Manuel Contepomi played for Rovigo (Italy), backrower Lucas Ostiglia played for Agen who was relegated to the Pro D2 and Agulla played in Argentina. In 2011, for Los Pumas, there are two things missing - time together and Agustín Pichot.

As in the case of France, a lot will depend on the coaches strategy. Argentina can play running rugby or base rugby. Sicne France 2007, coach Santiago Phelan has utilized both options and has had more success when usign more width. Argentina has experienced players together with new players. The frontrow was aged in 2007 but the three starting players vs France are still in the team! In 2010, in Argentina´s win over France in Buenos Aires, Phelan went for two props on the bench and thus five forwards but only two backs. The move worked and in my opinion, Argentina should continue with this strategy. Roncero and Scelzo are great players but they cannot last 80 minutes. It would be ideal to have both on the field with the option of having cover on the bench. I suggest playing Scelzo at tighthead prop with Juan Figallo on the bench to enter after around 50 minutes. I would like him to start with Marcos Ayerza rather than Rodrigo Roncero. The reason being that Ayerza is better in the scrum, a crucial area agaisnt all opposition in Pool B.

Since 2007, Patricio Albacete has continued being the best secondrower in the Top 14 and in the Heineken Cup. Juan Fernández Lobbe was one of three players nominated for 2010 player of the year, in France. Other examples exist but what is important is knowing how to use them together. Playing Agustín Figuerola at scrumhalf over Nicolas Vergallo would be a wise move because Figuerola is more dynamic and Vergallo is better for a tight match. Figuerola came through the ranks in Buenos Aires playing for Club Atlético San Isidro (CASI), just like Pichot, and has already been considered “El Nuevo Pichot†by some experts. Figuerola´s style could combine very well with the backs eho will have a lot more speed and in general be more dangerous than the backs from 2007.

Curiously, there are more backs playing for big European clubs today than in 2007, but the quanity of forwards is much the same. This change demonstrates the evolution of Argentine rugby that was historically known for playing “10-man rugbyâ€. In the 2010-2011 Top 14, 12 of the 14 teams had Argentine players and 9 of these teams had Pumas backs. Next season will feature even more Argentine players, with for example, hooker Agustín Creevy, tighthead prop Maximilano Bustos and Lucas Gonzalez Amorosino all joining Montpellier, Rafael Carballo will play for Bordeaux-Begles and others who will not make the World Cup squad have also signed to play in the Top 14. Phelan´s challenge is to combine the force of the forwards with the talent of the backs to produce a dynamic game. The Pumas wingers are better now than previously and the back threeare from big clubs and were all successful Pumas Rugby Sevens players. It is the same in general when viewing the reserves and additional squad members for wing and fullback.

Argentina is in Pool B together with England, Geórgia, Romania and Scotland. It is the Group of Death with three powerhouse teams but only two of which will advance to the Quarter Finals. Argentina hasn´t played against Romania since Rugby World Cup 2003. Los Pumas won that game 50-3 and it was the only match between the countries in the history of the Rugby World Cup. Argentina has won all the six other matches dating back to 1973. The most even contest occured in 1992 when Argentina won 21-18 in Bucharest. There has only ever been one international test match between Argentina and Georgia and it took place in Lyon during France 2007. The Lelos defended very well and took it to the South Americans up front. In the end Argentina scored a four try bonus point victory but it was tougher than the 33-3 scoreline suggests. In total there have been 16 matches betwwen Argentina and England, with Argentina winning four, England 10 and on two occasions the matches were drawn. There has only ever been one clash between them at Rugby World Cup´s. In 1995 England defeated Argentina 24-18 in a highly competitive match. In the three matches between the sides since Rugby World Cup 2007 England have won two and Argentina one. The homeside winning every time. Against Scotland, Argentina have won 8 of the 12 matches played. There has only ever been one match between the sides at a Rugby World Cup with Argentina winning 19-13 in Paris in the 2007 Quarter Finals. Since 2007 Scotland has defeated Argentine three times while Argentina has defeated Scotland twice during the same period. I do not think it is just to consider the results as proff because Argentina played without a larger number of first coice players who were unavaliable but who will be avaliable for the World Cup.

Prediction
Argentina will have success in the Rugby World Cup. Los Pumas will defeat Romania, Scotland and Georgia in pool play which will see Argentina advance to the Quarter FInals to face either France or New Zealand. Argentina´s key match, however, will be the first one, vs England in Dunedin. England is going through a highly successful run and is playign very well. The winner of this match will win the group, but there is no advantage in winning the group as regardless of finish in first or second the Quarter Final will be tough. England should defeat Argentina in the match. If indeed this happens, Argentina would probably go up against New Zealand in the Quarter Finals in Auckland. Los Pumas could defeat the All Blacks, without question. It is a myth to suggest that New Zealand is invincible, as the history of Rugby World Cup´s clearly demonstrates. If Argentina were to win its Quarter Final, it could win the World Cup and the experience of 2007 will greatly help the players.

Not all, but almost all teams that reach the Quarter Finals could be World Champion. Argentina is one of these that could. The players are of the elite level and they go out to win every match that they play. If Phelan can come up with a good strategy which combines Argentina´s best points then there would be no reason to say that Los Pumas can´t go far in the World Cup and even win it.

 

[psychic duck]

Can Argentina be World champions? Yes.

I'm sorry, but they will not be world champions, they play like a poor man's South Africa at the moment, really poor in November and against Scotland in 2010

The best 10-12 combination from France 2007 was Juan Martín Hernández and Felipe Contepomi. They have only played together twice since 2007. Argentina had to face Ireland, England, Wales and Scotland without both players in 2008 and 2009 in Europe.

