England EPS 2016/17 season.

[BPM]

I don't think the Lions tour changes much to be honest?

George is the obvious one putting his hand up for a change in the pecking order, but I'm not sure how much Eddie will have learned that he didn't already know? George has always been an extremely reliable, solid performer at all levels but the choice of Hartley ahead of him is clearly being made for other reasons. How long that continues is anyone's guess.

Simialrly, taking the second test for example, the contribution from Itoje, Farrell, Daly, Watson, Sinckler and Lawes was pretty much exactlily what we would expect from them in an England shirt, so no real change IMO.

Te'o's performances across the tour have maybe given Eddie some food for thought, but ultimately, Gatland's decision to play Farrell at 12 basically echoes Eddie's own.

Kruis had the worst game I've ever seen from him in the first test, but I would regard that as a blip and I can't imagine it will have any influence on his place for England.

As for the others, Cole, Haskell, Marler, Nowell etc. haven't been outstandingly good, nor have they been poor (Nowell redeemed himself). Again no change.

I'm not expecting sweeping changes to the EPS but, I hope Eddie keeps to his promise and rests our Lions for the AIs. I think the squad that toured Argentina is good enough to beat Argentina (again), Australia and Samoa, particularly if we can add some absentees/fit again players such as Billy, Youngs, Cowan-Dickie/Taylor and Marchant.

I'm hoping the success of Wilson, Underhill and Tom Curry (potentially Ben too) marks the end of the road for Wood etc.

 

[BPM]

Winners:

• Jamie George - He's in a different class to Hartley ATM. If he's starting for the Lions he has to start for England. Hartley's time is over.
• Courtney Lawes - I suspect EJ will be unwilling to break up the Krutoje pairing but Lawes has been in outstanding form and really deserves to be taken into consideration to start.
• Currys and Underhill - Tom and Sam were both very impressive with the time they got in an England shirt. Haskell's lacklustre Lions tour may see any of the 3 young 7s in with a chance taking his shirt.
• Mark Wilson - Can't see him getting into the starting team but he had a very good tour and has proven to be more than capable back row cover or to fill the 20 shirt.
• Ben Te'o - Has been incredibly impressive on the Lions tour. EJ must be seriously questioning whether he should replace Ford in the England team.
• Anthony Watson - Showed with his limited time at FB for the Lions that it's where he plays his best rugby and where he should be starting.

Losers:

• Dylan Hartley - Simply not good enough anymore. George, LCD, Taylor and arguably Youngs are all better hookers now.
• James Haskell - Lacklustre Lions tour.
• George Ford - Te'o's impressive Lions tour could well see Ford dropped to the bench.
• Mike Brown - Had a good 2nd test but that doesn't make up for him being pretty poor for the last couple of years. Watson is just better.

Disappointments:

• Ellis Genge - Clearly has a future ahead of him but failed to make the impact that many expected him to in Argentina.
• Harry Williams - Did very well in the loose but was dominated in the scrums.
• Henry Slade - Even as a Chiefs supporter I've said for a while now that Slade shouldn't be in the England Squad. He had 2 poor tests, apart from that piece of magic in the 1st. Arguably played out of position but don't think anyone really knows what his position is.
• Denny Solomona - Incredible attacking weapon but that defence... clearly needs more time.
• Eddie Jones - Wasted the opportunity to test players such as Maunder, Earle and Cokonasiga. IMO the distribution of game time could've been handled much better. I'd have rather lost the series and developed some young players than win and come away with no real new knowledge of the quality of our youngsters.

Yeah - I pretty much agree with all of this.

I'm not sure if I'd go so far as to say Genge and Williams disappointed me, both had some good moments but neither really seized the opportunity quite as much as I thought they might.

Realistically both are playing to be third choice, but Collier would certainly have challenged Williams IMO.

100% with you on Slade. If we'd had a bench option at 13, I think he'd have been lucky to have made it back on to the pitch for the second half of the second test. He was shockingly bad. I suspect Slade, Lozowski and Francis are competing for two places and based upon the Argentina tour, Slade would be the one to lose out I reckon.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

George played absolute blinders in Arg, I can't see him getting dropped anytime soon.

Biggest question for me is where does the captaincy go if George finally overtakes Hartley?
Itoje? Farrell?

 

[BPM]

Presumably your first sentence is about George Ford and the second is about Jamie George?

If Hartley is dropped Farrell is as good as nailed-on as captain I'd wager.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

George played absolute blinders in Arg, I can't see him getting dropped anytime soon.

Biggest question for me is where does the captaincy go if George finally overtakes Hartley?
Itoje? Farrell?

George undoubtedly played blinders, as he has been known to sometimes do, my issue is how often he goes missing in big matches. I think a lot of the time in big matches Faz is very much in a situation where he's picking up Ford's slack rather than being a second playmaker. I'm not saying we should drop him, but I do think that it's definitely worth considering. Ford can win games but he's just too inconsistent for my liking.

