Aviva Premiership Final - Tigers vs Saints

[racingmetrofan]

To be honest I've been at International matches, HEC matches and Rabo matches as well as lower league games for years and been close on the sideline for alot of Munster games I can say I've heard swearing and all that alot yes but never and I mean never to a ref. Yes sometimes you get the "whats that for" crap but never the issue of calling a ref an F-ing cheat. The swearing isn't the issue it was simply just adding on the issue of accusing a ref's integrity and putting his position in a vulnerable state. And if you do hang around places where this happens frequently then I'd say a) I agree with Smartcooky that your attitude stinks or b) your with a bad crowd and get out ASAP.

As you say how can Hartley say that well Hartley would know Barnes well as been a captain and Barnes been a ref in the league and Barnes had spoken to Hartley on numerous occasions. As in the whole debte that started in the kick directlty to touch. Barnes said the instruction enough times even saying it directly to Hartley as captain and what did Hartley do. Obviously tried to be smart and not instruct his player to listen.

I don't think the kick was the issue, the ref report shows most of Hartley's comments came around the scrums.

I dunno why again another person is suggesting I hang around places where it happens frequently. It is completely the opposite!!! I am saying that in high profile sporting finals, if someone loses their cool as Hartley did, they shouldn't get a red card. The factor that mitigates the swearing is the situation the player is in!!! A final shouldn't be decided on whether a player can hold his tongue before he gets into the dressing room at half time of not! THat is all there is to it.

 

[dullonien]

For some reason racingmetrofan you seem unable to grasp that allowing things like this would set rugby on the slippery slope towards a situation like football where players surround refs etc. Do you think players in football have always acted like they do towards refs? No they haven't, a lack of punishment for small indiscretions has lead to worse and worse attitudes. Allowing swearing and accusations of cheating is just giving other players precedent to do it themselves, after all if they let Hartley off the hook, then any future incidents could just cite this as precedent and get away with it as well.

We're not saying that if Hartley was let off, then next week rugby would be like football, but give it time and things could be heading in the same way if the rules were lapsed.

A big part of rugby is about being able to keep your cool in the heat of the moment. If a player can't, then there's no place for him on the pitch, as simple as that. In school, if we swore on the pitch, especially at an opposition player (no-one ever swore at the ref), our coach would drag us off the pitch and send us to the changing rooms. The next training session would be an absolute nightmare. If anything, professional players have a greater responsibility, a responsibility to the thousands of fans watching in the stands and on tv. Without the fans, the players wouldn't be able to do what they love for a living, they'd have to work and follow the rules their company set (swearing isn't tolerated in most businesses).

 

[headless]

So hartley is a thug!!!!! He shouldn't be on a rugby pitch!!!! So I ask again how about Cockerill, who is the figure head and the supposed leader of this bunch of rugby charletons, does he get away with his disgusting football like tirade towards the officials or should he be held too task. I suggest a lengthy ban from all of rugby and attendance at an anger management course. Or would that be too bold for the boring old farts at the RFU to consider.
Cockerill should get a life time ban.

 

[dullonien]

So hartley is a thug!!!!! He shouldn't be on a rugby pitch!!!! So I ask again how about Cockerill, who is the figure head and the supposed leader of this bunch of rugby charletons, does he get away with his disgusting football like tirade towards the officials or should he be held too task. I suggest a lengthy ban from all of rugby and attendance at an anger management course. Or would that be too bold for the boring old farts at the RFU to consider.
Cockerill should get a life time ban.

I gather that you don't like Leicester?

I agree that Cockerill needs to calm down, and if he did swear at officials etc. he should be punished. But ultimately, that's a different argument than the one we're debating here. It has no relevancy to the Hartley incident, other than Leicester were the opposing team.

 

[racingmetrofan]

For some reason racingmetrofan you seem unable to grasp that allowing things like this would set rugby on the slippery slope towards a situation like football where players surround refs etc. Do you think players in football have always acted like they do towards refs? No they haven't, a lack of punishment for small indiscretions has lead to worse and worse attitudes. Allowing swearing and accusations of cheating is just giving other players precedent to do it themselves, after all if they let Hartley off the hook, then any future incidents could just cite this as precedent and get away with it as well.

We're not saying that if Hartley was let off, then next week rugby would be like football, but give it time and things could be heading in the same way if the rules were lapsed.

A big part of rugby is about being able to keep your cool in the heat of the moment. If a player can't, then there's no place for him on the pitch, as simple as that. In school, if we swore on the pitch, especially at an opposition player (no-one ever swore at the ref), our coach would drag us off the pitch and send us to the changing rooms. The next training session would be an absolute nightmare. If anything, professional players have a greater responsibility, a responsibility to the thousands of fans watching in the stands and on tv. Without the fans, the players wouldn't be able to do what they love for a living, they'd have to work and follow the rules their company set (swearing isn't tolerated in most businesses).

The irony is with that sort of alleged swearing at the ref, nobody sees it or hears about it unless Barnes gives a red card for it. So how will an offense that nobody notices encourage people to do something that they don't know happened (if Barnes thinks 'its a final, things didn't go his way, I'll have a chat with him at half time about it)?