And that 10-12 combination looks unlikely to be rekindled, and Hernández in all honesty the few times he did play for Racing-Métro last season he looked rusty and didn't reach top form, even if he does play he won't necessarily be on top form, you're hypothesizing that if he's there he will be straight back into top form

Curiously Argentina has more options today than in 2007. There are more players getting significant game time for big European clubs. The problem, aside from missing injured players, is that the clubs don´t always release players. It is a serious problem that continues to this day. Argentina had two matches against the French Barbarians in June but Premier Rugby (England) did not release players for the matches. Horacio Agulla, Marcos Ayerza, Tomás Vallejos Cinalli and Ignacio Mieres all missed the matches. Players from Clermont, Montpellier, Racing-Metrô and Toulouse also did not play because of the Top 14 Semi Finals and Final taking place.

plus the Stade Français players from the Amlin Cup final, and Montpellier and Stade Français are the two biggest French bases for Pumas players, plus they were experimenting

not too much can be read into by the results there

Martín Rodriguez Gurruchaga kicked a 45 metre drop goal in the same match.

Also wasted possession attempting about three stupid missed long range drop goals

Argentina can play running rugby or base rugby. Sicne France 2007, coach Santiago Phelan has utilized both options and has had more success when usign more width. Argentina has experienced players together with new players.

I disagree here, Argentina's backline was pathetic against Ireland, they just passed from one touchline to the other going nowhere until somebody (normally Bosch) dropped the ball, and they hardly scored many tries against France and England in their other matches either

the backline wasn't great when I saw it against Wales and Scotland back in 2009 too

the only match I can think of where the Pumas scored some good backline tries was against France in 2010 (which followed two other poor backline performances against Scotland). Melhor, can you tell me what went well in that match and why whatever did go well appears to have been a one off performance, and that form not been seen in the November tests 2009 against Scotland in 2010 or the November tests in 2010

I would like him to start with Marcos Ayerza rather than Rodrigo Roncero. The reason being that Ayerza is better in the scrum, a crucial area agaisnt all opposition in Pool B.

Roncero is still arguably the best scrummaging loosehead, did well last season whenever I saw him play, it's his penalty count that's the problem which could nudge Ayerza to start, but either way they're both going to be in the 22 and play so it doesn't really matter.

Playing Agustín Figuerola at scrumhalf over Nicolas Vergallo would be a wise move because Figuerola is more dynamic and Vergallo is better for a tight match. Figuerola came through the ranks in Buenos Aires playing for Club Atlético San Isidro (CASI), just like Pichot, and has already been considered "El Nuevo Pichot" by some experts. Figuerola´s style could combine very well with the backs eho will have a lot more speed and in general be more dangerous than the backs from 2007.

I agree here, I've read some good reviews on Figuerola, who seems to have been a find for Brive, Phelan just needs to make sure Lalanne is nowhere near the team, really poor in those two Scotland matches in 2010

Argentina will have success in the Rugby World Cup. Los Pumas will defeat Romania, Scotland and Georgia in pool play which will see Argentina advance to the Quarter FInals to face either France or New Zealand. Argentina´s key match, however, will be the first one, vs England in Dunedin. England is going through a highly successful run and is playign very well. The winner of this match will win the group, but there is no advantage in winning the group as regardless of finish in first or second the Quarter Final will be tough. England should defeat Argentina in the match.

I don't know why you are so confident Melhor that Argentina will beat Scotland, as I've said before on this forum that match will be tight and probably come down to penalties so the refereeing of the scrum will be crucial, if the referee (Mark Lawrence then) performs like he did in the Ireland match in November then Scotland should fancy their chances. And Chris Paterson misses few kicks so Contepomi will have to bring his kicking boots. Anyway you make it seem like they are assured of victory, when that will be really close and going by form Scotland defeated Argentina twice away from home so I would just favour Scotland at the minute. The referee for that match by the way will be Craig Joubert, don't know whether he's good or not but southern hemisphere refs tend to be more lenient on the struggling scrum than northern hemisphere which will be bad for the Pumas, but we'll wait and see

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I agree with P.D Argentina won't be up to much at this world cup. Their best player is coming back from long term injury, Contepomi is passed it he's not International standard anymore and the team is a bad mix of too old or too inexperienced. It could be a good*opportunity*to build a team for the Quad Nations if they choose to.

 

[Shaggy]

I guess Argentina are a bit of an unknown quantity, and yes, they might beat Scotland, and qualify for the quarter finals, and yes, the All Blacks have been beaten before, and could be beaten again, but, I don't think the All Blacks will underestimate the Pumas, Scotland, or England, and they are playing at home, so i'd say the odds are firmly in the All Blacks favour.

Do the Pumas have any games together pre world cup, if not they could go in a little rusty, and take a bit of time to establish combinations

 

[Melhor Time]

psychic duck

I´ve been wrong before and will be again. I´ve also been right and even spot on as in 2007. I even picked Argentina to win vs France by 5 points and Ireland be average. It wasn´t so popular hereon this forum. The reason I say this is your post is probably what the majority think. Going off Argentina´s performances there is little to say they can win the RWC but this perspective ignores some vastly important things in preference of jumping on a few examples and ignore others.

1. Suggesting Argentina were really poor in November and against Scotland in 2010 is fine but what about the game vs France? As poor as Argentina were they were not a poor mans South Africa. The Springboks lost over the past 2 weekends conceeding plenty of tries. Argentina were poor, as you say, in november but South Africa conceeded more tries vs New Zealand on Saturday than Argentina did in all matches in 2010. Ireland smashed Argentina in november, were far better but scored only 2 tries. Scotland defeated Argentina in 2010 in two games scoring a totla of one try. France defeated Argentina in november scoring zero tries.

The conclusion is not that Argentina are old or a poor mans South Africa. Springboks fans would love to conceede 2 tries or less per game. Rather what this shows is Argentina have issues with discipline and are conceeding too many points through penalties. Getting Ayerza in there from the start over Roncero is, among other things, an example of a player who conceeds far less penalties.

2. Of course Hernández needs game time. Thats a given. I doubt he´ll make the English match and could well miss the entire RWC. Thats why Nicolas Sanchez and Marcelo Bosch are both in the training squad. If Hernández is selected it means he is (a) fit and (b) performing very well in training. Patricio Albacete let the cat out of the bag in a recent interview. When asked if a JMH at 80% is better than most players at 100% he said that nobody, including JMH, will go to the RWC without being 100% and that the selectors had made this clear.