On captaincy, has Itoje ever even been vice captain? Considering EJ names 3/4 vices each series the fact that Itoje's never been one of them really suggests that EJ doesn't think he's ready. It's easy to forget that even at the end of the Lions tour Itoje will only have 15 international caps. He is still very new to the international stage and I'd agree with EJ that he's probably not ready for captaincy. Faz would be my choice.

 

[BPM]

Crazy to think how important Itoje is with only 12 England caps to his name TBH.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

If Ford can carry this England form to Leicester, then i think he might seriously have a chance of keeping his starting 10 esp since he will be playing with Youngs week in and week out. (when was the last time England had 9 and 10 playing for the same club (in a capped game)

Really think that it might be Te'o V JJ for 13 rather than Ford 10 or Te'o 12.
For me if George starts over Hartley, Hartley has to be dropped from the 23. He isn't a impact player and both Cowan-Dickie and Taylor bring more impact than him. (Even Heywood and McGuigan do aswell).

Would also like to see Sinckler coming on at 50 rather than 70 in the AI's.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

A strong start to the season could see Sinckler starting by the 6N, his stock has risen massively.
Cole is off the boil anyway, But the amount of rugby he plays in a season doesn't help at all - Chuck a lions tour on top of that and I could see him having a season to forget next year.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

A strong start to the season could see Sinckler starting by the 6N, his stock has risen massively.
Cole is off the boil anyway, But the amount of rugby he plays in a season doesn't help at all - Chuck a lions tour on top of that and I could see him having a season to forget next year.

Can't imagine EJ will view Sinckler as anything other than a "finisher" for a while, regardless of form.

 

[BPM]

I'd agree with all of that Tigs Man, although if Eddie does rest the Lions players, Sinckler might not be in consideration.

My understanding is that he's looking at it on a case by case basis, so it may be that the mid week players are available but the test players aren't.

Assuming that is the case, I'd like to see the following for the AIs:

1. Marler
2. Hartley*
3. Williams
4. Launchbury
5. Lawes
6. Robshaw
7. Underhill
8. B. Vunipola
9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. May
12. Lozowski
13. Joseph
14. Nowell
15. Brown

16. Cowan-Dickie/Taylor
17. Genge
18. Collier
19. Ewels
20. Wilson or a Curry
21. Maunder
22. Marchant
23. Haley

*100% agree with Tigs Man's point on Hartley but if George is rested, I can't see him being left out for anyone else.

I've also rested Cole and Haskell becasue I don't think we have anything to learn/gain from playing them.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I'd agree with all of that Tigs Man, although if Eddie does rest the Lions players, Sinckler might not be in consideration.

My understanding is that he's looking at it on a case by case basis, so it may be that the mid week players are available but the test players aren't.

Assuming that is the case, I'd like to see the following for the AIs:

1. Marler
2. Hartley*
3. Williams
4. Launchbury
5. Lawes
6. Robshaw
7. Underhill
8. B. Vunipola
9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. May
12. Lozowski
13. Joseph
14. Nowell
15. Brown

16. Cowan-Dickie/Taylor
17. Genge
18. Collier
19. Ewels
20. Wilson or a Curry
21. Maunder
22. Marchant
23. Haley

*100% agree with Tigs Man's point on Hartley but if George is rested, I can't see him being left out for anyone else.

I've also rested Cole and Haskell becasue I don't think we have anything to learn/gain from playing them.

At 12 I'd rather see Francis than Loz. Francis impressed more in Argentina and is more of a 12 than Loz IMO. I'd also say that not havingany 10 or 12 cover on the bench is risky, I'd rather see the one of Loz or Francis that isn't starting in there instead of Haley, or preferably Devoto but I can't see that happening.

 

[NDC89]

Considering EJ has said he will be resting Lions (Maybe bench spots for those that haven't played too much) what would people like to see as their 23 for the opening game against Argentina at Twickenham?

We should be looking to put a marker down since we beat them at their place with a comfortable win. Though if they have a really good RC then just winning maybe the target. I'd like to see:

1. Genge
2. Hartley
3. Williams
4. Launchbury
5. Ewels
6. Robshaw
7. Curry/Underhill
8. B Vunipola
9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. May
12. Francis
13. Slade? (Not sure on this due Francis being a playmaker type centre but can't think of anyone really while resting Lions to a bench spot at the most)
14. Roko (Ok, I may be biased for Bath here)
15. Brown

16. LCD / Taylor (whoever is in better form I suppose, but I like LCD as a player)
17. Marler
18. Sinckler
19. Curry/Underhill
21. Maunder
22. Lozowski
23. JJ

 

[ncurd]

I don't see the breakup of the Ford/Farrell combination anytime soon its been instrumental to our success over the past 19 months. As noted Te'o/JJ might be the more interesting battle going forward in terms of who gets the 13 shirt. I don't think we'll be touching the back line much there either and I still think of Te'o as one hell of a impact player to bring on in the last 30-20 minutes. He still doesn't do anything for me against fresh legs.