 

[psychic duck]

The irony is with that sort of alleged swearing at the ref, nobody sees it or hears about it unless Barnes gives a red card for it. So how will an offense that nobody notices encourage people to do something that they don't know happened (if Barnes thinks 'its a final, things didn't go his way, I'll have a chat with him at half time about it)?

Because chances are if he got away with it a couple of times. The opposition might think they too can start doing that sort of stuff to the ref if the opposition are. And the player might continue doing that sort of stuff and the referee's job made even more difficult. It's a slippery slope, and Barnes was right to put a stop to it, especially considering he gave him a warning that couldn't have been clearer.

 

[dullonien]

The irony is with that sort of alleged swearing at the ref, nobody sees it or hears about it unless Barnes gives a red card for it. So how will an offense that nobody notices encourage people to do something that they don't know happened (if Barnes thinks 'its a final, things didn't go his way, I'll have a chat with him at half time about it)?

Barnes had to do something, he couldn't just ignore it. Whether that was a penalty, a yellow or red card we would have been aware of it. I'm pretty sure it was caught on the ref-mic as well. It's about the precedent it sets.

 

[headless]

I gather that you don't like Leicester?

I agree that Cockerill needs to calm down, and if he did swear at officials etc. he should be punished. But ultimately, that's a different argument than the one we're debating here. It has no relevancy to the Hartley incident, other than Leicester were the opposing team.

IF ??? Verbal abuse doesn't have to include swearing. His thuggish outburst to the officials which was broadcast and visible throughout the world unlike Dylan Hartley's alleged abuse which was not at all apparent too the viewing public, must be debated and action must be taken.
Cockerill was the first man to be sent off in a premiership final lets not forget that fact. His behaviour will cause more issues at grass roots rugby than Hartley's alleged behaviour when loutish parents and coaches see this as acceptable.
I give it too you that as the RFU have no balls let Leicester tigers discipline this man themselves. Instant dismissal the only option.

As for Leicester I have no respect for a team who has no sporting morales or grace.

 

[dullonien]

IF ??? Verbal abuse doesn't have to include swearing. His thuggish outburst to the officials which was broadcast and visible throughout the world unlike Dylan Hartley's alleged abuse which was not at all apparent too the viewing public, must be debated and action must be taken.
Cockerill was the first man to be sent off in a premiership final lets not forget that fact. His behaviour will cause more issues at grass roots rugby than Hartley's alleged behaviour when loutish parents and coaches see this as acceptable.
I give it too you that as the RFU have no balls let Leicester tigers discipline this man themselves. Instant dismissal the only option.

Don't worry I agree with you regarding Cockerill. The reason I said if, is because I missed the incident, I stepped out of the room. Just think you may be going a little OTT is all.

 

[Saintjay]

Keith Wood hit the nail on the head last night on the Lions special. It was obvious Dylan lost it, he had gone over the edge and was fired up beyond reasoning. I can't help but feel the Saints management should take some of the blame and not let the emotions over run the team. Yes send them out fired up but not like a bunch of loons. Gone are the days of calling 99 and smaking the nearest bloke to you.

As for Cokerill I fail to see the difference. Person A swears at match officials they get banned. Stands to reason that if person B commits the same offence then they should to. If kids might follow Dylan and tarnish the game, people will follow Cockerill as well.

 

[dullonien]

Just had a look at this Cockerill incident and I have no idea what people are on about. He has a somewhat animated debate with the officials on the sidelines, but it didn't look like anything more than that. There's no evidence he was being abusive, just animated as I said. Some people are more animated in the way they speak though, using hand gestures etc. Ultimately its up to the officials, if they thought he was being abusive, they would have reported him.

 

[Thingimubob]

I don't think the kick was the issue, the ref report shows most of Hartley's comments came around the scrums.

I dunno why again another person is suggesting I hang around places where it happens frequently. It is completely the opposite!!! I am saying that in high profile sporting finals, if someone loses their cool as Hartley did, they shouldn't get a red card. The factor that mitigates the swearing is the situation the player is in!!! A final shouldn't be decided on whether a player can hold his tongue before he gets into the dressing room at half time of not! THat is all there is to it.

I'm sorry but that's a ridiculous way of looking at it! Why should the rules be different for a final than the regular season?! If a player can't hack the pressure and then takes it out on the referee by verbally abusing him, then he shouldn't be playing in a damn final in the first place! I see what you mean by trying to keep the game as a spectacle, but rules are rules! And anyway, the game can still be held as a spectacle, look at that infamous Wales vs France semi final - even with 14 men Wales would have won if their goal kicking was just a tiny bit more clinical!

 

[Saintjay]

Just had a look at this Cockerill incident and I have no idea what people are on about. He has a somewhat animated debate with the officials on the sidelines, but it didn't look like anything more than that. There's no evidence he was being abusive, just animated as I said. Some people are more animated in the way they speak though, using hand gestures etc. Ultimately its up to the officials, if they thought he was being abusive, they would have reported him.