3. Your argument about Montpellier and Stade Français is not strong. They have loads of Pumas and the players did well. Its a sign that the form of the players is good even if the form of the national team has not been so flash, ala in november. It underlines what I am getting at: Argentina lack time together and will be a different prospect altogether at the World Cup having finally been able to train together as a unit. Moreover, lets ignore Leinster´s success in the Heineken Cup because they experimented with players in differnt positions like McFaddyn and O´Brian who will be at the RWC. Suggesting that not much can be read by the results of teams with Pumas doing well is the same as saying this about Leinster. Both mentioned Leinster players did very well.

4. The SF strategy of drop goals is a SF thing not an Argentine thing. Its a tactic from the coaches, very often a demand. Players are under orders... remember.

5. Argentina actually conceeded fewer tries than any other side in 2010... see below. Not having 3N, 6N or even Pacific Nations Cup Rugby means viewers already have a limited view of Argentina and thus form opinions after seeing far less rugby involving the players. So many Kiwis say Tony Woodcock is one of the best loosehead props around. There would not be a place for him in Argentina´s World Cup squad. Ayerza, Roncero and Figallo are all better players. yet ask kiwis who these three are. They´ll struggle to say they play for Argentina and to name their clubs.

6. Watching Ireland vs Argentina and seeing the Irish dominate yet only score two tries... its needs to be analyzed carefully. Do you think Argentina will play that way at the World Cup? Personally I doubt it. Not being able to train frequently, yet at all, and not having the best players for the matches is highly complicated. Phelan had Argentina play the way they did vs France in June 2010 with the intention of doing the same with the missing players back. Hernández back at 10 and Camacho at 14 for instance. Its been covered in interviews on www.scrum.com.ar

7. Argentina´s backline vs Wales and Scotland in 2009 had no Hernández, no Bosch, no Contepomi, no Camacho, no Carballo and no González Amorosino. They were all injured. They had amateur players wearing the 10 and 12 shirts and a winger playing fullback. From the side that had defeated England in June 2009 the one that faced Wales and Scotland in November was without both wingers, the flyhalf and inside centre. many missing in the pack too. Commuzzi played wing vs Wales. He struggled for Los Pampas.

Shaggy´s question of

Do the Pumas have any games together pre world cup, if not they could go in a little rusty, and take a bit of time to establish combinations

is a very good one. The answer is they play CONSUR XV and Wales in August. He´s hit the nail on the head. i.e. they need time together.

8. The French match in Buenos Aires was a case of a centre running the show at flyhalf and having speedy men working with him. Contepomi was man of the match and scored 30 points. He was wearing 10 but running as a centre. He is a 12 not a 10 and Argentina know this. They intended on playing the same in November but lost Hernández who was to be the 10 and thus went for Contepomi at 10 with Fernández at 12 to keep it simple. They have been training, at long last, different options. Rodríguez at flyhalf has been tried as has Fernández, Bosch and Sánchez. Hopefully this means Contepomi will not be 10. It is probable as cover for 12 is slim with no Horacio San Martín or Miguel Avramovic.

9. Argentina have scored some really good tries with finalist for try of the year in 2009 and 2010. Considering the team has never been the best XV and often closer to being the second than first I think its important to be careful when judging them. Give them time to actually train together and then play. If they are poor vs the CONSUR XV and Wales in August then sure we can have more reason are a no chance at the RWC.

10. Ayerza is definetly better in the scrums than Roncero. Figallo is ahead too. Roncero is the best tackler but terrible with penalties.

11. Assured of victory? Certinaly not. I said this is the Pool of Death and I believe it is. I was clear that England should beat Argentina. Is it assured? Not at all. England could lose to both Argentina and Scotland. England could also win both. Argentina could win both, one or lose both. Scotland likewise. There are a number of scenarios. My view is that the likely scenario is 1. England, 2. Argentina.

I´m confident Argentina will topple Scotland for a number of reasons. Looking at the players of both teams and their form in Europe, Argentina are superior. More players doing well at the top level. Glasgow and Edinburgh had poor seasons. Scottish players in England and France were ordinary. Hines in Ireland and Lamont in Wales were about it for exports. Great performers but Albacete vs Hines is a no brainer. Was Lamont better than Camacho? I don´t think he was. So, simply by following the players from both Argentina and Scotland and, speifically, their form Argentina is heading in the RWC looking superior. Its a guide, and a useful one. You did this yourself in regards to Hernández and Racing Metro. Across the board Pumas players had better seasons than Scottish ones in Europe. They need the same time together that other teams get and this time they are getting more time together. Form players + time togeher = success.

How Scotland play also makes me believe Argentina are stronger. Scotland simply struggle to score tries. They win from kicking penalties regardless of the opposition. Wins vs Australia, South Africa and Argentina since 2007 total to one try. The wins vs Fiji and Samoa were low too. Only one try vs Samoa and two vs Fiji and one of the two vs Fiji was actually not a try. Now then, with this in mind consider the following:

Argentina in 2010 Played 6 tries conceeded 5. Pretty good. Who else has defense like this in their final 6 matches of 2010?

Wales - no.
Ireland - no.
Scotland - no.
Italy - no.
France - no.
England - no.
Australia - no
New Zealand - no
South Africa - no
Fiji - no
USA - no
Canada - no
Tonga - no
Samoa - no
Namibia - no
Georgia - no
Russia - no
Romania - no
Japan - no

There you go - the team with the best defensive record in 2010 was Argentina. no team going into Rugby World Cup 2011 conceeded fewer tries than Argentina in their final 6 matches of 2010. Clearly, despite lacking attack they are defending very well. Argentina have been losing matches despite conceeding few tries. The key has been the players. They have never had the first XV together at all since RWC 2007. The way the 22 players have been performing in 2011 gives me plenty of reason to suggest a Quarter Final spot is on the cards.

 

[Toko_11]

You are pretty confident, But consider this. You have Georgia and Romania in Pool B their chances of beating Argentina are very low but both teams play a physical game. they have huge players who like making spine-shattering tackles so half the Argentinian team might be injured after the group stages. I think Argentina can reach the quarter finals but wont go much further. of course this is just my opinion and reality can be very different

 

[LittleGuy]

I also think that Argentina will defeat Scotland, but it will be a tight encounter, Scotland were on a great run last fall(excpet for the AB game) but what I saw in the six nations really shattered my confidence in the side. Argentina are perhaps the most "unknown" quantity as Shaggy said in international rugby and the warm up matches will be crucial to establishing cohesiveness and a lineup. I can't really see them advancing to the semi's unless they can get a crack at an inconsistent France at this time.