The real question is whether Watson's brief showing at FB will prove to Jones to finally drop Brown.....mind you he has learnt passing and if he carries that on forwards he might not go as quickly as we thought. Finishing has been Brown's problem for a long time not his ability to actually make a break.

That leave George V Hartley and George's performance on Saturday for a full 80 mins and in general will surely see a changing of the guard.

Who takes the captaincy from there I'm unsure as surely we are looking at a caretaker until Itoje is ready (needs another season or two).

 

[BPM]

At 12 I'd rather see Francis than Loz. Francis impressed more in Argentina and is more of a 12 than Loz IMO. I'd also say that not havingany 10 or 12 cover on the bench is risky, I'd rather see the one of Loz or Francis that isn't starting in there instead of Haley, or preferably Devoto but I can't see that happening.

Yeah. That's probably fair.

I want to see Marchant get a run out so I was perhaps trying to force him in to the 23. I'd be happy with Francis at 12 and Lozowski in the 23 shirt instead of Haley.

I'd go with that side for Argentina and Australia but I want to see a slightly more experimental side against Samoa. In that game, I'd start LCD or Taylor with the other on the bench and I'd start Marchant at 13 and Haley at 15. Then I'd look to bring Genge and Maunder on fairly early in the second half.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Personally i rather see
11. Watson
14. Nowell
15. Daly

Just because i want Daly in the team but don't think he is as good on the wing as Watson.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

maybe for Samoa (probably a bit overly experimental):
1.Genge
2. Cowan-Dickie
3. Collier
4. Launchbury
5. Isiekwe
6. Curry
7. Underwood
8. J.Chisholm (probably not and very biased, but after a stunning last campaign I would love to see him in that back row)
9. Youngs
10. Slade
11. Coakisanga
12. Francis
13. Marchant
14. Earle
15. Woodward (just to get him capped cause he's quite good)
16. Buchanan
17. Mullan
18. Ford-Robinson
19. Ewels
20. Clifford
21. Maunder
22. Devoto (give tuilagi a chance if fit.... so probably not)
23. Solomona

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I would love for the day we have a fully fit Manu @ 13 and we can sub he off for T'eo with 20 to go or something.

That thought gives me a warm tingling feeling.

honestly i would love to see
9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. May
12. Faz
13. Manu
14. Watson
15. Daly

21. Robson/Maunder
22. Te'o
23. Nowell

 

[Goodey]

Winners:

• Jamie George - He's in a different class to Hartley ATM. If he's starting for the Lions he has to start for England. Hartley's time is over.
• Courtney Lawes - I suspect EJ will be unwilling to break up the Krutoje pairing but Lawes has been in outstanding form and really deserves to be taken into consideration to start.
• Currys and Underhill - Tom and Sam were both very impressive with the time they got in an England shirt. Haskell's lacklustre Lions tour may see any of the 3 young 7s in with a chance taking his shirt.
• Mark Wilson - Can't see him getting into the starting team but he had a very good tour and has proven to be more than capable back row cover or to fill the 20 shirt.
• Ben Te'o - Has been incredibly impressive on the Lions tour. EJ must be seriously questioning whether he should replace Ford in the England team.
• Anthony Watson - Showed with his limited time at FB for the Lions that it's where he plays his best rugby and where he should be starting.

Losers:

• Dylan Hartley - Simply not good enough anymore. George, LCD, Taylor and arguably Youngs are all better hookers now.
• James Haskell - Lacklustre Lions tour.
• George Ford - Te'o's impressive Lions tour could well see Ford dropped to the bench.
• Mike Brown - Had a good 2nd test but that doesn't make up for him being pretty poor for the last couple of years. Watson is just better.

Disappointments:

• Ellis Genge - Clearly has a future ahead of him but failed to make the impact that many expected him to in Argentina.
• Harry Williams - Did very well in the loose but was dominated in the scrums.
• Henry Slade - Even as a Chiefs supporter I've said for a while now that Slade shouldn't be in the England Squad. He had 2 poor tests, apart from that piece of magic in the 1st. Arguably played out of position but don't think anyone really knows what his position is.
• Denny Solomona - Incredible attacking weapon but that defence... clearly needs more time.
• Eddie Jones - Wasted the opportunity to test players such as Maunder, Earle and Cokonasiga. IMO the distribution of game time could've been handled much better. I'd have rather lost the series and developed some young players than win and come away with no real new knowledge of the quality of our youngsters.

Largely agree.

Think Haskell has been fine on the Lions tour, has done pretty much what was asked of him which is to play 80 minute midweek games and make tackles. I don't particularly rate him as I don't like his attacking game, but he can do a job and we don't need to rush Curry.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

i hope by the end of next season England play
1. Genge
2. George
3. Sinckler

At least once.

 

[Goodey]

Genge is such an immature player. Runs away from support, poor discipline, etc. Want to see him put in some smart performances before he comes back to play for England.