I understand your point but every Saturday you see footballers and managers getting animated at the ref. Most are not abusive or swearing directly at the officials. I think it is a very thin line to be accepting of managers who are animated confronting officials. I wonder if a player would be carded if he approached the referee in the same manner.

I know I got carded once for being animated at the ref. Other than the referee having no powers on the side line. I can't see how Cockerill behaved very different to how I did.

 

[dullonien]

I understand your point but every Saturday you see footballers and managers getting animated at the ref. Most are not abusive or swearing directly at the officials. I think it is a very thin line to be accepting of managers who are animated confronting officials. I wonder if a player would be carded if he approached the referee in the same manner.

I know I got carded once for being animated at the ref. Other than the referee having no powers on the side line. I can't see how Cockerill behaved very different to how I did.

Yeh, on second thoughts, I do agree with you somewhat. It's a fine line and Cockerill probably crossed it. The main problem was how long he continued for, if he hadn't of come back for a second go it would have been fine.

I'm not sure what he was angry about tbh. The tackle from Lawes was fine. It was a tad late, but committed himself. I wouldn't have even given a penalty, it's simply the risk Flood takes when playing so flat.

 

[smartcooky]

THis is absolutely mad! Every time I say something about ONE player swearing ONCE at a ref in a ONE OFF FINAL you immediately start mentioning football and loads of players surrounding the referee, almost making physical contact with him and screaming and swearing all the time.

Its not an issue where it is either one extreme or the other!!!

Perhaps you are not mature enough to understand the meaning of the word "precedent".

[TEXTAREA]Definition of PRECEDENT

1: an earlier occurrence of something similar.

2: something done or said that may serve as an example or rule to authorize or justify a subsequent act of the same or an analogous kind.

3: the convention established by such a precedent or by long practice.

4: a person or thing that serves as a model.

[/TEXTAREA]

How do you think the way footballers treat their referees got the way it is now? Do you think it was always like that?

Well I can tell you it wasn't. Prior to the 1980s, if a player committed any form of dissent such as back-chatting a referee they got a free kick given against them, if they verbally contested a decision or argued with the referee they risked a yellow card. Doing what Hartley did would certainly have earned them a red one.

The situation we have in football today is a direct result of players being allowed to get away with more and more; each subsequent bit of bad behaviour, slightly worse than the previous one, goes unpunished, until players eventually come to think that the referee is fair game.

This is called "precedent". which boils down to "he got away with it, so should I"

Precedent! Think about it! If Hartley was allowed to get away with what he did, it sends a clear message out to tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of younger, lower level players, that they can get away with it too, that calling a referee a "fecking cheat" is acceptable.

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH PROFESSIONALISM IN THE SPORT. Football has been a professional sport for nearly 130 years, yet its problems with referee abuse began only 20 to 30 years ago and has become very much worse in the last few years. Unsurprisingly, it followed the general trend of children becoming less respectful of their elders and authority, but that is a story for a separate discussion.

Thankfully, Rugby Union has always bucked the trend towards referee abuse, and long may it continue to do so!

 

[Howzy]

It doesn't matter now he hasn't appealed against his ban so all is good

 

[smartcooky]

a big part of rugby is about being able to keep your cool in the heat of the moment. If a player can't, then there's no place for him on the pitch, as simple as that. in school, if we swore on the pitch, especially at an opposition player (no-one ever swore at the ref), our coach would drag us off the pitch and send us to the changing rooms. The next training session would be an absolute nightmare. if anything, professional players have a greater responsibility, a responsibility to the thousands of fans watching in the stands and on tv. Without the fans, the players wouldn't be able to do what they love for a living, they'd have to work and follow the rules their company set (swearing isn't tolerated in most businesses).

^^^^This in spades!!!

 

[bertiec]

Why was Cockers protesting, if Flood had come off when a penalty had been given Lawes should have been carded. He is not right to be in the face of the guys on the side line. Anyway if this had happened in France the courts would have made it a one week ban (a la Dupuy) farcical state of affairs. Racingmetrofan, we do not need thugs cheats junkies or gob sh**** of any form what so every in our game. If it becomes common place, give up and play tiddly winks, until your mind set lets that become the same.:ranting:

 

[racingmetrofan]

Why was Cockers protesting, if Flood had come off when a penalty had been given Lawes should have been carded. He is not right to be in the face of the guys on the side line. Anyway if this had happened in France the courts would have made it a one week ban (a la Dupuy) farcical state of affairs. Racingmetrofan, we do not need thugs cheats junkies or gob sh**** of any form what so every in our game. If it becomes common place, give up and play tiddly winks, until your mind set lets that become the same.:ranting:

And the best way to stop the sport being like that is to penalize punches far more severely than swearing at the ref.

 

[dullonien]

And the best way to stop the sport being like that is to penalize punches far more severely than swearing at the ref.

I'd prefer my future child get into a scrap on the school play-ground than swear at a teacher. Getting into scraps, especially during a physical game of rugby or similar happens. Being abusive to a person of authority is rarely justifiable and imo shows nothing but a complete lack of respect and is a loutish thing to do.