I think that Toko brings up a fantastic point, don't ignore Georgia and to a lesser degree Romania in this pool. these will be physical contests and bonus point wins may not be guarentees this could very much play into advances to the QF's. This pool is really intruiging since the Pumas and Scots can also beat England on the right day, and Georgia can't be counted out to cause a shock result especially against a try starved Scottish side. Romania can also upset Georgia if they can establish supremacy in the forwards.

 

[Darwin]

1. Suggesting Argentina were really poor in November and against Scotland in 2010 is fine but what about the game vs France? As poor as Argentina were they were not a poor mans South Africa. The Springboks lost over the past 2 weekends conceeding plenty of tries. Argentina were poor, as you say, in november but South Africa conceeded more tries vs New Zealand on Saturday than Argentina did in all matches in 2010. Ireland smashed Argentina in november, were far better but scored only 2 tries. Scotland defeated Argentina in 2010 in two games scoring a totla of one try. France defeated Argentina in november scoring zero tries.

The conclusion is not that Argentina are old or a poor mans South Africa. Springboks fans would love to conceede 2 tries or less per game. Rather what this shows is Argentina have issues with discipline and are conceeding too many points through penalties. Getting Ayerza in there from the start over Roncero is, among other things, an example of a player who conceeds far less penalties.

Did an understrength Argentina play the AB's in NZ last year? No. History would suggest that an understrength Argentina team would have conceded at least 6 tries to the AB's, so you statement that "South Africa conceeded more tries vs New Zealand on Saturday than Argentina did in all matches in 2010." is incredibly misleading. If South Africa had Argentina's schedule last year they may well have only conceded 5 tries!

There you go - the team with the best defensive record in 2010 was Argentina. no team going into Rugby World Cup 2011 conceeded fewer tries than Argentina in their final 6 matches of 2010. Clearly, despite lacking attack they are defending very well. Argentina have been losing matches despite conceeding few tries. The key has been the players. They have never had the first XV together at all since RWC 2007. The way the 22 players have been performing in 2011 gives me plenty of reason to suggest a Quarter Final spot is on the cards.

You actually have to look at who Argentina played last year - Scotland twice, Italy, France twice, and Ireland once. As you frequently point out Scotland does not have a good record for scoring tries - indeed they only scored 5 tries in their 10 matches in 2010! If you actually look at who Argentina played you will see they conceded almost exactly the amount of tries you would expect: 1 v Italy (who averaged 0.9 tries per match), 2 v Ireland (who averaged 2.1 tries per match), 1 versus Scotland in two matches (who averaged 0.5 tries per match) - indeed the only team they conceded less than the average tries against was France, whom they only conceded 1 try against in two matches (and France scored an average of 2.0 tries per match in 2010). So while Argentina may have had a good defensive record last year, it has as much to do with the teams they played as it does with their defensive capabilities!

The fact that Argentina only scored 7 tries in 6 matches is also an interesting stat - especially when almost 60% of these tries were scored in a single match!

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Argentina. in 2010 Played 6 tries conceeded 5[/B]. Pretty good. Who else has defense like this in their final 6 matches of 2010?Wales - no.Ireland - no.Scotland - no.Italy - no.France - no.England - no.Australia - noNew Zealand - noSouth Africa - noFiji - noUSA - noCanada - noTonga - noSamoa - noNamibia - noGeorgia - noRussia - noRomania - noJapan - noThere you go - the team with the best defensive record in 2010 was Argentina. no team going into Rugby World Cup 2011 conceeded fewer tries than Argentina in their final 6 matches of 2010. Clearly, despite lacking attack they are defending very well. Argentina have been losing matches despite conceeding few tries. The key has been the players. They have never had the first XV together at all since RWC 2007. The way the 22 players have been performing in 2011 gives me plenty of reason to suggest a Quarter Final spot is on the cards.

Kind of off topic but Ireland have only conceded 4 tries in their last 6 matches. 0 vs Argentina, 1 vs France because of one missed tackle, 1 vs Italy in Irelands worst match since 2008. 1 vs Wales completely illegal. 0 vs Scotland. 1 vs England interception after the game was won. These are against better teams than Fiji and Samoa so do some research before you say Argentina have the best defence in world rugby and stop going back to 07 no one else is using 07 as a reason for their teams doing well at the world cup. It was four years ago and the fact Argentina have a similar team is worrying.

 

[big ginger 8]

Yes Les Kiss (for Ireland) is a great defense coach.

Melhor Time. No offense but I'm sick of you saying JMH is injured. He has been for years you deal with it.

Ireland were also very poor against Argentina which shows how bad they were.

As Darwin said that was a S.A. "B" team. Also while I understand it's a big deal stop naming all the Argentinians who play for "top" sides. All the top nations players play for "top" teams.

 

[LittleGuy]

Also while I understand it's a big deal stop naming all the Argentinians who play for "top" sides. All the top nations players play for "top" teams.

Argentine players usually have to qualify as foreign players, thus their presence on overseas teams represents the high quality of these players that they are a much better option than a possible domestic replacement, same thing for Canadian and American players who have overseas spots they have to be substantially better than the local alternatives or a valuble foreign player spot wouldn't be wasted on them.

 

[Melhor Time]

Toko-11

I look forward to Georgia very much in this group. The frontrow will be impressive as will the backrow. They could indeed tire out Argentina, England and Scotland. None of them can go into the game thinking victory is in the bank.

Darwin

The South Africa example was to show that its pointless judging Argentina´s performances when players involved have been there to replace injured or unavaliable players. They have not been there on merit and thus many of the matches from 2008-2010 are highly problematic when assessing the quality of the team and chances at New Zealand 2011. I would never judge South Africa no its loss to Leicester in November 2009 or to Australia and New Zealand in July 2011 for the same reason - the team was not at full strength and will certainly not be anything like what will take the field at RWC 2011.

