England 2021/22

[BPM]

Well I still think he's better than 'decent'.

We consistently produce good 13s, we just don't seem to be able to replicate that at 12.

I'm not sure why that is and if I were a talented young centre coming through, I'd be looking to specialise at 12 knowing that I'd be in a good spot for England opportunities.

It doesn't help that a lot of the 12s playing in the Premiership aren't English or EQ, but with the exception of maybe Redpath and Williams, the 12s we've had at U20 level have mostly disappeared from view so I think the problem is earlier in the development phase.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Slade seems to get a lot of excuses made for him. Playing alongside Farrell doesn't cause him to make basic individual errors. He often makes basic errors like knock ons and poor forward passes and that seems to have been irrespective of his centre partner.

Also, when he's been the 'senior' centre alongside less experienced players, he hasn't really looked like it.

Don't get me wrong, I rate him but that's on the promise of him bringing his Exeter form to the England team which doesn't happen often enough for him to keep getting starts ahead of Marchant etc.

There's some truth in that. But part of it will be him putting pressure on himself to try to make things happen with the little decent ball he does get which will lead to errors.

Marchant went well last year for Quins but worrying about 13 until we've fixed the problems inside (which start at SH) is like rearranging the deckchairs in the ***anic.

Put Slade in a well oiled machine and he'll look as good as anyone.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Is 12 the hardest position in WR at the moment? They often have to smash first phase ball up, expected to smash people in the tackle. Expected to have a good kicking and passing game and expected to be creative as well. They probably have the least amount of time to make decisions these days with defences straight up on them.

 

[BPM]

Put Slade in a well oiled machine and he'll look as good as anyone.

But he's had 40 caps to show that and frankly hasn't done so. If we were talking about 10-15 caps, fair enough, but 40 is a good opportunity to show what you can do.

I'm perfectly prepared to cut him some slack for the periods where our attack has been poor or when we've kicked almost as much as the Lions team, but that doesn't explain why he's still been underwhelming during the periods our attack has fired. He's had good games and good moments here and there but not enough to block potentially better players IMO.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

But he's had 40 caps to show that and frankly hasn't done so. If we were talking about 10-15 caps, fair enough, but 40 is a good opportunity to show what you can do.

I'm perfectly prepared to cut him some slack for the periods where our attack has been poor or when we've kicked almost as much as the Lions team, but that doesn't explain why he's still been underwhelming during the periods our attack has fired. He's had good games and good moments here and there but not enough to block potentially better players IMO.

I wouldn't throw my toys out of the pram at Marchant given a shot but it's not a priority in my book. The perception / reporting of some players tends to concentrate on the positive, while others tend to concentrate on the negative. I think Slade falls into the latter camp, possibly because his style is fairly languid and he makes it all look so easy when he really does fire.

You know how I love my stats…..

Slade - 40 caps 81.25% win rate

Manu - 43 caps 61.55% win rate

So Slade is obviously more effective. QED

 

[BPM]

From now on you have the job as Henry Slade's chief excuse-maker.

Re. your stats, injuries mean that Manu's 43 caps span a 10 year period. I think you have to recognise that we were a much poorer side under Johnson and for most of Lancaster's reign than we are now, factually and subjectively.

All but 2 of Slade's caps have come in the Eddie Jones era where our overall win record has been higher so while your stats fit your argument, they don't convince me …

I'd argue the perception is that Slade is a very talented player who hasn't really lived up to his potential or shown his club form at test level. Personally, I think that's a fair assessment.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I was being facetious with the stats (around 86.47% facetious with a +/- 3% margin of error ). I obviously rate Slade a little more than you do though so we'll have to agree to disagree.

If Jones was watching the Lions series I hope his one takeaway is that a FB has to be sound in the air. We have one of those, a young big unit playing for Leicester who has also got a decent all round game. Steward and Dombrandt for me are the 2 that must be fast tracked into the AIs starting XVs (they both deserve their places now and while they won't be the finished articles yet, both could be sensational in a couple of years). Smith, Randall and Radwan should also be involved. And let's just choose a 12 and stick with him whether it's Devoto, Lawrence or whoever.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

The only thing Jones will take on board, is that if Farrells not at 12, teams lose.

 

[higgik]

I was being facetious with the stats (around 86.47% facetious with a +/- 3% margin of error ). I obviously rate Slade a little more than you do though so we'll have to agree to disagree.