The 6 games that show Argentina were the best defensive side in 2011, going off the final 6 games is actually quite reliable. All teams played in november, at least 3 internationals. I could have extended it to niclude matches vs Chile and Uruguay if I actually wanted to be misleading as Argentina not only scored moer tries but they also did not conceede any - something missing from your post.

Cmac95

I´d hardly suggest Argentina have a similar side now than in 2007. My team is 8 new players compared to 2007.

15 Corleto.... Rodríguez
14 Borges.... Camacho
13 M Contepomi... Tiesi
12 F Contepomi
11 Agulla
10 JMH
9 Pichot.......... Figuerola
8 Longo.......... Leguizamón
7 J Fernández Lobbe
6 Ostiglia........ Galindo
5 Albacete
4 I Fernández Lobbe ..... Carizza
3 Scelzo
2 Ledesma
1 Roncero ....... Ayerza

True about Ireland in its last 6 matches but not everybody ahs played in this period, unlike in the period surveryed when every team going to the World Cup played. Ireland has great defense and you´ll get to see what I think about Ireland shortly when I post the preview.

Whether or not others use 2007 is their own judgement call but it is highly important and needs to be mentioned. Argentina is not my team. I am not from Argentina and Spanish is my third language. I played rugby in three countries, none of them are Argentina. I´m just as interested in Canadian and USA rugby as I am Argentina.

Big Ginger 8

O´Driscoll is injrued but will play at the World Cup. JMH is injutred and will likewise play. If your post is to be taken seriously then Ireland should not be considered as having BOD and people should not mention him. The whole point of doing previews is to see how good they are and thus predict their chances, thus mentioning injured players is highly important.

Going off one match performances is highly problematic. If people want to judge Argentina based on the game vs ireland in november then they are fooling themselves. Its the same as judging Ireland on the game vs Italy or Scotland on the 49-3 result vs New Zealand.

Sure, all top nations have players for big teams. The point in mentioning the Pumas the way I did is to highlight the fact that judging Argentina on international form is not constant with how the players have been doing for their European clubs. The players mentioned will be playing at New Zealand 2011 and since most have been impressive for the clubs, against players from other teams who will be at the World Cup, it is clear that the form of the national side which has never been at full strength and has never had time to train together, is not an indicator to use. The 22 players on match day are what matter. In order to have the most accurate understanding possible of how any team will do at the RWC its mandatory to see the players perform and not judge them on just a single match.

If a player can perform well over a long period of time, i.e. a season, then afterall form is temporary, class is permanent, , then he´s a decent player.

 

[psychic duck]

psychic duck

I´ve been wrong before and will be again. I´ve also been right and even spot on as in 2007. I even picked Argentina to win vs France by 5 points and Ireland be average. It wasn´t so popular hereon this forum. The reason I say this is your post is probably what the majority think. Going off Argentina´s performances there is little to say they can win the RWC but this perspective ignores some vastly important things in preference of jumping on a few examples and ignore others.

Argentina are different now compared to the side leading up to 2007 that beat all the 6 nations teams away from home, this side has only beaten Scotland in 2009 and Italy and a France team which had one of their infamous off days (that under strength England team doesn't count)

Argentina were poor, as you say, in november but South Africa conceeded more tries vs New Zealand on Saturday than Argentina did in all matches in 2010. Ireland smashed Argentina in november, were far better but scored only 2 tries. Scotland defeated Argentina in 2010 in two games scoring a totla of one try. France defeated Argentina in november scoring zero tries.

Argentina actually conceeded fewer tries than any other side in 2010There you go - the team with the best defensive record in 2010 was Argentina. no team going into Rugby World Cup 2011 conceeded fewer tries than Argentina in their final 6 matches of 2010. Clearly, despite lacking attack they are defending very well. Argentina have been losing matches despite conceeding few tries. The key has been the players. They have never had the first XV together at all since RWC 2007. The way the 22 players have been performing in 2011 gives me plenty of reason to suggest a Quarter Final spot is on the cards.

Melhor, look at the sides Argentina faced and look at the sides New Zealand, Australia, England and South Africa faced

Argentina didn't face any of the top three nations and played less matches

I bet if you look at the amount tries New Zealand have conceded against Italy, Scotland, France and Ireland it would at least as many and probably less

same with South Africa, and I wasn't comparing Argentina to this current joke of a South Africa side which is noway near their full strength, I was comparing them to the main side that bullied England in November

Your argument about Montpellier and Stade Français is not strong. They have loads of Pumas and the players did well. Its a sign that the form of the players is good even if the form of the national team has not been so flash, ala in november. It underlines what I am getting at: Argentina lack time together and will be a different prospect altogether at the World Cup having finally been able to train together as a unit. Moreover, lets ignore Leinster´s success in the Heineken Cup because they experimented with players in differnt positions like McFaddyn and O´Brian who will be at the RWC. Suggesting that not much can be read by the results of teams with Pumas doing well is the same as saying this about Leinster. Both mentioned Leinster players did very well.

I don't understand what your are talking about here, I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding

I said the side that lost to French Barbarians was missing a lot of players from various clubs and that it wasn't the strongest side

Argentina´s backline vs Wales and Scotland in 2009 had no Hernández, no Bosch, no Contepomi, no Camacho, no Carballo and no González Amorosino. They were all injured. They had amateur players wearing the 10 and 12 shirts and a winger playing fullback. From the side that had defeated England in June 2009 the one that faced Wales and Scotland in November was without both wingers, the flyhalf and inside centre. many missing in the pack too. Commuzzi played wing vs Wales. He struggled for Los Pampas.

Shaggy´s question of is a very good one. The answer is they play CONSUR XV and Wales in August. He´s hit the nail on the head. i.e. they need time together.

The French match in Buenos Aires was a case of a centre running the show at flyhalf and having speedy men working with him. Contepomi was man of the match and scored 30 points. He was wearing 10 but running as a centre. He is a 12 not a 10 and Argentina know this. They intended on playing the same in November but lost Hernández who was to be the 10 and thus went for Contepomi at 10 with Fernández at 12 to keep it simple. They have been training, at long last, different options. Rodríguez at flyhalf has been tried as has Fernández, Bosch and Sánchez. Hopefully this means Contepomi will not be 10. It is probable as cover for 12 is slim with no Horacio San Martín or Miguel Avramovic.

I feel you keep making excuses for Argentina's poor performances, in 2009 the absence of Bosch, Camacho and Carballo was not the reason they played poorly, in fact those players aren't even certainties for the team, from what you are saying Argentina are relying on Hernández being fit and his fitness has continually let them down over the past four years, I think they need to look beyond him, and the fact other options are being tried is very good news, and I heard Sánchez did well in the experimental XV against the French Barbarians this summer.

Regarding time together, Argentina are only playing five matches a year is stupid, I agree with Pichot (who always has a go at the UAR board for being slow to promote professionalism in Argentina) they need a professional system in Argentina and need it now, due to time zones playing week in week out in Super Rugby won't work for Argentina (it barely works as it is) so I think the southern hemisphere system should be more like the European system, with clubs playing pro leagues with a Heieneken Cup style competition between all the nations

The Rugby World always seem to be slow in promoting new countries to major competitions a similar thing happened with Italy

Ayerza is definetly better in the scrums than Roncero. Figallo is ahead too. Roncero is the best tackler but terrible with penalties.

I disagree here, Roncero is at least as good if not better scrummager, agree regarding penalties though

I´m confident Argentina will topple Scotland for a number of reasons. Looking at the players of both teams and their form in Europe, Argentina are superior. More players doing well at the top level. Glasgow and Edinburgh had poor seasons. Scottish players in England and France were ordinary. Hines in Ireland and Lamont in Wales were about it for exports. Great performers but Albacete vs Hines is a no brainer. Was Lamont better than Camacho? I don´t think he was. So, simply by following the players from both Argentina and Scotland and, speifically, their form Argentina is heading in the RWC looking superior. Its a guide, and a useful one. You did this yourself in regards to Hernández and Racing Metro. Across the board Pumas players had better seasons than Scottish ones in Europe. They need the same time together that other teams get and this time they are getting more time together. Form players + time togeher = success.

How Scotland play also makes me believe Argentina are stronger. Scotland simply struggle to score tries. They win from kicking penalties regardless of the opposition. Wins vs Australia, South Africa and Argentina since 2007 total to one try. The wins vs Fiji and Samoa were low too. Only one try vs Samoa and two vs Fiji and one of the two vs Fiji was actually not a try.

I've said this before that Scotland Argentina match will come down to Craig Joubert's interpreatation of the scrum, if he's like Lawrence in November against Ireland and favours the worse scrum Scotland will have the advantage, but Argentina should win if their front row gets penalties by butchering Scotland's poor props

Yes Scotland are rubbish at scoring tries, but Argentina aren't great either and Scotland have good defense, that match will be decided on penalties I'm sure, although I'm 50-50 of which way it will go

and I think your over rating Camacho, he's good, but not as good as you are building him up to be

 

[Melhor Time]

Psychic Duck,

Nice response. We´ll only know who is right when the World Cup starts and Argentina take on England in Dunedin. In your view Argentina are pretty average as they have not performed good enough in the years since France 2007. I agree that they´ve, at times been, aweful. But if I am right about the players individually doing well then they can certainly go far in the tournament.

I did the same in judging Fiji and Samoa and really there is a huge difference between Argentina and these teams in not only how many are playing regularly but how they are playing. Of the wingers going to RWC 2011 Argentina is just as good and even slightly better than Fiji and Samoa in Europe this season. Thats utterly revolutionary and certainly enables me to place confidence in the team.

I should be clear about Camacho as an example. I don´t mean to say he is amonsgt the best wingers in European rugby or world rugby. I think he´s really good and had a great two years for the Harlequins, especially in 2010-2011 but there is little more to be said as he hasn´t played enough internationally due to Argentina´s lack of matches. Considering Argentina have 5 or 6 matches a year only and then have missed so many players for these games its really tough to judge them. The back-three look really good to me. In addition to Camacho, Martín Bustos Moyano has made a name for himself with Montpellier, Horacio Agulla has improved at Leicester and Lucas González Amorosino is a great talent that Leicester wasted. Martín Rodríguez Gurruchaga performed well in Paris. These are the players that will be the back-three at the RWC. Now look back to 2007 when Argentina took Lucas Borges, Horacio Agulla, Federico Martín Aramburu, Hernan Senillosa, Ignacio Corleto and Federico Serra as the back-three players. The difference is huge. Firstly, all of them are European professionals now. Secondly, the 2011 group are playing much more than the 2007 group and thirdly the group is simply much better now.

I was rewatching some matches recently and some of the players playing for Argentina are third choice players at best. Wales vs Argentina at 2009 had two wingers outside of the five back-three players I just mentioned. there were two backrowers and a secondrower who did not make the Argentine training squad of 48 players in the starting XV two and the flyhalf and inside centre were amateurs.... Much the same vs Scotland the following week just swap a few players who wont playa t the RWC with a few others who also won´t like Comuzzi for Aramburu. The team, in other words, was far from what will take the field in the RWC.

About Super Rugby... seriously the concept is poor. Compare Perpignan vs Toulon in Barcelona to Crusadres vs Sharks in Nelson. People have said the Heineken Cup sux because it breaks all the time to return to the domestic competitions but I think its actually much better this way. The Super Rugby Final should be in October, two weeks before the first Saturday of November to enable the teams tiem to select and prepare for the European tours.

Also I can´t believe the ITM Cup. Its got no crowds of note and the players are not All Blacks and many not even Super Rugby players. Its pretty clear that New Zealand has been screwed over by Super Rugby. They should, along with South Africa, lobby to change it so it is similar to the Heineken Cup. On Australia benefits from the current format. I guarantee that if it were altered interest in New Zealand´s ITM Cup would be far bigger.

 

[Melhor Time]

Squad to be named

Phelan wil confirm Argentina´s squad on Tuesday and I got word from a guy in the know in Buenos Aires that JMH is out of the RWC.

Phelan is going to play Felipe Contepomi at 10 and Santi Fernández at 12.