If Jones was watching the Lions series I hope his one takeaway is that a FB has to be sound in the air. We have one of those, a young big unit playing for Leicester who has also got a decent all round game. Steward and Dombrandt for me are the 2 that must be fast tracked into the AIs starting XVs (they both deserve their places now and while they won't be the finished articles yet, both could be sensational in a couple of years). Smith, Randall and Radwan should also be involved. And let's just choose a 12 and stick with him whether it's Devoto, Lawrence or whoever.

Yes, and by having a 'runner' at 15, me and a 2nd playmaker is required at 13 to be able to get outside the defence.

A backline of
9 Randall
10 Smith
11 Radwan
12 Lawrence
13 Slade
14 Watson
15 Steward

Would be really interesting for AI
If going for a playmaker at 15 then there needs to be power in the Centres, so swap Marchant in for Slade and Malins in for Steward.
9 Randall
10 Smith
11 Radwan
12 Lawrence
13 Marchant
14 Watson
15 Malins

 

[Reiser99]

For me the issue is Farrell. Whether it's how he's developed or rigidly sticking to Jones's kicking plan, he's holding back the team at 10 or 12 and Jones is avoiding exploring genuine options.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Lawrence is a 13 I don't really like the idea of shoehorning him in at 12.
The reason Manu works at 12 is because he is a route 1 ball runner you could have him running into the forwards and he will still 8/10 times make ground so regardless he will have at least 2 players marking him.
But Lawrence works best against the outside backs. He doesn't have Manu's sheer size but he has a slight more speed about him.

 

[Nudger]

For what its worth
Mako lcd sincs
Maro hill
Lawes curry dom brandt
Youngs smith
Lawrence slade
Daley watson stuart

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

For what its worth
Mako lcd sincs
Maro hill
Lawes curry dom brandt
Youngs smith
Lawrence slade
Daley watson stuart

Just no to Lawes. A small period of doing ok against SA does not override the years of a lock at 6 being an utterly failed experiment. We aren't lacking for flankers any more so there really is no excuse to do this.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It's a very realistic side in terms of what EJ will go with, but far from our best IMO

 

[Geordie]

I wonder where Odogwu will end up when he returns. Do you see him moving to centre or staying on the wing?

 

[ncurd]

Just no to Lawes. A small period of doing ok against SA does not override the years of a lock at 6 being an utterly failed experiment. We aren't lacking for flankers any more so there really is no excuse to do this.

I don't know how we move away from Curry/Underhill as our first choice flankers, when fit. Admittedly I didn't watch the second test but I was barely aware of him in the third so whilst he was good in that bit the second half of the first test it still doesn't feel like a resounding success. All he really did was prove he probably should of playing in the 2nd row instead of AWJ and get a proper flanker at 6.

Curry had a poor Lions tour but I suspect his stock is more than high enough for England for now.

Reality is our pack is pretty good, could we have Kruis back please though? Need to fix No. 8 but it is not in the sire straights the backs are with Youngs/Farrell and certainly with Farrell until we drop him completely he'll completely compromised our attack. Then we might be able fix issues at center once we are aware of what they really not what Farrell creates.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I wonder where Odogwu will end up when he returns. Do you see him moving to centre or staying on the wing?

Italy

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Curry had a poor Lions tour but I suspect his stock is more than high enough for England for now.

Very true. Interesting though that as well as being below par against the Boks in this series he also wasn't able to influence things against them in the RWC final. Far from alone on either count of course.

I still want to see what Willis can do. No guarantees that he'll come back as good as before but fingers crossed he does.

Marler's obviously our best all round LH, but who knows whether he'll be available. Time for Genge to get the shirt.

And who knows what Barbeary will do. Hopefully stay fit for one and also nail his colours to the hooking mast.

The row's another vexed area, but we definitely need some youngsters to step up. Mainly looking at you, Isiekwe.

 

[Geordie]

The row's another vexed area, but we definitely need some youngsters to step up. Mainly looking at you, Isiekwe.

I wonder if Saracens will play Itoje and Isiekwe in the engine room this season. Isiekwe has every attribute to be a top class lock...and hes only 22/23 isnt he? Cold still come through.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I wonder if Saracens will play Itoje and Isiekwe in the engine room this season. Isiekwe has every attribute to be a top class lock...and hes only 22/23 isnt he? Cold still come through.

I hope so. No Skelton or Kruis around to complicate things.