Nicolás Sánchez will be in the squad as will uncapped winger Juan Imhoff

 

[psychic duck]

so the Contepomi at 12 and Sanchez/Rodriguez/Fernandez at 10 idea has been ditched?

shame about JMH but inevitable really

AWESOME to hear Juan Imhoff will be in the squad, I think he has a lot of potential

the Argentina v Wales match will be a big litmus test for the side and if they can win that they should enter the tournament with confidence and I would back them to reach the QF's, there was nothing the Pumas need to fear from Scotland's performance on Saturday

Melhor do you know the exact 30 man squad? If so can you confirm Bustos Moyano in it? With Imhoff in the squad I'm guessing Gosio, Carballo and either Borges or Bustos Moyano will miss out

 

[Melhor Time]

so the Contepomi at 12 and Sanchez/Rodriguez/Fernandez at 10 idea has been ditched?

shame about JMH but inevitable really

AWESOME to hear Juan Imhoff will be in the squad, I think he has a lot of potential

the Argentina v Wales match will be a big litmus test for the side and if they can win that they should enter the tournament with confidence and I would back them to reach the QF's, there was nothing the Pumas need to fear from Scotland's performance on Saturday

Melhor do you know the exact 30 man squad? If so can you confirm Bustos Moyano in it? With Imhoff in the squad I'm guessing Gosio, Carballo and either Borges or Bustos Moyano will miss out

The word is 17 forwards and 13 backs. 2 hookers and 5 props. 2 scrumhalves. The JMH decision is going on right now but the Racing Metro doctors say there is no way he can play vs England. Phelan is thus deciding on to take him and rest him for the Scotland match or take Sánchez instead.

Rodríguez being the third flyhalf and probable starter at 10 vs Georgia in the final pool match. He´s also going to cover 12 (like Contepomi) and Agulla to cover 13 and 15.

Forwards
Hookers (2) - Ledesma and Creevy
Props (5) - Roncero, Ayerza, Figallo, Bustos and Scelzo
Secondrow (4) - Albacete, Carizza, Galarza and Guzmán
Backrow (6) - Leguizamón, Fernández Lobbe, Farias, Senatore, Galindo and Fessia

Backs
Scrumhalf (2) - Vergallo, Figuerola
Flyhalf (2) - Contepomi, Sánchez
Inside centre (1) - Fernández
Oustide centre (2) - Bosch, Tiesi
Wing (4) - Agulla, Bustos Moyano, Camacho, Imhoff
Fullback (2) - Rodríguez, Amorosino

I´m pretty happy but not entirely. Its a squad to play the Los Pampas XV style but with better players.

 

[ZeFrenchy]

Looks good, bar JMH's missing out. Do you know if any of the props can play hooker? It seems kind of risky to take only two.

 

[ZeFrenchy]

The word is 17 forwards and 13 backs. 2 hookers and 5 props. 2 scrumhalves. The JMH decision is going on right now but the Racing Metro doctors say there is no way he can play vs England. Phelan is thus deciding on to take him and rest him for the Scotland match or take Sánchez instead.

Rodríguez being the third flyhalf and probable starter at 10 vs Georgia in the final pool match. He´s also going to cover 12 (like Contepomi) and Agulla to cover 13 and 15.

Forwards
Hookers (2) - Ledesma and Creevy
Props (5) - Roncero, Ayerza, Figallo, Bustos and Scelzo
Secondrow (4) - Albacete, Carizza, Galarza and Vallejos
Backrow (6) - Leguizamón, Fernández Lobbe, Farias, Senatore, Galindo and Campos

Backs
Scrumhalf (2) - Vergallo, Lalanne
Flyhalf (2) - Contepomi, Sánchez
Inside centre (1) - Fernández
Oustide centre (2) - Bosch, Tiesi
Wing (4) - Agulla, Gosio, Camacho, Imhoff
Fullback (2) - Rodríguez, Amorosino

I´m pretty happy but not entirely. Its a squad to play the Los Pampas XV style but with better players.

Squad confirmed, with the changes from your prediction in bold: Odd to see Bustos Moyano to be left out tbh...

 

[Melhor Time]

Merci ZeFrenchy

Martín Bustos Moyano was left out due to speed. Only three wingers have been picked and two fullbacks. All fast players that were former Sevens Stars. The Argentine teams that was second in the World Cup in 2009 behind Wales has many players in this squad like Camacho, Gonzalez Amorosino and Rodríguez Gurruchaga. They also won the USA Sevens the same year. They´ve been picked to do damage. Argentina are going to attack up the middle with the speedmen. A good move vs England and Scotland I would think. It also makes sense why the´ve gone for the likes of Farias and Senatore - workrate players who are great defenders. Leguizamon will be a genuine wing forward.

I´m not happy with Figuerola missing out but am still extremely sad for Hernández. Contepomi at 10 is not the way to go but still I´d rather him than Toby Flood or Dan Parks without question.

I posted about the squad just now on my site: http://rugbyworldcup-argentina2023.blogspot.com/2011/08/30-pumas-for-rugby-world-cup-2011.html
_________________________________________________________________________________

Argentina international rugby headcoach, Santiago Phelan has confirmed his list of 30 players for Rugby World Cup 2011. The squad contains six players based in Argentina, five in England and nineteen based in France. All foreign based players play for Aviva Premiership and Top 14 teams. The squad includes a number of surprizes with some regular players over the period of 2008-2011 missing out on selection. Names such as Rafael Carballo, Genaro Fessia, Agustín Figuerola and Lucas Borges have not made the cut. At the same time there are places for a number of players who have not featured so much at all. Players such as Nicolás Sánchez, Maximiliano Bustos, Tomás Vallejos Cinalli, Agustín Gosio and Juan Imhoff have all been included despite only debuting for Argentina this year. Their selection underlines the success of Los Pampas XV in South Africa´s Vodacom Cup this year as four of the five players were involved in the campaign. The star of Montpellier, Martín Bustos Moyano, has surprizingly missed out. His place has gone to the young Juan Imhoff who was the top try scorer in the Vodacom Cup as he showed tremendous pace. Bustos Moyano dmissed Saturday´s Argentina vs CONSUR XV match through injury while Imhoff made his debut, scoring a hattrick.

The darling of Argentine rugby from France 2007, Juan Martín Hernández has indeed not been selected for Rugby World Cup 2011. He is simply not going to be able to face England in the first match and so has been excluded. Coach, Santiago Phelan, said it was a very hard decision but at the end of the day he had to search for the best for the team as a whole. In place of El Mago is 22 year old Nicolás Sánchez who was a start for Los Pampas XV and will play in the French Top 14 for Bordeaux-Begles after New Zealand 2011. Suggesting he has big-boots to fill is true and he has the opportunity of a lifetime. But Sánchez, who has never played an international match against a team that will play at Rugby World Cup 2011, is to be the second choice flyhalf with Felipe Contepomi wearing the ten shirt and captaining Argentina. Despite being globally considered as a better player at inside centre, Contepomi, will indeed lead the team from pivot.

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The biggest surprize of all come at scrumhalf with Phelan leaving out, arguably, Argentina´s best player in this position, Agustín Figuerola. In place of Figuerola is Alfredo Lalanne who played very few matches last season for his English club, London Irish. Lalanne was man of the match for Argentina in the home win vs England in 2009 but other than that has been unable to perform regularly at the required level. He will be used as the reserve scrumhalf in place of Nicolas Vergallo. Elsewhere in the backs first choice outside centre, Gonzalo Tiesi, is under an injury cloud but has been selected nonetheless and should he be unavaliable for the first match of the tournament Argentina will go with either Marcelo Bosch or Agustín Gosio who has been named in the squad despite having no professional experience and has been picked over professional players including Rafael Carballo, Miguel Avramovic and Federico Martín Aramburu.

The selection of Juan Imhoff, amongst others, suggests that Phelan is not a traditionalist at all. He has dropped Lucas Borges and Rafael Carballo who have both scored tries for Los Pumas in recent years but both are significantly older and lack the share pace of Imhoff. He will join what can only be called a new-look back-three with Horacio Agulla being the only survivor from France 2007. The impressive Gonzalo Camacho is likely to start on one wing with Agulla and Imhoff fighting for the other spot. The fullback spot will go to Martín Rodríguez Gurruchaga with Lucas González Amorosino being his backup and also an option to start on the wing.

The frontrow is a different story entirely with the frontrow from France 2007 still intact despite all being mid-thirties or higher. Mario Ledesma is back for his fourth Rugby World Cup and has annoucnement his retirement to pursue a career in coaching with Stade Français. Rodrigo Roncero and Martín Scelzo join him in what may well be the oldest frontrow in the history of the Rugby World Cup. The best looseheadprop in England, Marcos Ayerza is also included as are the impressive young duo of Maximilano Bustos and Juan Figallo. Both are seemingly included for the match vs Romania so that Roncero and Scelzo can rest while Ayerza can play on either side of the scrum. Agustín Creevy´s move from the backrow to hooker can only be described as incredible as he has been selected as Argentina´s secnod hooker and will certinalyu push hard to start in the Pumas number 2 shirt. Both Eusebio Guiñazú and Andrés Bordoy have missed out on selection. Both can play either prop or hooker but rather than take either, Phelan has opted to go for two specialist loosehead props, two specialist tighthead props and one who can play on both sides at international level. It is a sign of things to come as Phelan is likely to play with two props on the bench and thus only two backs.

Secondrower Tomas Vallejos Cinalli has never played a full international match for Argentina. The Harlequins secondrower has been a constant performer but has not been amongst the best Argentine players in his position. His selection ahead of Santiago Guzmán and Esteban Lozada is a surprize but seems to be due to his professional experience. So much will depend on Patricio Albacete who is one of the worlds greatest secondrowers and the best Argentina has ever produced. His high workrate and lineout abilities will be crucial if Argentina are to go far in the tournament. He will be responsible for organizing everything in this area and will need solid support from Manuel Carizza and Manuel Galarza in the match day 22.

Two of Argentina´s stars from the Vodacom Cup have been included amongst the backrowers. Julio Farias Cabello and Leonardo Senatore join three French based players and a fourth who played last sesson for Agen. The inclusion of Farias is not so surprizing going on form as his workrate in the Vodacom Cup was outstanding and he was Argentinaá biggest ball carrier vs the CONSUR XV on Saturday. He is also an additional option for the secondrow. Senatore´s selection is in place of Genaro Fessia who has been a regular in Phelan´s teams since he took over from Marcelo Loffreda in early 2008.

Argentina Squad for New Zealand 2011

Hooker
Agustín Creevy (Montpellier, France)
Mario Ledesma (Clermont, France)

Loosehead Prop
Marcos Ayerza (Leicester Tigers, England)
Juan Figallo (Montpellier, France)
Rodrigo Roncero (Stade Français, France)

Tighthead Prop
Maximilano Bustos (Montpellier, France)
Martín Scelzo (Agen, France)

Secondrow
Patricio Albacete (Toulouse, France)
Manuel Carizza (Biarritz, France)
Mariano Galarza (Unattached)
Tomas Vallejos Cinalli (Harlequins, England)

Backrow
Alejandro Campos (Unattached)
Julio Farias Cabello (Tucumán R.C)
Juan Martín Fernández Lobbe vice-captain (Toulon, France)
Alvaro Galindo (Racing Metro, France)
Juan Manuel Leguizamón (Lyon OU, France)
Leonardo Senatore (G.E.R)

Scrumhalf
Alfredo Lalanne (London Irish, England)
Nicolás Vergallo (Toulouse, France)

Flyhalf
Felipe Contepomi captain (Stade Français, France)
Nicolás Sánchez (Bordeaux-Begles, France)

Centre
Marcelo Bosch (Biarritz, France)
Santi Fernández (Montpellier, France)
Agustín Gosio (Club Newman)
Gonzalo Tiesi (Stade Français, France)

Wing
Horacio Agulla (Leicester Tigers, England)
Gonzalo Camacho (Exeter Chiefs, England)
Juan Imhoff (Duendes R.C)

Fullback
Lucas González Amorosino (Montpellier, France)
Martín Rodríguez Gurruchaga (Stade Français, France)
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